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What are these advantages that private schools supposedly have?


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I was NPCFL president for 4 years and have been associated with the league since 2008 in some capacity.  We do run a structured league.  First and Second grade have an offensive and defensive playbook they must use.  Third and fourth grade have offensive and defensive formations and restictions.  The fifth and sixth divisions run the 33 stack, like the HS.  I also coach at the junior high, where we run a watered down version of the high school stuff.

Ralph's weight program is top notch.  It's not for everyone, and it can be grueling, but the kids see the results.  When Maxen was a sophomore, we had 6 seniors.  That senior class did not win a game in middle school.  But they did in high school, losing to Zionsville on a 48 yard field goal in the mud in the sectional championship.  From weight room, to practices, to game plans . . . it is unbelievable.  And a football crazed community that really supports this team.

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1 hour ago, Patriot 74 said:

I would like however to discuss an advantage Public schools have???  Obviously athletic motivated please

-Tax dollars that goes towards infrastructure (stadium, playing surface, weight room). Most facilities at P/P’s (assuming they have their own stadium) are dated and any upgrades that are made are almost solely through donations

-Open enrollment (in most cases), almost every district is open enrollment and kids can navigate towards any school they want without paying a steep tuition fee

-eligibility requirements. Again this is likely arbitrary and varies from district to district, but would guess the average p/p has stricter eligibility requirements than the IHSAA minimum compared to its average counterpart

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People keep bringing up open enrollment like it makes public and private schools equal. I know if I played at my local school as a sophomore and transfer to a school 20 miles away without relocating, the IHSAA will probably grant me limited eligibility for my junior year. If I play my sophomore year at Tecumseh Central then enroll at Evansville Memorial for my junior year, will I receive limited eligibility or does the IHSAA look at Public to Private transfers differently?

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42 minutes ago, JQWL said:

People keep bringing up open enrollment like it makes public and private schools equal. I know if I played at my local school as a sophomore and transfer to a school 20 miles away without relocating, the IHSAA will probably grant me limited eligibility for my junior year.

Well that’s not how open enrollment works but thanks for playing.

Whats you’ve just described is a transfer and has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

Edited by Footballking16
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29 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

I think private schools should play in one class above their enrollment and be subject to a success multiplier.  But that's just me.  When you can control your enrollment numbers and control your student population make-up . . . you have a huge advantage.

This might be a small area where may disagree (believe me that’s okay I totally respect you and your opinions). I say this because many when thinking of P/P many think Cathedral or Chatard. What about Providence, Bishop Noll, Oldenburg, Park Tudor? They can control their enenrollment numbers and student population make-up but doesn’t translate like you would think for Cathedral or Chatard. No where near the success and bumping them up wouldn’t be the correct action. 

There is a lot to be said about socioeconomics and geography too. Being in Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, or Evansville is a lot different than where these schools are located. Just food for thought.

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6 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

This might be a small area where may disagree (believe me that’s okay I totally respect you and your opinions). I say this because many when thinking of P/P many think Cathedral or Chatard. What about Providence, Bishop Noll, Oldenburg, Park Tudor? They can control their enenrollment numbers and student population make-up but doesn’t translate like you would think for Cathedral or Chatard. No where near the success and bumping them up wouldn’t be the correct action. 

There is a lot to be said about socioeconomics and geography too. Being in Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, or Evansville is a lot different than where these schools are located. Just food for thought.

I grew up 3 mins down the road from Cathedral and went to Lawrence Central, so I may be biased.  Hah!

I do think when you can control your student population . . . there is a inherent advantage.

Edited by CaptainHook
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14 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Well that’s not how open enrollment works but thanks for playing.

Whats you’ve just described is a transfer and has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

Im not sure what your issue is. I'm asking a seperate question all together. Wasn't directed at you. Had it been directed at you, I would have quoted one of your elitist comments or messaged you directly. So, if anyone else who has any experience on how the IHSSA handles public to private transfers, I would like to know. Thanks.

Also, that is exactly how open enrollment works. The IHSAA has a sense of humor about it too. They once granted a senior we had that transferred during the summer from Paoli to Springs Valley limited eligibility until the day of the baseball sectional championship.

Edited by JQWL
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Just now, JQWL said:

Im not sure what your issue is. I'm asking a seperate question all together. Wasn't directed at you. Had it been directed at you, I would have quoted one of your elitist comments or messaged you directly. So, if anyone else who has any experience on how the IHSSA handles public to private transfers, I would like to know. Thanks.

You made a blanket (and wrong) statement pertaining to open enrollment using an example of an athletic transfer. Considering I was the one who brought up open enrollment, I figured you were referencing my posts. Not shocking you don’t understand how open enrollment works.
 

 

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9 hours ago, MHSTigerFan said:

 

Even if this is the case, I don't think it justifies the SF or any other rule designed to make sports success more difficult for Dwenger (or anybody else).  It's a really bad representation of how success, failure, etc. work in real life.  If somebody else is having more success than you are at whatever pursuit or endeavor you're undertaking, and this is something you can't abide, the answer to that should never be to throw whatever bombs you have at your disposal in their path.  That's not competition -- or, at least, it's not the way to deal with competition.  The benefit of competition is that it makes all competitors strive to be better -- not to try to seek equal (or more equal) results, however possible.

We shouldn't be teaching kids that the way to get the results they want in life is to take actions to hamper others who are seeking the same results, just because they're getting better ones.  Because, among other reasons, that's not how it's going to work for them when they enter the workforce.  If they want better results there, they're going to have to improve their own performance.

 

I have a lot more sympathy for this argument.  But wouldn't that mean having to officially exclude these kids from competing in athletics?  It seems to me that would be a prerequisite for discounting them from the enrollment figures.  I don't think it's something you can have both ways -- "we're going to exclude special education students from our enrollment figures, except those who actually participate in athletics."  But, that issue aside, I do generally agree that it makes no sense to count them for the purpose of developing athletics classes.

 

Well, this might just be a semantics thing.  But, after all, schools that get enough points aren't moved down a class, right?  They're not pulling out a pair of dice and rolling it to see which class they'll compete in in succeeding years, right?  The entire idea is to pit those schools against stiffer competition -- which is another way of saying that they should have a harder time getting through tournaments.  I guess we can debate whether or not "punishment" is the right word to describe this, but it certainly doesn't seem like any kind of reward.

That said, whether or not it's a "punishment" isn't really my beef with it.  My beef with it is that the SF burden is almost always placed on people who weren't responsible for the success.  That makes no sense at all.

Right.  Let's go all the way then and get rid of the classes entirely.  Who cares if Carmel has 200 kids for every 1 Sheridan has.  Those Sheridan kids just need to roll up their sleeves and realize the only difference that matters is that the Carmel kids work harder at the end of the day.

So long as we are still separating teams by class, telling teams to just work harder if they want more success is out the window.  We've decided to try to make level playing fields.  So if there are significant factors other than just attendance that make an uneven playing field, what's the difference in adjusting for those?  

Personally I like success factor because I don't believe that winning is #1 ideal the IHSAA should be promoting.  Competition is.  And if at the end of the day a couple of classes end up losing in regionals rather than walking to a smaller state championship, there's a life lesson that goes with that as well.  As someone who believes in competition, I'll tell you who I wouldn't have wanted to be this year.  A player for Western Boone or Chatard.  Those programs walked through their respective tourneys without ever getting really even challenged.  They weren't provided a level of competition to allow them to discover exactly how good they could be.  They just know they were way better than everyone in their class.

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13 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

I grew up 3 mins down the road from Cathedral and went to Lawrence Central, so I may be biased.  Hah!

I do think when you can control your student population . . . there is a inherent advantage.

I don’t disagree with your last statement at all. That’s why I say it goes more in depth. Schools like I mentioned have the same abilities to control enrollment just don’t have the mass populations like Cathedral or Chatard (with the exception of Park Tudor). A bump up doesn’t just affect the power teams it affects some who have had little to no success.

all in love Captain hopefully you know by now my absolute respect and that won’t change in my eyes if we slightly disagree. Maxes is still a stud! Hah!

bTW I like the success factor. I do feel however it should be utilized like the IFCA originally proposed every 4 years not 2 years.

Edited by FastpacedO
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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You made a blanket (and wrong) statement pertaining to open enrollment using an example of an athletic transfer. Considering I was the one who brought up open enrollment, I figured you were referencing my posts. Not shocking you don’t understand how open enrollment works.
 

 

Please use your private school education to explain to me how I am wrong here. Slowly please because public school education prohibits me from comprehending what I am reading. Pictures would be appreciated.

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1 minute ago, JQWL said:

Please use your private school education to explain to me how I am wrong here. Slowly please because public school education prohibits me from comprehending what I am reading. Pictures would be appreciated.

An athletic transfer is an athletic transfer. I don’t know what else to tell you? Regardless if it’s public to public, private to public, public to private, a student who transfers for athletic purposes shall be deemed to have limited eligibility ruled forth by the IHSAA.

A person who starts their career at one high school who then transfers to another high school is deemed a transfer. An 8th grader who attends a junior high school in one district but elects to attend a high school in an opposing district is exercising open enrollment.

No pictures necessary, this is pretty much common sense.

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1 minute ago, JQWL said:

Please use your private school education to explain to me how I am wrong here. Slowly please because public school education prohibits me from comprehending what I am reading. Pictures would be appreciated.

I will try my best to explain. A student from a Lawrence township middle school (8th grade) enrolling at Bishop Chatard as a Freshman and playing four years is not the same as a student that is a Soohomore at Lawrence North and exudes to enroll at Bishop Chatard. 

However a student at say West Lafayette who has parents that move to Indianapolis in the Broad Ripole Area and transfer that student to Bishop Chatard will be treated differently than a student that transfers from Lawrence North to Bishop Chatard.

not sure if that helps and it is all hypothetical.

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3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

An athletic transfer is an athletic transfer. I don’t know what else to tell you? Regardless if it’s public to public, private to public, public to private, a student who transfers for athletic purposes shall be deemed to have limited eligibility ruled forth by the IHSAA.

A person who starts their career at one high school who then transfers to another high school is deemed a transfer. An 8th grader who attends a junior high school in one district but elects to attend a high school in an opposing district is exercising open enrollment.

No pictures necessary, this is pretty much common sense.

 

3 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I will try my best to explain. A student from a Lawrence township middle school (8th grade) enrolling at Bishop Chatard as a Freshman and playing four years is not the same as a student that is a Soohomore at Lawrence North and exudes to enroll at Bishop Chatard. 

However a student at say West Lafayette who has parents that move to Indianapolis in the Broad Ripole Area and transfer that student to Bishop Chatard will be treated differently than a student that transfers from Lawrence North to Bishop Chatard.

not sure if that helps and it is all hypothetical.

Interesting.

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Obviously transferring/enrolling before HS career begins is treated differently.  Don't really have an issue with that.  Moving is the single most important thing you have to do.  Moving and then going private is doable.  You may have to go through some red tape, but it's been done many, many, many times.

What I don't get is a kid that has played for 3 or even 4 HS in his career.  Come on man.

Edited by CaptainHook
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1 minute ago, JQWL said:

 

Interesting.

How is it interesting? 

He said the exact same thing as I said but used actually schools as an example. A student who goes to a public junior high in Lawrence Township but enrolls at Chatard as a freshman isn’t considered a transfer. Somebody who attends West Lafayette as a freshman but attends Chatard as a sophomore because their parents moved to Indianapolis obviously isn’t an athletic transfer. A kid who starts out at Lawrence North and transfers to a private school 3 miles down the road is obviously going to be considered an athletic transfer, assuming they play sports.

All of this is common sense, self-explanatory. As someone who lists coach/staff in their bio, it’s kind of mystifying how this is somehow news to you? Are you being pedantic?

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3 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

Obviously transferring/enrolling before HS career begins is treated differently.  Don't really have an issue with that.  Moving is the single most important thing you have to do.  Moving and then going private is doable.  You may have to go through some red tape, but it's been done many, many, many times.

What I don't get is a kid that has played for 3 or even 4 HS in his career.  Come on man.

Amen!!! I know 1 in particular that played as a Freshman in another state transfers to a private school in this state for 1 year. Then transfers to a public school his 3rd year and then again transfers to another public school his SR year. Crazy and makes no sense! @Olympian06 I’m sure has the same feeling as me. 

It shows a lot of what is going on. Doesn’t really help the child/player either. To each his own I guess!

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

How is it interesting? 

He said the exact same thing as I said but used actually schools as an example. A student who goes to a public junior high in Lawrence Township but enrolls at Chatard as a freshman isn’t considered a transfer. Somebody who attends West Lafayette as a freshman but attends Chatard as a sophomore because their parents moved to Indianapolis obviously isn’t an athletic transfer. A kid who starts out at Lawrence North and transfers to a private school 3 miles down the road is obviously going to be considered an athletic transfer, assuming they play sports.

All of this is common sense, self-explanatory. As someone who lists coach/staff in their bio, it’s kind of mystifying how this is somehow news to you? Are you being pedantic?

I know of an HHC kid that did just that.  Moved after freshman year.  Went private.  He played with little IHSAA difficulty.

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1 minute ago, CaptainHook said:

I know of an HHC kid that did just that.  Moved after freshman year.  Went private.  He played with little IHSAA difficulty.

It helps when both schools sign off, especially when transferring to a private.

Eron Gordon was a debacle. There were two D1 athletes that transferred from North Central to Cathedral a few years. One was Jordan Walker who has been a 4 year starter at Morehead State who was cleared with no issue. The other was obviously Gordon and because of his household name (Eric Gordon’s brother), he had limited eligibility. It was a mess.

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4 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Amen!!! I know 1 in particular that played as a Freshman in another state transfers to a private school in this state for 1 year. Then transfers to a public school his 3rd year and then again transfers to another public school his SR year. Crazy and makes no sense! @Olympian06 I’m sure has the same feeling as me. 

It shows a lot of what is going on. Doesn’t really help the child/player either. To each his own I guess!

It’s when your fathers ego is bigger than the kids talent.. We all know exactly who we are referring to. I don’t think a kid transferring is necessarily a bad thing, but when it’s school after school you have to look at the common denominator in the sequence. 

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