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Ben Mussolini

What are these advantages that private schools supposedly have?

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3 minutes ago, JQWL said:

No, not at all. But reporting it incorrectly is.

What data do you have that shows the Freshman numbers for Chatard? Trot it out.

1 minute ago, foxbat said:

Something about frying the fish takes away the mystique?

It sounds like at Heritage Hills they may have to fry their own, thus keeping them from participating on the football team.

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1 minute ago, gonzoron said:

What data do you have that shows the Freshman numbers for Chatard? Trot it out.

You'll have to read what I previously wrote.

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4 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I can also understand your sarcastic behavior. Not one time in my posts have I made any argument with any numbers to make anything invalid. You made an assumption. There were comments by a HH person that Chatard had more cheerleaders than they had football players (Inaccurate statement by the way). I gave roster numbers and total enrollment nothing more nothing less.

I also if you take the time to look back at my posts in this thread have NEVER stated that P/P don't have some advantages. The only statement that I have made was that P/P do not control their enrollment numbers to stay in a specific classification for sports. I can definitely talk about advantages that P/P have over Public schools. I can also talk about advantages Public schools have over P/P. I can talk about advantages that some Public schools have over other Public Schools. Instead of assuming (you know the old saying of assume is) I was using those numbers and trying to go on the defensive attack perhaps go back and re-read my posts.

With the numbers I did give I can not presume the number of boys or the number of girls in that total enrollment. Not all schools are split 50/50 among boys and girls. So I can't give those figures. In my personal opinion current Freshman rosters have no bearing on the current Varsity rosters. On occasion you will see a tremendous Freshman play at the 3A-6A for teams. There are far more Freshman playing at the 1A-2A level on varsity rosters. There are on occasions some special Freshman that play for various teams. Charlie Spegal was one that was tremendous his Freshman year for Delta.

I am not quite sure what is so hard to understand about that. 

You're right. When counting participation, all the student athletes that participate should not be counted. Not sure what I was thinking. 

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58 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I will assure you there are ZERO private schools who are intentionally capping their enrollment so they can pad their trophy case. This is the single dumbest argument on the GID. 

You understand that private schools aren't funded by tax dollars and they can't just up and build a new building at the snap of their fingers. 

But I will assure you that private schools aren't turning away kids to stay in a certain enrollment based class to win a state title.

Don't necessarily agree with you about it being the dumbest argument on the GID. 

I will assure you this, you aren't going to totally convince many if any public school backers that one of the main reason P/P schools stay where they are in enrollment IS due to the fact that they have significant success in sports.  C'mon man who do you think that you are fulling???  That could be one of the best selling points P/P schools have to offer kids, especially athletes "do you want play for a state championship in ________________, then enroll here!" (put whatever sport you want in the blank) 

Yes private schools are funded by tax dollars, things have changed.  You are correct, you may not be able to snap fingers and build a school, but there are other means to support more students if that's what P/P schools really wanted!! 

All I know is this:  I think I made the best, most feasible solution earlier!!!  If class size doesn't matter.  If there are no true advantages of public vs private.  If the end game is not to a certainty to achieve athletic success at the highest level and that includes state championships........Then it's simple, have one tournament for P/P schools.  ONE state champ in the P/P class!!  It makes complete sense.   This argument would end so quickly!!

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2 minutes ago, JQWL said:

You'll have to read what I previously wrote.

I read your conjecture. You didn't have any facts. Let's see facts. Otherwise, you're arguing by assumption. We all know what that means.

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7 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I can also understand your sarcastic behavior. Not one time in my posts have I made any argument with any numbers to make anything invalid. You made an assumption. There were comments by a HH person that Chatard had more cheerleaders than they had football players (Inaccurate statement by the way). I gave roster numbers and total enrollment nothing more nothing less.

 

C'mon man!!  Said totally tongue in cheek, don't be so sensitive!!

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1 minute ago, gonzoron said:

I read your conjecture. You didn't have any facts. Let's see facts. Otherwise, you're arguing by assumption. We all know what that means.

I apologize. You're right. MaxPreps doesn't list the JV and Freshman teams of Chatard so I don't exactly know. I assumed numbers for the freshman class were similar to the other 3. I was wrong. Chatard won't be able to field a team in 2 years because they have no one coming up the pipe.

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14 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

If I could be convinced to live in the sh!th01e called Vanderburgh County, I would send my kids to Memorial (I have worked in Vanderburgh county since 1993).  6k isn't a bad price to pay considering the advantages one gets for that sacrifice.  

Blasphemy!!!!  Oh wait we are talking about a Catholic school of faith............I meant ridiculous statement!!!!

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5 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

will assure you this, you aren't going to totally convince many if any public school backers that one of the main reason P/P schools stay where they are in enrollment IS due to the fact that they have significant success in sports.

Has ZERO impact. Not every P/P is an athletic factory and in some cases P/P's are some of the least competitive teams in the their class given the sport. I don't need to convince you, just telling you that you are wrong.

 

7 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

That could be one of the best selling points P/P schools have to offer kids, especially athletes "do you want play for a state championship in ________________, then enroll here!" (put whatever sport you want in the blank) 

If that were the case, wouldn't that lead to more students and subsequently an enrollment spike? Enrollment's at P/P's are on the decline, not the other way around. And it ain't because of their trophy case.

8 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

Yes private schools are funded by tax dollars, things have changed.  You are correct, you may not be able to snap fingers and build a school, but there are other means to support more students if that's what P/P schools really wanted!! 

Yes we've established that P/P's receive voucher money, but that money is used almost elusively towards free/reduced lunches. P/P's can't snap their fingers and have tax dollars allotted to build new infrastructure for an influx of applicants that already doesn't exist.

9 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

All I know is this:  I think I made the best, most feasible solution earlier!!!  If class size doesn't matter.  If there are no true advantages of public vs private.  If the end game is not to a certainty to achieve athletic success at the highest level and that includes state championships........Then it's simple, have one tournament for P/P schools.  ONE state champ in the P/P class!!  It makes complete sense.   This argument would end so quickly!!

An all P/P state tournament would be less competitive than any of the current tournaments. And it's not going to happen.

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16 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

If I could be convinced to live in the sh!th01e called Vanderburgh County, I would send my kids to Memorial (I have worked in Vanderburgh county since 1993).  6k isn't a bad price to pay considering the advantages one gets for that sacrifice.  

Ha!  I hear ya.  I know Memorial is not unique in having a such a great, lifelong familial culture.  But it certainly is that and I’m proud to be associated with it.  What’s great about it, although some people view these sorts of schools as cliquey and exclusionary, is that we welcome with open arms new families who have no prior connection to the school.

And anybody who thinks that most families who send their kids to parochial schools are “rich” is just wrong.  I can’t tell you how many people I know for whom the tuition is a real burden.

But when they ask us for fees to pay for this or that, most families who can afford it will kick in extra to help pay for those who can’t.  Because that’s what families do for each other.

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

An all P/P state tournament would be less competitive than any of the current tournaments. And it's not going to happen.

Ain't gonna happen because the P/P schools don't want it to happen!!!  In retrospect had it happened the way many thought, the 2A championship many thought Mater Dei would/could lay claim to that trophy!!  Had that happened 1A-4A state champs all P/P schools, and that's how EVERYONE likes it!!!  Nah I'm not buying your......"not everyone cares about a trophy case" stuff!!!  Of course school staffs and their students care.  Of course parents care.  Of course administrators care.  C'mon man!! 

And how could this be a tournament less competitive???  Are you telling me that NO OTHER P/P school can compete with Chatard???  Wow never thought I would've seen the day........

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51 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I did not bring up a hypothetical......these are actual students I have in class. The original post I made the comment in was in regard to the only real advantage a pp school has is tradition and that their kids work harder. The whole purpose of making my point was because those kids count in our enrollment. As far as it not making that big of a difference, for a school like ours, we are a borderline 3A/4A program with participation numbers more in line with a 3A program, so the differences, not just here, but I am sure there are other schools, can be significant. Again, this is in reference to about 10% of our population. When we have just under 1,000 students, it is a significant amount. 

You realize that, if the IHSAA made this change, the cutoff points between classes would almost certainly shift down.  Lots of schools would see significant decline in enrollment.  Some more, some less.  But I wouldn’t automatically assume that any particular school would go down in class.

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56 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I did not bring up a hypothetical......these are actual students I have in class. The original post I made the comment in was in regard to the only real advantage a pp school has is tradition and that their kids work harder. The whole purpose of making my point was because those kids count in our enrollment. As far as it not making that big of a difference, for a school like ours, we are a borderline 3A/4A program with participation numbers more in line with a 3A program, so the differences, not just here, but I am sure there are other schools, can be significant. Again, this is in reference to about 10% of our population. When we have just under 1,000 students, it is a significant amount. 

Also, speaking from experience these past several years, 3A has definitely been tougher than 4A in football...whatever that’s worth.

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9 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

Ain't gonna happen because the P/P schools don't want it to happen!!!  In retrospect had it happened the way many thought, the 2A championship many thought Mater Dei would/could lay claim to that trophy!!  Had that happened 1A-4A state champs all P/P schools, and that's how EVERYONE likes it!!!  Nah I'm not buying your......"not everyone cares about a trophy case" stuff!!!  Of course school staffs and their students care.  Of course parents care.  Of course administrators care.  C'mon man!! 

And how could this be a tournament less competitive???  Are you telling me that NO OTHER P/P school can compete with Chatard???  Wow never thought I would've seen the day........

I'm not talking about the state finals guy. I'm talking about the overall competitiveness covering the entire tournament spanning multiple rounds. There's Cathedral, Chatard, teams like Dwenger, Memorial in most years and then a pretty significant drop off after that. Cathedral playing Park Tudor or Herritage Christian? Ya that would would go over well. 

And did I ever say athletics didn't matter at P/P's? No. But athletics aren't the sole reason, let alone half the reason why parents seek them out. A 100% graduation rate and 99% acceptance rate is a lot more appealing to those footing the bill (parents) than a good football team or a girls tennis team.

You aren't this dense in real life are you?

3 minutes ago, MHSTigerFan said:

Also, speaking from experience these past several years, 3A has definitely been tougher than 4A in football...whatever that’s worth.

Well that's because all the good 4A schools are playing up in 5A.

Edited by Footballking16
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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

I'm not talking about the state finals guy. I'm talking about the overall competitiveness between the overall tournament spanning multiple rounds. There's Cathedral, Chatard, teams like Dwenger, Memorial in most years and then a pretty significant drop off after that. Cathedral playing Park Tudor or Herritage Christian? Ya that would would go over well. 

And did I ever say athletics didn't matter at P/P's? No. But athletics aren't the sole reason, let alone half the reason why parents seek them out. A 100% graduation rate and 99% acceptance rate is a lot more to those footing the bill (parents) than a good football team or a girls tennis team.

You aren't this dense in real life are you?

 

It depends what I am talking about and what the argument is. If I feel strongly about something I am going to support it with every fiber of my being!!  IF THAT MAKES ME DENSE THEN DENSE I AM.  You're not this haughty in real life are you??? 

For too long there have been so many exasperated people defending their "honor" for going to, or the reason why people chose P/P schools besides the obvious.  Trust me I get it!!  You are correct, the education most likely IS better than most public schools.  But the irony in all of this is to act like there is no correlation to the success of most all athletic teams as well.  Why is this?????  Just better stock in kids???  Is it genetics???  Is it because they just work harder??? I say not!! 

That's why in one of my earlier arguments I started by saying "you're not going to convince most if any public school supporter......"  That is because public school kids, at least the one that choose to compete, work just as hard as any private school kid.  The public school student with educational ambition will work just as hard as any private school student.  They dedicate their time, and effort just like any!!  But yet year in a year out P/P schools dominate in athletics, for the most part, in 1A-4A and the question then becomes......how????  So there is logic to the public school backer saying things behind closed doors, or at the local bar, exactly what I am saying here!!!  P/P schools have advantages, P/P have made an un-level playing field and extorted loop holes so kids can attend their school mostly no questions asked, whether it for educational or athletic reasons, maybe both!!  These same avenues not always as easy to access in the public school setting especially when it pertains to athletic teams, and IT SUCKS.  Try to explain to young men and women who don't understand how this is fair!!!  You can't.  So I guess I just got a little denser........

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32 minutes ago, MHSTigerFan said:

You realize that, if the IHSAA made this change, the cutoff points between classes would almost certainly shift down.  Lots of schools would see significant decline in enrollment.  Some more, some less.  But I wouldn’t automatically assume that any particular school would go down in class.

I understand that completely, and am fine with that. My only issue is when people try to minimize what the advantages of one building over another are, it is simply an unrealistic view, and I provide specific examples of exactly why it is unrealistic. 

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3 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

That's why in one of my earlier arguments I started by saying "you're not going to convince most if any public school supporter......" 

That's why I said I wasn't going to convince you, just tell you you're wrong.

I'll take my own personal experience along with dozens of others over some emotionallcharged and butt hurt fan who just had their season wrecked by a P/P. I see this every year.

-P/P's don't cap their enrollments to remain in certain classes to pad their trophy cases

-P/P's don't take kids from all over the entire to line their athletic sidelines

-P/P's don't give scholarships out to their athletes

I've been on the GID going on close to 12 years and this type of stuff comes this time of year, every year, usually by the opponent of a team recently smacked by a P/P, namely Chatard or Cathedral. 

There are absolutely inherent advantages that P/P's enjoy over like-sized publics, namely participation rates and parent involvement, and I've never steered from that. But you aren't the first, and certainly won't be the last to suggest that schools like Chatard cap their enrollment so they can stay in a class and pad their trophy case. 

 

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50 minutes ago, MHSTigerFan said:

Ha!  I hear ya.  I know Memorial is not unique in having a such a great, lifelong familial culture.  But it certainly is that and I’m proud to be associated with it.  What’s great about it, although some people view these sorts of schools as cliquey and exclusionary, is that we welcome with open arms new families who have no prior connection to the school.

And anybody who thinks that most families who send their kids to parochial schools are “rich” is just wrong.  I can’t tell you how many people I know for whom the tuition is a real burden.

But when they ask us for fees to pay for this or that, most families who can afford it will kick in extra to help pay for those who can’t.  Because that’s what families do for each other.

No kidding. I worked my tail off to send my kids to Bishop Chatard.

The "rich and spoiled" perception is laughable

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17 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

That's why I said I wasn't going to convince you, just tell you you're wrong.

I'll take my own personal experience along with dozens of others over some emotionallcharged and butt hurt fan who just had their season wrecked by a P/P. I see this every year.

-P/P's don't cap their enrollments to remain in certain classes to pad their trophy cases

-P/P's don't take kids from all over the entire to line their athletic sidelines

-P/P's don't give scholarships out to their athletes

I've been on the GID going on close to 12 years and this type of stuff comes this time of year, every year, usually by the opponent of a team recently smacked by a P/P, namely Chatard or Cathedral. 

There are absolutely inherent advantages that P/P's enjoy over like-sized publics, namely participation rates and parent involvement, and I've never steered from that. But you aren't the first, and certainly won't be the last to suggest that schools like Chatard cap their enrollment so they can stay in a class and pad their trophy case. 

 

Look dude, I ain't butt hurt over nothing.  To be VERY CLEAR I am so proud that my team made it to LOS.  That they played their tales' off against arguably the best team in all of the state!!  That a small rural public school made it thru the toughest class in football to have a chance!!  I too have been on this forum for close to a decade and I have said the same thing every year!!  Had this forum been available 30 years ago I would've been saying the same thing I am today!!

Never said they give scholarships.

Never said they take kids from all over to line the sideline.......but could if they wanted too!!

May not cap their enrollments, in your opinion......but perception is reality, some schools never seem to grow when every other school in the region are !!

I honestly think you might be the one a little tender in certain areas........I mean to think that a country boy from down south, who is public school born a raised would have the audacity to question the likes of you.......  

 

Edited by Patriot 74
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10 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

It depends what I am talking about and what the argument is. If I feel strongly about something I am going to support it with every fiber of my being!!  IF THAT MAKES ME DENSE THEN DENSE I AM.  You're not this haughty in real life are you??? 

I want to ask you some serious questions. How many elementary schools and Middle schools are in Heritage Hills schools system (I believe South Spencer County School system but not positive)? Do each of these elementary schools field a football team and play against each other or do they have a youth league? Does the middle school play against other school districts nearby? Do they run their Flexbone in the youth league or elementary school and at the middle school? 

 

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2 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

May not cap their enrollments, in your opinion......but perception is reality, some schools never seem to grow when every other schools in the region are !!

Perception is reality. Thanks for stating as such.

P/P enrollments are DECLINING. It's ain't cheap to send your kid to a private school. 

Do you have any kind of real life scenario where private schools are rejecting applications? Because I know this isn't the case.

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I try not to get frustrated. Got to keep in mind that we have new people on the GID from time to time, so when the same old trite arguments — which have been thoroughly debunked time and time again — show up, I just breathe deeply and read on. 

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Biggest advantage IMO is the coaches are able to lead in 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

Edited by Screagle

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8 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I want to ask you some serious questions. How many elementary schools and Middle schools are in Heritage Hills schools system (I believe South Spencer County School system but not positive)? Do each of these elementary schools field a football team and play against each other or do they have a youth league? Does the middle school play against other school districts nearby? Do they run their Flexbone in the youth league or elementary school and at the middle school? 

 

Serious answers:

4 grade schools, yes all have a 5th and 6th grade tackle team.  They play each other and area schools.

1 middle school.  Middle school plays a nine game schedule against conference teams and two non conference teams both from 4A schools

The elementary and middle school team run the exact same offense and exact same defense as the varsity!!  The elementary may be more wishbone heavy, but still the same.

 

Serious question........how does this pertain to the advantage a P/P school has over a public school.  Heritage has been an outstanding program for the past 2/3 decades.  It has done it the right way with home grown coaches most of whom have played in the system and came back to coach!!  The argument here is whether P/P schools have more or any advantages when it comes to athletics vs public.  My answer will always be YES!!

Edited by Patriot 74

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