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What are these advantages that private schools supposedly have?


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That a small rural public school made it thru the toughest class in football to have a chance!!

What makes you think 3A is the "toughest class in football"?  I mean, I don't disagree that Chatard's team this year belongs in the discussion of best team in all classes.  But, aside from that, I'd guess that virtually any other 3A team wouldn't have fared well playing in 5A or 6A.

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Never said they take kids from all over to line the sideline.......but could if they wanted too!!

But, if they don't (and, you're right, they don't), what's the point of even saying this?

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May not cap their enrollments, in your opinion......but perception is reality, some schools never seem to grow when every other schools in the region are !!

No, reality is reality.  Perceptions, on the other hand, are often distorted.

I can't speak for any other school, but my P/P's enrollment has shrunk by about 25% since I went there.  And, when I went there, we had never even gotten to a football state final.  In the past 11 years, we've been 5 times, winning twice....and with significantly less enrollment.

If you mentioned to our president or principal anything about "capping" enrollment, they'd laugh in your face while fighting off tears.  The truth is that they're not far from desperate for more enrollments.

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2 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

Serious question........how does this pertain to the advantage a P/P school has over a public school

Has everything to do with everything. CYO is one of the best feeder systems in the entire state. You have 7 or 8 schools that feed into Chatard and they all start out playing as 3rd and 4th graders with and against each other. Everyone gets to play and they run the same schemes as the high school. It's not uncommon to get 4 QB's or 4 RB's or 4 of whatever who are all really good and who have all been the best players on their grade school teams for 5 or 6 years. It promotes competition. Having one middle school weeds as opposed to 7 or 8 weeds out the competition and players quit due to lack of playing time before they ever fully develop. That's why you see so many kids on Chatard's roster relative to their enrollment.

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15 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I try not to get frustrated. Got to keep in mind that we have new people on the GID from time to time, so when the same old trite arguments — which have been thoroughly debunked time and time again — show up, I just breathe deeply and read on. 

Just out of curiosity, which are the rehashed arguments that have been thoroughly debunked here?

You can't really debunk an opinion -- although you can certainly debunk arguments made to support one.

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13 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

May not cap their enrollments, in your opinion......but perception is reality, some schools never seem to grow when every other schools in the region are !!

I honestly think you might be the one a little tender in certain areas........I mean to think that a country boy from down south, who is public school born a raised would have the audacity to question the likes of you.......  

 

I know you want to make Perception Reality but it really isn't. You have Heritage Hills. The kids from that elementary and middle school system will go to Heritage Hills. The student body may ebb and flow. I am in no way affiliated with Chatard. That being said there are reasons the student body doesn't grow and it has nothing to do with athletics and padding their trophy shelf.

Chatard sits 3 miles from Cathedral, 8 miles from Brebeuf, 5 miles from Lawrence Central, 7 miles from Lawrence North, 5 miles from Heritage Christian, 4 miles from North Central. There are feeder schools into Chatard 10 North deanery schools K-8 to be exact. The High SChools mentioned above all may have kids from those deanery schools 10 elementary schools especially Cathedral and Brebeuf. It is easy to sit there and say they control their enrollment because they aren't growing or have lost students and that is your perception. Reality is Chatard is trying to gain kids from their deanery schools to go to Chatard. However some opt to go to Cathedral (be it a legacy student or whatever) some opt to go to Brebeuf (be it legacy student or whatever) and some opt going to a public school (Perhaps their parents can't afford the tuition of the other 3). Regardless Chatard does not sits in an area with a lot of High Schools rather close by.  

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Chatard’s football numbers are pretty public as are the affiliate feeder schools.  The varsity roster is 76-77 (forget which) and the Freshmen team has 35 for a total of 111 kids.  Assuming roughly 700 kids that’s 16% of the entire student body or 32% of all boys if the school is divided 50/50 boy  and girls.

Chatard’s situation is unique (possibly shared with Cathedral) in that it is very typical for parents to strongly encourage their Freshman boys to go out for Freshman football as a head start in getting to know their male classmates (assuming they don’t participate in any competing Fall sport).  The role of the Freshman coaches (which was lead by Coach Doyle up until 3 years ago) was obviously to teach and coach up kids but a very important role of the Freshman coach was to make it fun and RETAIN kids for the next year move up to Varsity.

The fact that parents almost utilize Freshman football as a pre-Freshman summer camp for their boys sets the stage for markedly higher football participation rates than normal.....even for a P/P.  

Funny thing is that sometimes that 98 lb hopeless Freshman who didn’t quit before he even started, sticks with it, then has a Jr. year growth spurt and turns into a gorilla his Senior year.  

Doesn’t always happen but it does happen.

That said, are we supposed to penalize/punish/bump up (pick your word of choice) schools for high participation rates?  

Maybe, rather, we should seek to model that.


Edit - God forbid what Chatard would be like if it wasn’t splitting almost 50% of its North Deanery football players with Cathedral and Brebeuf.  Could you imagine combining Chatard and Cathedral into a single North Deanery parochial.....

Edited by Lysander
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40 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

Serious answers:

4 grade schools, yes all have a 5th and 6th grade tackle team.  They play each other and area schools.

1 middle school.  Middle school plays a nine game schedule against conference teams and two non conference teams both from 4A schools

The elementary and middle school team run the exact same offense and exact same defense as the varsity!!  The elementary may be more wishbone heavy, but still the same.

 

Serious question........how does this pertain to the advantage a P/P school has over a public school.  Heritage has been an outstanding program for the past 2/3 decades.  It has done it the right way with home grown coaches most of whom have played in the system and came back to coach!!  The argument here is whether P/P schools have more or any advantages when it comes to athletics vs public.  My answer will always be YES!!

I am a youth coach, and we just introduced the flexbone at the 5-6 grades this year.  Motion is a bit hard for them to get used to.

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19 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Edit - God forbid what Chatard would be like if it wasn’t splitting almost 50% of its North Deanery football players with Cathedral and Brebeuf.  Could you imagine combining Chatard and Cathedral into a single North Deanery parochial....

Would be a perennially nationally ranked program

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25 minutes ago, MHSTigerFan said:

Just out of curiosity, which are the rehashed arguments that have been thoroughly debunked here?

You can't really debunk an opinion -- although you can certainly debunk arguments made to support one.

The most ludicrous and persistent one that keeps popping up is that P/Ps control their enrollment numbers in order to insure athletic success by not migrating upward in classes. 

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Okay this topic was supposed advantage of P/P schools!! I would say over 30% of your male student body playing football is an advantage!! 
And Lysander if you were to have a North Deanery school your class would be the Big 10 and you would be playing in a bowl game every year!!!

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Random thoughts:

1. P/Ps do not limit school size for athletics.  Aside from financial and likely physical constraints (nowhere to build), the argument begs against common sense.   As has been stated, it’s a struggle to keep class sizes up.  If they could grow to Carmel size, they would.

2.  I agree with Irishman in that special needs kids that aren’t ever going to play a sport shouldn’t be counted toward totals for the purpose of classes.  

3.  I argued against the Success Factor from the beginning making many of the arguments @MHSTigerFan is making today (and I still agree with him).  It’s Orwellian and reminds me of “Harrison Bergeron”.  I always said just move all P/Ps up a class and be done with it (because the same untruths and complaints will always promulgate....as we are seeing here now).  That thought didn’t get much traction either, though.  

But today, I think we are stuck with the Success Factor because for some, it’s now a point of pride.  I have a feeling that New Pal, Columbus East and Cathedral all want to compete “Up” these days to show their stuff.  I’m personally PO’d that Chatard didn’t stick in 4A (which still had New Pal, CE and Dwenger in it at the time) although I think 3A has been better than 4A the last few years (I personally think Memorial’s success there helps evidence that).  Still, aside from the reason for its creation, there is a whole new contingent of teams that like being bumped up.
 

 

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6 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

Okay this topic was supposed advantage of P/P schools!! I would say over 30% of your male student body playing football is an advantage!! 
And Lysander if you were to have a North Deanery school your class would be the Big 10 and you would be playing in a bowl game every year!!!

Who is disagreeing that P/P's don't have some advantages over their public counterparts? But there's also certain advantages that publics enjoy over P/P's as well.

We've already established that higher participation rates, better parent involvement, and a phenomenal feeder program is something that schools like Cathedral/Chatard enjoy over their public counterparts.

But capping their enrollment to stay in a certain class (something you keep advocating) sure as hell ain't one. 

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12 minutes ago, HHPatriots said:

I am a youth coach, and we just introduced the flexbone at the 5-6 grades this year.  Motion is a bit hard for them to get used to.

Heck....it’s worse for an old adult in the stands.  Felt like I was watching a shell game at LOS.  I loved watching your offense....even though I never knew who had the ball.

Edited by Lysander
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11 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

Okay this topic was supposed advantage of P/P schools!! I would say over 30% of your male student body playing football is an advantage!! 

Totally agree.  I have never not seen this as an advantage.  P/P participation rates are generally high.  Chatard football participation rates are insanely high by any standard....including P/Ps.  

Yet Memorial last year kicked Chatard’s butt and supports 2 State Championship level Men’s Fall sports.  The year prior Danville (a public) did the same.  High participation is great but you still only field 11 players at a time.

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3 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Totally agree.  I have never not seen this as an advantage.  P/P participation rates are generally high.  Chatard football participation rates are insanely high by any standard....including P/Ps.  

Yet Memorial last year kicked Chatard’s butt and supports 2 State Championship level Men’s Fall sports.  The year prior Danville (a public) did the same.  High participation is great but you still only field 11 players at a time.

Speaking of football participation rates....what the heck has happened at Evansville Harrison?

Their enrollment is listed by IHSAA at 1250.  I never looked at their official roster.  But, when we played them, I counted about 25 kids in uniform.  And I'm pretty sure they didn't field a freshman team again this year.  If that was correct, they've got about a 2% participation rate.

And this is a school that has put 3 guys in the NFL (Scott Studwell, Kevin Hardy, Sean Bennett) -- and various other elite athletes (Calbert Cheaney, Walter McCarty, Joey Elliott, Chris Lowery, Brad Brownell).

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24 minutes ago, HHPatriots said:

I am a youth coach, and we just introduced the flexbone at the 5-6 grades this year.  Motion is a bit hard for them to get used to.

We don't run anything specific at LCC in the youth program.  More of a hybrid.  Straight I and split backfield formations and, very rarely, a little wishbone.  Also run out of a semi-spread, but more trips and twins.  We do run motion and jet sweep even at the 3rd/4th grade level.  The hardest thing that I've found is trying teach kids to even consider trying option plays.  May try in a bit more earnest this next season, although that's probably up to my OC.  I mainly handle the defense.

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2 hours ago, Patriot 74 said:

  Of course administrators care. 

Nah, YOUR principal cares, but I can tell you with 100% certainty our principal could give a rat's a$$.  And every other Memorial person on the GID will tell you that statement is 100% accurate. 

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50 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Who is disagreeing that P/P's don't have some advantages over their public counterparts? But there's also certain advantages that publics enjoy over P/P's as well.

We've already established that higher participation rates, better parent involvement, and a phenomenal feeder program is something that schools like Cathedral/Chatard enjoy over their public counterparts.

But capping their enrollment to stay in a certain class (something you keep advocating) sure as hell ain't one. 

Okay I will put to bed the thought that P/P schools cap enrollment, but you can concur that from the outside looking in (non P/P parent) the perception was/could be there!!!  Almost like UK and Duke ALWAYS get the top recruits but then say “no we ain’t paying nobody”. Please don’t say I am saying P/P schools pay anyone, just an analogy!!

I would like however to discuss an advantage Public schools have???  Obviously athletic motivated please

24 minutes ago, tango said:

Nah, YOUR principal cares, but I can tell you with 100% certainty our principal could give a rat's a$$.  And every other Memorial person on the GID will tell you that statement is 100% accurate. 

Seriously??? I find that whole statement disturbing if true!! 

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26 minutes ago, tango said:

I agree.  Let it fly.  One of the greatest GID posts I've ever seen.  

The year: 2037. The week after Thanksgiving. Early evening; it’s dark. 
The scene: A farm house. 8 Publics are playing cards around a table; other Publics are drinking and talking. The mood is festive. Three P/P’s are crouched outside of the window watching the festivities. 
_______________________
Jimtown: What game are we playing?
Linton-Stockton: How about 5 card draw?
Northwood: Sounds good.
Reitz: Ok, I’ll deal.
Adams Central: It sure is fun around here this time of year.
New Palestine: Yep, another great state championship weekend for us.
Lowell: Sure beats the old days.
Heritage Hills: No kidding. Remember how we used to lose to all of the P/P’s?
NorthWood: Yeah. That was terrible.
Jimtown: Not anymore. This was 10 in a row for us. 
Lowell: I know. 3 for us. And 9 straight finals appearances.
Reitz: Don’t remind me. You’ve beaten us three years in a row. 
Lowell: Yeah, but you won the three prior to that. 
Reitz: True. Oh well. You can beat us every year for all you did back in 2025.
Lowell: Ahh, the war of 2025. It’s too bad it cost so many lives.
Jimtown: Yep, programs lost, AD’s fired. The carnage was unbelievable.
Fishers: What are you guys talking about?
Western Boone: The war of 2025. Don’t you remember?
NorthWood: He was pretty young back then. Linton, you explain what happened. 
Linton-Stockton: OK. Back before the IHSAA banned P/P’s from participating in football, they used to beat us constantly. For years and years, we were their punching bags. We tried everything. Success bumps, multipliers, economic adjustments, bumping them all up a class. Nothing worked. They kept winning. It didn’t matter what class we put them in.
Jimtown: Yep. 2025, that was the year everything came to a head. P/P's won the state championship in all six classes. Carmel was the only Public in the finals and Cathedral beat them 62 to 7.
Reitz: All of the Publics got together and mutinied. A huge demonstration took place at GID which turned into a mass riot. Publics and P/P’s viciously attacked each other. There was bloodshed, bruised egos, damaged expectations, and destroyed reputations. The IHSAA was finally forced to do something to avoid further injuries.

Linton-Stockton: The P/P’s weren’t allowed to play football anymore!
Jimtown: That’s right. There was some discussion of putting them all in the same class but we all thought that would cheapen our tournaments. So me, Lowell, Linton-Stockton, and most of the others here, led the coup which resulted in elimination of all football programs in P/P schools. It was a beautiful day when it happened. 
Linton-Stockton:  Yep, it was beautiful.  We haven’t lost since. 
Jimtown: Well, I have to give you credit, Lin. You have a great coach, a very good feeder program, and a really committed community supporting you. You deserve the success you’ve had. 
Linton-Stockton: Thanks, Jim. See, Fishers? Look around the room at all of the success. We’ve won 11 straight state championships. NorthWood, 11 straight regionals, 8 semi-states and 5 state championships; Heritage Hills, 11 straight finals appearances, 6 state championships; Adams Central, 11 regionals, 6 semi-states. That is some serious success we’re talking about. 
Reitz: Yeah. Look at Jimtown for example. Sure they won 4 state championships under the old system, but since we instituted the new system in 2026, they’ve won 7 out of the last 11. That wouldn’t have been possible if the P/P’s were still around. 
Tri-West Hendricks: True. But you have to admit there are extenuating factors. 
West Lafayette: What do you mean?
Tri-West Hendricks: I don’t mean to be bitter. But we’ve been to semi-state 9 times and have lost to Jimtown each time. They have a higher median income than we do. We have way more students in the federal lunch program than they do. Many of our students live on farms and are unable to play football. I respect what they have accomplished but it is hardly a level playing field. 
Jimtown: Wait a minute. I don’t think YOU understand! We’ve spent decades developing our youth program. It is one of the best in the state. We’ve created a culture where all of the kids in the community want to play football and their parents, many of whom played at Jimtown when they were in high school, support the program. The kids get good instruction for 6 years prior to even getting to high school. It isn’t our problem that you haven’t made the same commitment to get where we are. 
Tri-West Hendricks: That’s fine, but it is YOU who don’t understand!  We can never get to the point you are at with our community. We don’t have the income; we don’t have the parental involvement; we don’t have the same pool of kids that you do. 
Jimtown: Pool of kids? We have the same pool of kids. That is what the class system is for. We each have nearly the same number of kids so we are in the same class. I don’t know what “pool of kids” has to do with anything. 
Tri-West Hendricks: You draw kids from a much larger area than we do. Kids are drawn to your program because of its success. The more success you have, the more kids want to play there, the better your kids get, the more success you have, the more kids want to play there, and on and on. We can’t compete with that. It isn’t about effort. No amount of effort can get us there. It’s not fair!

In the meantime, Western Boone was toasting to the Publics’ success. "Gentlemen," concluded Western Boone, "I will give you the same toast as before, but in a different form. Fill your glasses to the brim. Gentlemen, here is my toast: To the prosperity of The Publics!"

There was the same hearty cheering as before, and the mugs were emptied to the dregs. But as the P/P’s outside gazed at the scene, it seemed to them that some strange thing was happening. What was it that had altered in the faces of the Publics? Their eyes flitted from one face to another. Some of them had five chins, some had four, some had three. But what was it that seemed to be melting and changing? Then, the applause having come to an end, the company took up their cards and continued the game that had been interrupted, and the P/P’s crept silently away.

But they had not gone twenty yards when they stopped short. An uproar of voices was coming from the farmhouse. They rushed back and looked through the window again. Yes, a violent quarrel was in progress. There were shoutings, bangings on the table, sharp suspicious glances, furious denials. The source of the trouble appeared to be that Jimtown and Tri-West Hendricks had each played an ace of spades simultaneously.

Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to
the faces of the Publics. The P/P’s outside looked from Public to P/P, and from P/P to Public, and from Public to P/P again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

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3 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

I would like however to discuss an advantage Public schools have???  Obviously athletic motivated 

 I can give an advantage that A public school like Center Grove utilizes. They have a youth league that runs their wing T from an early age. Starting 2nd grade. That is 7 years of running a the same system the HS does. Carson’s Steele has likely known the entire playbook since at least 5th grade (just a guess in my part). 

Take for example Chatard. 10 deanery schools let’s say 8 play football. 1 team may run I formation another spread, another wishbone, another fkexbone, another T formation. Now these kids come to Chatard all have to learn Soread and a 4-4 defense lets say as Freshman but not all of them have been running that from 2nd grade. 

Let me remind you I have no affiliation with Chatard. I have no idea what the CYO teams are running these days. I do know if you have multiple offenses and defenses ran and the kids have to learn the discipline of the system as freshman it is an advantage that schools that ru the same system from 2nd to 12th enjoy. I know CG does this. @crimsonace1 and @CaptainHook can say if New Pal does the same ( I have much respect for both gentlemen and I think they know that). I am an unbiased observer.

i will say there are even advantages some public schools enjoy over other public schools 

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Just now, FastpacedO said:

 I can give an advantage that A public school like Center Grove utilizes. They have a youth league that runs their wing T from an early age. Starting 2nd grade. That is 7 years of running a the same system the HS does. Carson’s Steele has likely known the entire playbook since at least 5th grade (just a guess in my part). 

Take for example Chatard. 10 deanery schools let’s say 8 play football. 1 team may run I formation another spread, another wishbone, another fkexbone, another T formation. Now these kids come to Chatard all have to learn Soread and a 4-4 defense lets say as Freshman but not all of them have been running that from 2nd grade. 

Let me remind you I have no affiliation with Chatard. I have no idea what the CYO teams are running these days. I do know if you have multiple offenses and defenses ran and the kids have to learn the discipline of the system as freshman it is an advantage that schools that ru the same system from 2nd to 12th enjoy. I know CG does this. @crimsonace1 and @CaptainHook can say if New Pal does the same ( I have much respect for both gentlemen and I think they know that). I am an unbiased observer.

i will say there are even advantages some public schools enjoy over other public schools 

True.  The Deanery school teams used to run whatever they wanted.  I assume that is still the same.  

If I recall correctly, when Doyle was Freshman coach at Chatard even he didn’t run the varsity offense (players may correct me on this, though).

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12 minutes ago, Lysander said:

True.  The Deanery school teams used to run whatever they wanted.  I assume that is still the same.  

If I recall correctly, when Doyle was Freshman coach at Chatard even he didn’t run the varsity offense (players may correct me on this, though).

I would imagine he spent more of his time making them a brotherhood and:or more comfortable with each other. They have played against each other and it in different schemes. Try to get them to gel and trust each other!

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17 minutes ago, Lysander said:

True.  The Deanery school teams used to run whatever they wanted.  I assume that is still the same.  

If I recall correctly, when Doyle was Freshman coach at Chatard even he didn’t run the varsity offense (players may correct me on this, though).

I would also venture to say that @crimsonace1, @CaptainHook, and   Other be oal fans and parents would say the weight lifting and conditioning program Coach Ralph has brought into New Pal has been a huge difference maker!

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