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19 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Looks to me like 1 OL and 6 guys lining up in ‘no man’s land.’ 
 

To each his own, I guess. Glad I don’t have to scheme to stop it. 

I noticed New Pal vertically lining up like this in their title game (only game I viewed of theirs this season) vs Valpo. No penalties assessed. Legal. 

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34 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Looks to me like 1 OL and 6 guys lining up in ‘no man’s land.’ 
 

To each his own, I guess. Glad I don’t have to scheme to stop it. 

An offensive player is on the line of scrimmage when his foot or head penetrates the plane drawn through the waistline of the snapper. These players are not in “no man’s land.” They are on the line of scrimmage.

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2 hours ago, Bobref said:

An offensive player is on the line of scrimmage when his foot or head penetrates the plane drawn through the waistline of the snapper. These players are not in “no man’s land.” They are on the line of scrimmage.

The left side looked good the whole first drive. It did appear that the right side pushed the limit a bit. The angle is hard to tell for certain, I admit. But there is a play at about the 8:35 mark. The helmets of the linemen on the right are barely even with the behind of the center?? 

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16 minutes ago, Irishman said:

The left side looked good the whole first drive. It did appear that the right side pushed the limit a bit. The angle is hard to tell for certain, I admit. But there is a play at about the 8:35 mark. The helmets of the linemen on the right are barely even with the behind of the center?? 

That’s not a call you want to nitpick. Proper way to handle it when they push the limit is for the wing official to communicate with the coach and tell him they need to move up a bit.

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1 hour ago, Bobref said:

That’s not a call you want to nitpick. Proper way to handle it when they push the limit is for the wing official to communicate with the coach and tell him they need to move up a bit.

Irishman referenced the first play of the game at the 8:35 mark of the video. Here is 2 and 7. Second play of the game. I certainly don’t see a plane drawn from the waist of the center through the other linemen. 
 

You can call it nitpicky, but if I think a team is pushing the limit to gain a competitive advantage, it would frustrate me.

I would rather you say ‘We’re not going to call it because they do it every play’ than try to tell me I’m not seeing what I am seeing. 

90B9FEAE-BEDC-484D-A842-F36C19A5698B.png

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44 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Irishman referenced the first play of the game at the 8:35 mark of the video. Here is 2 and 7. Second play of the game. I certainly don’t see a plane drawn from the waist of the center through the other linemen. 
 

You can call it nitpicky, but if I think a team is pushing the limit to gain a competitive advantage, it would frustrate me.

I would rather you say ‘We’re not going to call it because they do it every play’ than try to tell me I’m not seeing what I am seeing. 

90B9FEAE-BEDC-484D-A842-F36C19A5698B.png

Again, that’s a “talk-to,” not a foul. Don’t go looking for trouble.

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2 hours ago, Bobref said:

Again, that’s a “talk-to,” not a foul. Don’t go looking for trouble.

Agreed. This view is a talk to especially on the 2nd play of the game. They do it again this far back and it's a flag. They were warned and asked to be moved up. If they are further back than this it could be a flag the first time.

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On 12/18/2019 at 9:38 PM, oldtimeqb said:

Irishman referenced the first play of the game at the 8:35 mark of the video. Here is 2 and 7. Second play of the game. I certainly don’t see a plane drawn from the waist of the center through the other linemen. 
 

You can call it nitpicky, but if I think a team is pushing the limit to gain a competitive advantage, it would frustrate me.

I would rather you say ‘We’re not going to call it because they do it every play’ than try to tell me I’m not seeing what I am seeing. 

90B9FEAE-BEDC-484D-A842-F36C19A5698B.png

Can you expand on what advantage being so far behind the center would provide an OL?? More space to gain momentum on a run block? Easier to get to pulling lanes?? 

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22 hours ago, jets said:

Can you expand on what advantage being so far behind the center would provide an OL?? More space to gain momentum on a run block? Easier to get to pulling lanes?? 

It is a decided advantage to the OL in at least three situations--1) Very difficult for DL to make contact with OL as OL is down blocking/down blocking to 2nd level guys (Allows for a free release to LB's) 2) A real advantage for the OL to get a step or 2 in before contacting DL when zone blocking-particularly on outsize zone 3) When they can get set up on their pass pro and be ready to engage a pass rusher-A lot easier with that added depth (It's also easier to pick up twists and blitzes).  

The problem with an official simply handling this between plays is that it will fix the situation for a short stretch of the game, but if the OL is being coached to do this, they are also being coached to stretch it back out again in a fairly short period of time. Until there are teeth to the correction, teams that do this will keep doing it and keep gaining that extra edge.

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4 hours ago, Bullhorn99 said:

It is a decided advantage to the OL in at least three situations--1) Very difficult for DL to make contact with OL as OL is down blocking/down blocking to 2nd level guys (Allows for a free release to LB's) 2) A real advantage for the OL to get a step or 2 in before contacting DL when zone blocking-particularly on outsize zone 3) When they can get set up on their pass pro and be ready to engage a pass rusher-A lot easier with that added depth (It's also easier to pick up twists and blitzes).  

The problem with an official simply handling this between plays is that it will fix the situation for a short stretch of the game, but if the OL is being coached to do this, they are also being coached to stretch it back out again in a fairly short period of time. Until there are teeth to the correction, teams that do this will keep doing it and keep gaining that extra edge.

The warning between plays is usually only given once. If they do it again whether it's the next play or 3 series later it will be a foul. If they are well behind the snapper it will be a foul the first time. Warnings are only given if it's close.

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On 1/11/2020 at 3:17 PM, jets said:

Can you expand on what advantage being so far behind the center would provide an OL?? More space to gain momentum on a run block? Easier to get to pulling lanes?? 

I would assume so, but you would have to talk with an old lineman and not an old skill guy! LOL  I would guess Bullhorn's explanation would be as good as any.  I was more of the opinion that if a rule was not being followed by one of the teams and not enforced by officials it would create a competitive advantage.  I was afraid I was going to have to pull a Lt. Kaffee/ Col. Jessup exchange on Bobref something like this: 

Me: Why the two orders, Bobref? I said the linemen were in no-man's land, you said they were not and gave me the definition.  I can have the court reporter read it back to you.... Then I posted a picture and you said the linemen just needed a "talk to" and it wasn't a foul.  So why the two orders?  If they're not in no-man's land, why do they need a "talk to"?   I want the TRUTH!

Bobref: You can't handle the truth! I've officiated games and seen offensive formations your mind can't even fathom.  You want me to throw the flag, you need me to throw the flag.  Because we play a game that has rules.  And those rules need to be enforced.  We use phrases like "preventive officiating" and "talk to",  and you use them as punchline.  Unless you're willing to pick up a whistle and man a crew on Friday nights, I would rather you say thank you and just be on your way.

[I mean this with all due respect and completely in jest.  Frankly, it's the offseason, and I'm bored. LOL] 

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3 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

I would assume so, but you would have to talk with an old lineman and not an old skill guy! LOL  I would guess Bullhorn's explanation would be as good as any.  I was more of the opinion that if a rule was not being followed by one of the teams and not enforced by officials it would create a competitive advantage.  I was afraid I was going to have to pull a Lt. Kaffee/ Col. Jessup exchange on Bobref something like this: 

Me: Why the two orders, Bobref? I said the linemen were in no-man's land, you said they were not and gave me the definition.  I can have the court reporter read it back to you.... Then I posted a picture and you said the linemen just needed a "talk to" and it wasn't a foul.  So why the two orders?  If they're not in no-man's land, why do they need a "talk to"?   I want the TRUTH!

Bobref: You can't handle the truth! I've officiated games and seen offensive formations your mind can't even fathom.  You want me to throw the flag, you need me to throw the flag.  Because we play a game that has rules.  And those rules need to be enforced.  We use phrases like "preventive officiating" and "talk to",  and you use them as punchline.  Unless you're willing to pick up a whistle and man a crew on Friday nights, I would rather you say thank you and just be on your way.

[I mean this with all due respect and completely in jest.  Frankly, it's the offseason, and I'm bored. LOL] 

Get help. 😜

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On 12/18/2019 at 4:32 PM, oldtimeqb said:

Looks to me like 1 OL and 6 guys lining up in ‘no man’s land.’ 
 

To each his own, I guess. Glad I don’t have to scheme to stop it. 

Just about any wing or straight t team will line their OL in this way.  They're not any more off the line than many WR's typically are when they're considered on.  Maybe spread teams don't benefit as much from the spacing that this alignment creates, so it's not seen as often. I would argue that spread teams often will violate the illegal man downfield on RPO's, though.  I don't think being lined up head-to-hip on the center is anywhere near the advantage as the RPO games that are played.  I guess it comes down to how much officials want to nitpick.

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On 1/11/2020 at 4:17 PM, jets said:

Can you expand on what advantage being so far behind the center would provide an OL?? More space to gain momentum on a run block? Easier to get to pulling lanes?? 

Wing teams will use it to create better angles on down and cross blocks.

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On 12/18/2019 at 10:23 PM, Bobref said:

Again, that’s a “talk-to,” not a foul. Don’t go looking for trouble.

But if you did talk to them and they continued to do it, I'm guessing the infraction would be more than 4 players in the backfield?  Since the rule changed to say it was no longer 7 players on the LOS but no more than 4 players in the backfield ( I know the only possible way for an offensive unit to have less than 7 on the line of scrimmage would be to only have 10 players on the field, which is not an infraction).

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5 hours ago, FBO said:

But if you did talk to them and they continued to do it, I'm guessing the infraction would be more than 4 players in the backfield?  Since the rule changed to say it was no longer 7 players on the LOS but no more than 4 players in the backfield ( I know the only possible way for an offensive unit to have less than 7 on the line of scrimmage would be to only have 10 players on the field, which is not an infraction).

Correct with one minor semantic question. The foul before and now is actually illegal formation. What changed is the number that triggers it. Essentially you've always needed at least 7 on the line and no more than 4 in the backfield assuming you have 11 players. The previous rule focus on the 7 on the line. The bad part of that is a team only sent out 10 players and the missing player was someone on the line, they committed a foul even though they were at the disadvantage. The primary thing the rule change last yea did was make that no longer a foul. As long as you have no more than 4 in the backfield you are legal.

If you warned them on this once and they continued to do it, it would definitely be a foul.

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