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Ben Mussolini

What are these advantages that private schools supposedly have?

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21 minutes ago, MHSTigerFan said:

I couldn't agree more.  The whole thing has a very "participation trophy" feel to it.  And, frankly, I think that's one of the fundamentally wrong turns we've taken as a society.  It was taken in the interest of promoting "success" by trying to eliminate (or, at least, diminish) the prospect of failure -- and it accomplishes this by making success harder for others to achieve.

Imagine if, say, a commissioned sales force worked this way.  We've got a team of 2 sales reps -- Joe and Bob -- and they each start out with an annual quota of $1 million.  After a couple years in, both reps are making quota.  But Joe is pushing $3 million in sales, while Bob is just getting beyond the $1 million quota.  How much sense would it make to increase Joe's quota to the $3 million mark, while leaving Bob's alone?  No matter what you might do with compensation, you'd still be telling your better rep that, because he's proven capable of selling more than the weaker rep, he's going to have to triple that guy just to keep his job....while the other guy can sell a third as much and still keep his.

This isn't how the world works -- nor should it be.  And to call it "fair" is positively Orwellian.

That is not a good example at all, and completely ignores the population issues that many public schools face, in particular the ones I mentioned above. Your example implies that ALL things are equal among the schools represented on the field. And actually, the REAL wrong turn we have taken as a society is continuing to just brush that population aside, like they don’t even exist, including the current path of supposed “reforms” that are in place in Indiana now. 

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We just got our butt kicked by Chatard. Nobody cares about excuses.  My 12 year old son came to me during the game Friday and said, "do you realize that their team is 1/5 the size of our entire school?!?!?!"  My reply to him was that none of this matters.  Nobody cares about excuses.  Until Indiana changes the rules we just have to work harder and find a way to win.  

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13 minutes ago, Irishman said:

That is not a good example at all, and completely ignores the population issues that many public schools face, in particular the ones I mentioned above. Your example implies that ALL things are equal among the schools represented on the field. And actually, the REAL wrong turn we have taken as a society is continuing to just brush that population aside, like they don’t even exist, including the current path of supposed “reforms” that are in place in Indiana now. 

The world is a competitive place -- and real success does not come by throwing obstacles in other peoples' ways just because they're outpacing you.

Preventing somebody from doing this is not "brushing them aside" at all.  Nobody is entitled to any victory or championship.  And to say "either I win championships too...or else you're brushing me aside" is ridiculous.

If this is really indicative of your worldview, I'm glad my kids don't go to your school.  You're going to have a hard time producing too many successful people if you encourage them to gauge their own success by how much better other people are doing relative to them...and thus just fomenting envy.  What you should be encouraging them to do is model such people, not thwart them.

Edited by MHSTigerFan
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2 minutes ago, HHPatriots said:

"do you realize that their team is 1/5 the size of our entire school?!?!?!" 

 

3 minutes ago, HHPatriots said:

we just have to work harder

Better start by getting more participation from your student body.

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4 minutes ago, HHPatriots said:

We just got our butt kicked by Chatard. Nobody cares about excuses.  My 12 year old son came to me during the game Friday and said, "do you realize that their team is 1/5 the size of our entire school?!?!?!"  My reply to him was that none of this matters.  Nobody cares about excuses.  Until Indiana changes the rules we just have to work harder and find a way to win.  

All I know is Chatard had as many cheerleaders as we did football players!!!!  That in and of itself should be the proof that there are advantages!! 

1 minute ago, gonzoron said:

 

 

Better start by getting more participation from your student body.

Can't!!!!!!  They gotta go milk the cows, feed the hogs and split wood for the wood burning stove!!  No time for athletics!!

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2 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

 

 

Better start by getting more participation from your student body.

We have 50 kids on the roster.  That is almost 10% of the enrollment.  If half are girls then that doubles. Almost 1 in 6 (boys) playing football...that is pretty involved.

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3 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

All I know is Chatard had as many cheerleaders as we did football players!!!!  That in and of itself should be the proof that there are advantages!! 

Can't!!!!!!  They gotta go milk the cows, feed the hogs and split wood for the wood burning stove!!  No time for athletics!!

Or have to go work to support a one parent household. Or live with grandma/grandpa because mom/dad are out of the picture. Or don’t have the physical capabilities of participating. The list goes on and on- but P/P aren’t faced with many of these issues - hence the “walk through the hallways and then tell me there is not a difference” argument 

Its really that simple. 

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10 minutes ago, HHPatriots said:

We just got our butt kicked by Chatard. Nobody cares about excuses.  My 12 year old son came to me during the game Friday and said, "do you realize that their team is 1/5 the size of our entire school?!?!?!"  My reply to him was that none of this matters.  Nobody cares about excuses.  Until Indiana changes the rules we just have to work harder and find a way to win.  

Bingo.  You want to beat a team like Chatard?  Improve.

That's a much more constructive outlook than saying....get those bums into 4A, pronto!!  We're entitled to win tournaments too and we can't do that as long as they're standing in the way!

Now, I don't necessarily disagree with those saying that enrollment alone is not the best way to derive classes.  But bumping up kids who were in 8th or 9th grade when a team had two successive great seasons?  Senseless.

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1 minute ago, MHSTigerFan said:

Bingo.  You want to beat a team like Chatard?  Improve.

That's a much more constructive outlook than saying....get those bums into 4A, pronto!!  We're entitled to win tournaments too and we can't do that as long as they're standing in the way!

Now, I don't necessarily disagree with those saying that enrollment alone is not the best way to derive classes.  But bumping up kids who were in 8th or 9th grade when a team had two successive great seasons?  Senseless.

Yup, and there is being in the right place at the right time.  If folks at Memorial are being honest they are glad they were bumped to 4A this year!  Am I wrong?

That is NOT a statement on your team, which is obviously stellar.  If I am being honest, I am glad Memorial wasn't in Sectional 32!

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4 minutes ago, jets said:

but P/P aren’t faced with many of these issues

That's a very presumptive statement.  You have no idea how many of these kinds of situations exist at any particular school.  Maybe they don't exist much at certain P/P schools, but do at others.

To just make a blanket assertion like that is...well, let's just say it's akin to certain stereotypical attitudes that we've really been trying to exorcise from our society. 

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2 minutes ago, HHPatriots said:

Yup, and there is being in the right place at the right time.  If folks at Memorial are being honest they are glad they were bumped to 4A this year!  Am I wrong?

That is NOT a statement on your team, which is obviously stellar.  If I am being honest, I am glad Memorial wasn't in Sectional 32!

I made that very comment in another thread.  All I said is that, despite my haranguing about the Success Factor, the truth is that, if we were in 3A this year, we probably wouldn't be celebrating right now.  That doesn't change my opinion about the success factor.  But it's the truth.

Sectional 32 is almost always a very tough sectional -- and both HH and GS were high caliber teams this year.  Even if we'd have made it out of there, do I think we could've beaten Chatard again?  I watched your game...and I have my doubts.  They looked phenomenal.

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34 minutes ago, MHSTigerFan said:

The world is a competitive place -- and real success does not come by throwing obstacles in other peoples' ways just because they're outpacing you.

Preventing somebody from doing this is not "brushing them aside" at all.  Nobody is entitled to any victory or championship.  And to say "either I win championships too...or else you're brushing me aside" is ridiculous.

If this is really indicative of your worldview, I'm glad my kids don't go to your school.  You're going to have a hard time producing too many successful people if you encourage them to gauge their own success by how much better other people are doing relative to them...and thus just fomenting envy.  What you should be encouraging them to do is model such people, not thwart them.

PLEASE go back and read my post. 
orrrrrrr, I have a better idea. Maybe you can tell me exactly how I can motivate a kid in a wheel chair that cannot communicate in any way shape or form, and has to have a diaper changed three or four times a day. Or how do I motivate the multiple other really low functioning students in my class?. Asking honestly, because your reply really does show that you did not read what I posted, and yeah, your response actually DOES show you brushed them aside. And even thinking my comment about brushing them aside proves you did not read my comment. I was not even referring to championships, or even football with that statement. 

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I feel like many of the arguments in this thread are one sided.

"We have to play private schools with more advantages." The reply is, "The world isn't' fair."

"We got bumped up and have to play in a bigger class." Shouldn't the reply, "The world isn't fair" apply here too?

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5 minutes ago, MHSTigerFan said:

That's a very presumptive statement.  You have no idea how many of these kinds of situations exist at any particular school.  Maybe they don't exist much at certain P/P schools, but do at others.

To just make a blanket assertion like that is...well, let's just say it's akin to certain stereotypical attitudes that we've really been trying to exorcise from our society. 

Funny how that comment comes from a Memorial supporter. I had the chance as a high school student to do a student-council "swap" for a day in which Memorial was the school we "swapped" with. (They spent a day at ours, we spent a day at theirs). That day STILL sticks with me all these years later in regards to the P/P debate and just how different 2 similar sized schools could be. Hence the "wall the hallways" argument. 

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15 minutes ago, HHPatriots said:

We have 50 kids on the roster.  That is almost 10% of the enrollment.  If half are girls then that doubles. Almost 1 in 6 (boys) playing football...that is pretty involved.

It's 8.3%. Almost the exact percentage of that 'other' HH Hamilton Heights. And they went 2-8 on the season. 10% would have probably improved that record quite a bit for the Huskies.(20 more kids on the roster)

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17 hours ago, Ben Mussolini said:

In the 1A championship game topic, it was stated that private schools should not be allowed to compete in 1A as they have too many "advantages"?  What are these advantages? 

Private schools have to compete not just for football players but for literally their entire student body.  The parents of these students all make sacrifices in time and money that public school parents simply do not have to make.   The parents always have the option of deciding that these sacrifices are too much and simply walking away.   There is always a public alternative that the parents have already paid for anyway with their own tax money.

The facilities at private schools are often not their own.  Covenant Christian HS uses the Zionsville West Middle School field as its home field.  In 2016, Lutheran had to move its regional game against Fountain Central to Beech Grove's field as Lutheran's old home field was simply not that good of a field.  How is playing on a field that's not your own an advantage? 

I will grant that many 1A public schools have stretched resources.  They are at least guaranteed a student body from year to year and have their own facilities rather than borrowing someone else's.  Once again, what advantages do private schools supposedly have?

 

 

 

Pioneer has played multiple semi state games at nearby Logansport due to facilities not meeting the standard of a semi state crowd.

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3 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

It's 8.3%. Almost the exact percentage of that 'other' HH Hamilton Heights. And they went 2-8 on the season. 10% would have probably improved that record quite a bit for the Huskies.(20 more kids on the roster)

I believe Chatard is at about 11% roster 77 enrollment of 700.

I think Danville was at about 7% roster 59 enrollment 801.

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16 hours ago, DannEllenwood said:

Can’t schools cap their out of district students?  

I pretty sure that Western and Northwestern do. Kokomo public schools is academically a bottom 50 school system in the state. As a result, there is a big demand for the other, higher performing public schools in the area.

Edited by AG

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1 hour ago, MHSTigerFan said:

I couldn't agree more.  The whole thing has a very "participation trophy" feel to it.  And, frankly, I think that's one of the fundamentally wrong turns we've taken as a society.  It was taken in the interest of promoting "success" by trying to eliminate (or, at least, diminish) the prospect of failure -- and it accomplishes this by making success harder for others to achieve.

Imagine if, say, a commissioned sales force worked this way.  We've got a team of 2 sales reps -- Joe and Bob -- and they each start out with an annual quota of $1 million.  After a couple years in, both reps are making quota.  But Joe is pushing $3 million in sales, while Bob is just getting beyond the $1 million quota.  How much sense would it make to increase Joe's quota to the $3 million mark, while leaving Bob's alone?  No matter what you might do with compensation, you'd still be telling your better rep that, because he's proven capable of selling more than the weaker rep, he's going to have to triple that guy just to keep his job....while the other guy can sell a third as much and still keep his.

This isn't how the world works -- nor should it be.  And to call it "fair" is positively Orwellian.

When I was in school in the 90s, most of the kids I knew HATED participation trophies and ribbons because they basically meant that we didn't win. It was a bit of the proverbial "slap in the face" to me.

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9 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I believe Chatard is at about 11% roster 77 enrollment of 700.

I think Danville was at about 7% roster 59 enrollment 801.

Not an expert on Chatard but MaxPreps lists 80 Senior through Sophomores. If we assume similar numbers in the freshman class that's 106 kids. And if half of those 700 kids are male, that's 30% of all boys playing football.

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33 minutes ago, Irishman said:

PLEASE go back and read my post. 
orrrrrrr, I have a better idea. Maybe you can tell me exactly how I can motivate a kid in a wheel chair that cannot communicate in any way shape or form, and has to have a diaper changed three or four times a day. Asking honestly, because your reply really does show that you did not read what I posted, and yeah, your response actually DOES show you brushed them aside. 

What in the name of all that's holy does dealing with a disabled kid -- or a hundred disabled kids -- have to do with IHSAA policies designed to advantage/disadvantage schools' athletic teams?  Of course you deal with such kids differently than you do people of able body.  So this is a complete non sequitur.

But, since you mentioned it, our local press has focused a lot of attention on a Memorial student and his older sister (though she graduated last year) who both have Epidermolysis bullosa -- a horrifying disease that, among other things, makes their skin so delicate that it tears like wet toilet paper.  They basically have to be wrapped up like mummies 24 hours a day.  They can barely walk and they are in eternal pain.  Among one of the ironies is that these childrens' father and uncle are two of the better athletes in Memorial's history.   The uncle, who was HS baseball teammates with Don Mattingly, played in MLB himself for a number of years.

Nobody has ever blown any sunshine to these kids about their prospects in life.  They're going to have it rough, and they know it.  But Sam, the freshman, is a huge sports fan and the team treats him like one of them.  When he walks the halls at school, one of the players (often Brock Combs) accompanies him and carries his things to make sure that he gets where he needs to go safely.  If you see any pictures of Brock at the celebration pep rally, you'll notice he's the only player not wearing his State Championship medal.  That's because he gave his to Sam.

Yes, I know that just about every school has kids like this.  And just about every school has people in their community who go out of their ways to help them in countless ways.  But I can tell you one thing, I've never run into anybody in our school community who would point to Sam or any other kid dealing with a hard situation there as a reason why the IHSAA needs to set policies that are designed to give us a better chance at winning sports tournaments.

Edited by MHSTigerFan

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12 minutes ago, JQWL said:

Not an expert on Chatard but MaxPreps lists 80 Senior through Sophomores. If we assume similar numbers in the freshman class that's 106 kids. And if half of those 700 kids are male, that's 30% of all boys playing football.

Danville's roster of 59 on MaxPreps includes freshmen

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6 minutes ago, JQWL said:

Not an expert on Chatard but MaxPreps lists 80 Senior through Sophomores. If we assume similar numbers in the freshman class that's 106 kids. And if half of those 700 kids are male, that's 30% of all boys playing football.

State Finals Preview and Official Program listed them at 77 players on the roster. Not really concerned about the Freshman roster because the freshman didn't play in the game on Friday at LOS. Don't know the percentage of students of the 700 that are boys or girls so I won't speculate. I just gave raw numbers that were available.

https://ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/news media/2019-20/2019-20 Football Preview.pdf?ver=2019-11-25-215729-050

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They have one advantage--the mystique of being a private school--you little proletariats should know better.

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