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Ben Mussolini

What are these advantages that private schools supposedly have?

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8 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

State Finals Preview and Official Program listed them at 77 players on the roster. Not really concerned about the Freshman roster because the freshman didn't play in the game on Friday at LOS. Don't know the percentage of students of the 700 that are boys or girls so I won't speculate. I just gave raw numbers that were available.

https://ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/news media/2019-20/2019-20 Football Preview.pdf?ver=2019-11-25-215729-050

but your raw data is skewed because the 700 boys and girls are for grades 9-12. Danville's 58 kids are 9-12. So you're leaving out a pretty important part of your raw data.

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Just now, JQWL said:

Not an expert on Chatard but MaxPreps lists 80 Senior through Sophomores. If we assume similar numbers in the freshman class that's 106 kids. And if half of those 700 kids are male, that's 30% of all boys playing football.

Thank you for that statement you beat me too it......Heritage Hills roster was 50 including three or four frosh.  So it would be safe to assume that a school that has +30% of the boys attending playing football does have a slight advantage due to numbers alone.  My lord think of the practices and the availability of getting quality reps in alone vs a school with barely enough to run 11 on 11.  

There was one comment on here about controlling enrollment to stay in a certain class, example Evansville Mater Dei staying in 2A.  The rebuttal was that the school was not controlling enrollment to stay in a certain class but instead controlling enrollment because of the classroom size to adequately handle the number of students.  My thought would be this, if the school is truly not concerned about staying in any certain class, build a bigger school to accommodate the number of students wanting to come.  I mean if that truly is what the issue is (classroomss are only this big so only "x" amount can come), why not have a bigger school, and consequently move up in class size if necessary.  This is something public schools deal with yearly, shrinking/growing enrollment and the affects it has on the class in which you compete. 

Lastly; if there is the perception that p/p schools have no advantage, and it's all just kids vs kids competing, let the best team win.  Then why not do what Tennessee has done, Illinois has done, countless other states have done.........a state tournament for the p/p schools only.  I mean seriously if there isn't an advantage one way or the other, then to me that's the most simple and logical solution.  There will never again be this debate then.......problem solved.

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10 minutes ago, MHSTigerFan said:

What in the name of all that's holy does dealing with a disabled kid -- or a hundred disabled kids -- have to do with IHSAA policies designed to advantage/disadvantage schools' athletic teams?  Of course you deal with such kids differently than you do people of able body.  So this is a complete non sequitur.

But, since you mentioned it, our local press has focused a lot of attention on a Memorial student and his older sister (though she graduated last year) who both have Epidermolysis bullosa -- a horrifying disease that, among other things, makes their skin so delicate that it tears like wet toilet paper.  They basically have to be wrapped up like mummies 24 hours a day.  They can barely walk and they are in eternal pain.  Among one of the ironies is that these childrens' father and uncle are two of the better athletes in Memorial's history.   The uncle, who was HS baseball teammates with Don Mattingly, played in MLB himself for a number of years.

Nobody has ever blown any sunshine to these kids about their prospects in life.  They're going to have it rough, and they know it.  But Sam, the freshman, is a huge sports fan and the team treats him like one of them.  When he walks the halls at school, one of the players (often Brock Combs) accompanies him and carries his things to make sure that he gets where he needs to go safely.  If you see any pictures of Brock at the celebration pep rally, you'll notice he's the only player not wearing his State Championship medal.  That's because he gave his to Sam.

Yes, I know that just about every school has kids like this.  And just about every school has people in their community who go out of their ways to help them in countless ways.  But I can tell you one thing, I've never run into anybody in our school community who would point to Sam or any other kid dealing with a hard situation there as a reason why the IHSAA needs to set policies that are designed to give us a better chance at winning sports tournaments.

Wow.......yeah, you just don’t get it. The point is that classifications are based on enrollment. Those kids count in our enrollment, soooooooo they factor into what class our programs are in. It really was not that complicated to figure out though. Yeah, most schools do deal with that population, whereas many pp schools do not have that population, or it is minimal. So the impact of using just enrollment to classify is significant to a LOT schools. 

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2 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

My thought would be this, if the school is truly not concerned about staying in any certain class, build a bigger school to accommodate the number of students wanting to come.  I mean if that truly is what the issue is (classroomss are only this big so only "x" amount can come), why not have a bigger school, and consequently move up in class size if necessary.  This is something public schools deal with yearly, shrinking/growing enrollment and the affects it has on the class in which you compete. 

I will assure you there are ZERO private schools who are intentionally capping their enrollment so they can pad their trophy case. This is the single dumbest argument on the GID. 

You understand that private schools aren't funded by tax dollars and they can't just up and build a new building at the snap of their fingers. 

But I will assure you that private schools aren't turning away kids to stay in a certain enrollment based class to win a state title.

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6 minutes ago, BLKnights7 said:

I heard private schools have better deserts at lunch... ridiculous.

But Carmel has sushi.

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I will assure you there are ZERO private schools who are intentionally capping their enrollment so they can pad their trophy case. This is the single dumbest argument on the GID. 

You understand that private schools aren't funded by tax dollars and they can't just up and build a new building at the snap of their fingers. 

But I will assure you that private schools aren't turning away kids to stay in a certain enrollment based class to win a state title.

Not completely accurate in this day and age. Most are funded anywhere from partially to significantly, by tax dollars now. While I agree they do not cap enrollment/admission based on athletics to control the class they are in; the fact is that capping enrollment is a thing. You are right they cannot build new buildings. But if a public school even tried to tell the State “we have no more room”, the State will come back and say “figure it out”. Some schools have trailers that serve as classrooms sitting in their parking lots that help with the increased enrollment. 

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6 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Most are funded anywhere from partially to significantly, by tax dollars now.

Vouchers, yes. But infrastructure, transportation, etc. I'm not aware that it is the case but I could be wrong.

But if say a school like Brebeuf received an influx in applicants they can't go to the state and ask for money to build a new wing.

Edited by Footballking16

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1 minute ago, Irishman said:

Not completely accurate in this day and age. Most are funded anywhere from partially to significantly, by tax dollars now. While I agree they do not cap enrollment/admission based on athletics to control the class they are in; the fact is that capping enrollment is a thing. You are right they cannot build new buildings. But if a public school even tried to tell the State “we have no more room”, the State will come back and say “figure it out”. Some schools have trailers that serve as classrooms sitting in their parking lots that help with the increased enrollment. 

You beat me too it. I was at the Red for Ed day downtown and this was a big topic of conversation for down there. 

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3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Vouchers, yes. But infrastructure, transportation, etc. I'm not aware that it is but I could be wrong.

But if say a school like Brebeuf received an influx in applicants they can't go to the state and ask for money to build a new wing.

I agree as far as asking for money for a new wing...as far as the infrastructure, transportation, etc. though, there is no accountability in place for where the voucher dollars are used. So a school COULD use the money for those things.....or anything they choose to actually. And sadly, talking with a number of friends that still teach in those schools, a lot of the money is not reaching the classroom. Salaries are literally too close to the same as they were my last year.......back in the 06-07 school year. 

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8 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

But Carmel has sushi.

Come on man, who ever heard of a kid wanting to "eat his sushi first" at the dinner table? 😃

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8 minutes ago, JQWL said:

but your raw data is skewed because the 700 boys and girls are for grades 9-12. Danville's 58 kids are 9-12. So you're leaving out a pretty important part of your raw data.

I didn't skew any figures I gave. I gave the roster and the total enrollment. I will also throw this raw data out there.

New Palestine - total enrollment 1175 / Roster 58 (including 5 Freshman)

Valparaiso - total enrollment 2054 / Roster 106 (including 11 Freshman)

Center Grove - total enrollment 2521 / Roster 102 (Including 8 Freshman)

 

7 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

Thank you for that statement you beat me too it......Heritage Hills roster was 50 including three or four frosh.  So it would be safe to assume that a school that has +30% of the boys attending playing football does have a slight advantage due to numbers alone.  My lord think of the practices and the availability of getting quality reps in alone vs a school with barely enough to run 11 on 11.  

There was one comment on here about controlling enrollment to stay in a certain class, example Evansville Mater Dei staying in 2A.  The rebuttal was that the school was not controlling enrollment to stay in a certain class but instead controlling enrollment because of the classroom size to adequately handle the number of students.  My thought would be this, if the school is truly not concerned about staying in any certain class, build a bigger school to accommodate the number of students wanting to come.  I mean if that truly is what the issue is (classroomss are only this big so only "x" amount can come), why not have a bigger school, and consequently move up in class size if necessary.  This is something public schools deal with yearly, shrinking/growing enrollment and the affects it has on the class in which you compete. 

Lastly; if there is the perception that p/p schools have no advantage, and it's all just kids vs kids competing, let the best team win.  Then why not do what Tennessee has done, Illinois has done, countless other states have done.........a state tournament for the p/p schools only.  I mean seriously if there isn't an advantage one way or the other, then to me that's the most simple and logical solution.  There will never again be this debate then.......problem solved.

Building a new bigger school or even adding on to the school isn't always a possibility. Many factors go in property size, cost vs funds. Keep in mind these schools charge a tuition for a reason and that tuition goes towards day to day operations of the school. Money isn't just laying around to build that all of the time. Many things that they do get come from donations to the school. Some P/P have in fact added on to their school to accommodate for more students. Some examples would be Roncalli and Cathedral which both have grown exponentially over the years from 3A enrollment numbers to 4A enrollment numbers. It's not as simple as Build a new or bigger school.  

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2 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I agree...as far as the infrastructure, transportation, etc. there is no accountability in place for where the voucher dollars are used. So a school COULD use the money for those things.....or anything they choose to actually. 

I have no clue, but do you think Cathedral, Chatard, etc receive enough voucher money that would appropriately accommodate new infrastructure? I doubt it would. 

I would guess with high conviction that the voucher money Cathedral receives is used exclusively for free and reduced lunches. A big draw for Cathedral as you know is diversity and cutting off supply for free/reduced lunches would be a huge turn off to those considering Cathedral who are less fortunate. I have a pretty good idea that Cathedral's acceptance rate is 90+% and considering the majority of those who apply to Cathedral also apply to Chatard, Brebeuf, Scecina, etc and some that are ultimately accepted don't end up going there which means if you apply, there's an extremely good chance you get in. 

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19 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Wow.......yeah, you just don’t get it. The point is that classifications are based on enrollment. Those kids count in our enrollment, soooooooo they factor into what class our programs are in. It really was not that complicated to figure out though. Yeah, most schools do deal with that population, whereas many pp schools do not have that population, or it is minimal. So the impact of using just enrollment to classify is significant to a LOT schools. 

You brought this hypothetical kid up in relation to my comment about motivating kids to succeed in life.  I responded in kind.  Your original comment had nothing to do with counting special education or special need students in IHSAA enrollment figures.  As such, neither did my response.

I've already made clear elsewhere that I'm generally sympathetic to the argument you're referring to here.  I don't think it really makes that big of a difference in all of this.  But, to be sure, I would be supportive of a policy that excluded such students from the enrollment figures for purposes of classification.  Assuming you don't start bringing home more championships, then what?

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17 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I will assure you there are ZERO private schools who are intentionally capping their enrollment so they can pad their trophy case. This is the single dumbest argument on the GID. 

You understand that private schools aren't funded by tax dollars and they can't just up and build a new building at the snap of their fingers. 

But I will assure you that private schools aren't turning away kids to stay in a certain enrollment based class to win a state title.

Memorial has been practically begging to get more students in the door for years.  And, believe me, they couldn't care less if the student plays any sports.

When I went there, we had around 800 students.  Today, they have around 580.  I'm not privy to any of the budgetary numbers.  But, given the enrollment decline, I'm sure they aren't pretty.

I don't know what the current football cutoff is between 2A and 3A (Mater Dei's listed enrollment is 497).  But I bet we aren't terribly far off from it.

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4 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I didn't skew any figures I gave. I gave the roster and the total enrollment. I will also throw this raw data out there.

New Palestine - total enrollment 1175 / Roster 58 (including 5 Freshman)

Valparaiso - total enrollment 2054 / Roster 106 (including 11 Freshman)

Center Grove - total enrollment 2521 / Roster 102 (Including 8 Freshman)

 

You gave a roster and total enrollment implying that was all the kids playing. I bet New Palestine has more than 5 freshmen in their program. And if they do, those have to be taken into consideration when comparing percentage of kids playing in the building like Heritage Hills.

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4 minutes ago, MHSTigerFan said:

You brought this hypothetical kid up in relation to my comment about motivating kids to succeed in life.  I responded in kind.  Your original comment had nothing to do with counting special education or special need students in IHSAA enrollment figures.  As such, neither did my response.

I've already made clear elsewhere that I'm generally sympathetic to the argument you're referring to here.  I don't think it really makes that big of a difference in all of this.  But, to be sure, I would be supportive of a policy that excluded such students from the enrollment figures for purposes of classification.  Assuming you don't start bringing home more championships, then what?

I did not bring up a hypothetical......these are actual students I have in class. The original post I made the comment in was in regard to the only real advantage a pp school has is tradition and that their kids work harder. The whole purpose of making my point was because those kids count in our enrollment. As far as it not making that big of a difference, for a school like ours, we are a borderline 3A/4A program with participation numbers more in line with a 3A program, so the differences, not just here, but I am sure there are other schools, can be significant. Again, this is in reference to about 10% of our population. When we have just under 1,000 students, it is a significant amount. 

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6 minutes ago, JQWL said:

You gave a roster and total enrollment implying that was all the kids playing. I bet New Palestine has more than 5 freshmen in their program. And if they do, those have to be taken into consideration when comparing percentage of kids playing in the building like Heritage Hills.

No I gave their Varsity Rosters (all teams involved) I didn't differentiate between any of them be it HH, Danville, Chatard, New Pal, Valpo, or Center Grove. Surely you can understand that. I am sure all teams mentioned have a Freshman team and Freshman Roster. I am also unsure why you are being defensive about the numbers I have given. 

Nowhere in my posts have I said there weren't advantages. I will say (and I think @Irishman will agree) it is not only P/P that have advantages. There are Public schools that have advantages over other public schools when you look at Socioeconomics etc.

Edited by FastpacedO

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Just now, FastpacedO said:

No I gave their Varsity Rosters (all teams involved) I didn't differentiate between any of them be it HH, Danville, Chatard, New Pal, Valpo, or Center Grove. Surely you can understand that. I am sure all teams mentioned have a Freshman team and Freshman Roster.

I can understand well enough to know that you're trying to use numbers to make a point but leaving out important facts that would make your argument invalid. It's a tactic used by politicians daily. Thankfully for the rest of us I called you out on in before the charade could continue.

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13 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I can understand well enough to know that you're trying to use numbers to make a point but leaving out important facts that would make your argument invalid. It's a tactic used by politicians daily. Thankfully for the rest of us I called you out on in before the charade could continue.

It's a charade that some schools have higher participation rates than others? 

 

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23 minutes ago, MHSTigerFan said:

Memorial has been practically begging to get more students in the door for years.  And, believe me, they couldn't care less if the student plays any sports.

When I went there, we had around 800 students.  Today, they have around 580.  I'm not privy to any of the budgetary numbers.  But, given the enrollment decline, I'm sure they aren't pretty.

I don't know what the current football cutoff is between 2A and 3A (Mater Dei's listed enrollment is 497).  But I bet we aren't terribly far off from it.

If I could be convinced to live in the sh!th01e called Vanderburgh County, I would send my kids to Memorial (I have worked in Vanderburgh county since 1993).  6k isn't a bad price to pay considering the advantages one gets for that sacrifice.  

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2 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

It's a charade that some schools have higher participation rates than others? 

 

No, not at all. But reporting it incorrectly is.

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6 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I can understand well enough to know that you're trying to use numbers to make a point but leaving out important facts that would make your argument invalid. It's a tactic used by politicians daily. Thankfully for the rest of us I called you out on in before the charade could continue.

I can also understand your sarcastic behavior. Not one time in my posts have I made any argument with any numbers to make anything invalid. You made an assumption. There were comments by a HH person that Chatard had more cheerleaders than they had football players (Inaccurate statement by the way). I gave roster numbers and total enrollment nothing more nothing less.

I also if you take the time to look back at my posts in this thread have NEVER stated that P/P don't have some advantages. The only statement that I have made was that P/P do not control their enrollment numbers to stay in a specific classification for sports. I can definitely talk about advantages that P/P have over Public schools. I can also talk about advantages Public schools have over P/P. I can talk about advantages that some Public schools have over other Public Schools. Instead of assuming (you know the old saying of assume is) I was using those numbers and trying to go on the defensive attack perhaps go back and re-read my posts.

With the numbers I did give I can not presume the number of boys or the number of girls in that total enrollment. Not all schools are split 50/50 among boys and girls. So I can't give those figures. In my personal opinion current Freshman rosters have no bearing on the current Varsity rosters. On occasion you will see a tremendous Freshman play at the 3A-6A for teams. There are far more Freshman playing at the 1A-2A level on varsity rosters. There are on occasions some special Freshman that play for various teams. Charlie Spegal was one that was tremendous his Freshman year for Delta.

I am not quite sure what is so hard to understand about that. 

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12 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Westfield has a Sushi bar one day a week.........the P/P's can't compete.

 

Something about frying the fish takes away the mystique?

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