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SIAC vs The SAC - Who now has the upper hand?


Guest DT

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2 hours ago, Gipper said:

The talent is there, as well as the numbers.    I just am unsure and their typical brand of smash mouth football can compete with the schools downstate. 

Its a numbers/SES game.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I don't think the "brand of football" plays a significant factor.

Its an huge uphill battle for anyone in 6A that is not in the Indy metro area.

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2 hours ago, Temptation said:

Its a numbers/SES game.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I don't think the "brand of football" plays a significant factor.

Its an huge uphill battle for anyone in 6A that is not in the Indy metro area.

I agree, it's not the brand, it's the coaching........................and the numbers. 

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On 12/18/2019 at 10:56 PM, psaboy said:

You may have North Side bumping up to the second tier in the SAC in 2020. I think they have a good core coming back?? SAC is easily the #3 

Honestly, I'm not sure what they have coming back. Probably most important component is coach Mike Brevard. He seems to have them on the upswing. There is some talent at North Side and they always seem to pick up a coach who knows what to do with it. Kasey Kolkman (7-4 in 2008. Losing to Snider by 1 in the second round). Ryan Hall (9-3 in 2012. Losing to Snider by 10 in the sectional championship. Snider went on to represent the north. Then losing to Snider in overtime a year later). Mike Brevard (improvement in each of his first 3 seasons). 

Remember the Dale Doerffler days? North Side has some bad a@# teams under his reign. He beat Snider 6 times in a row between 1987 and 1991. Sandwiched right in between two of Snider's greatest teams of all time.................1986 under Mike Hawley and 1992 under Russ Isaacs. 

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Nothing to do with this thread, so hope it's ok to ask here. Didn't know quite else how to do it, but did they tear down the old Elmhurst building? Wasn't it on Ardmore by the bus barn? Went by there today and just a big empty lot......I hate progress sometimes.

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5 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Nothing to do with this thread, so hope it's ok to ask here. Didn't know quite else how to do it, but did they tear down the old Elmhurst building? Wasn't it on Ardmore by the bus barn? Went by there today and just a big empty lot......I hate progress sometimes.

Torn down.  Elmhurst has somehow reappeared on the IHSAA membership map, even though it has been closed for a decade and the building no longer stands.

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1 hour ago, BTF said:

I agree, it's not the brand, it's the coaching........................and the numbers. 

Can you expand?  The quality of coaching?  The candidates themselves?  

I can't speak for EVERY Indy metro school but I think along these same lines, responsibilities and expectations could differ.  I can tell you based on first hand knowledge that "most" mega school coaches in the Indy area have "cush" job responsibilities from 7-3pm and are there to coach first, teach second.  Its a sad state of affairs but with passionate folks like us on message boards talking about the sport we love, its probably not going to get better.

On the surface it sounds ridiculous as I typed it because it is HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETICS.

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18 hours ago, Temptation said:

Can you expand?  The quality of coaching?  The candidates themselves?  

I can't speak for EVERY Indy metro school but I think along these same lines, responsibilities and expectations could differ.  I can tell you based on first hand knowledge that "most" mega school coaches in the Indy area have "cush" job responsibilities from 7-3pm and are there to coach first, teach second.  Its a sad state of affairs but with passionate folks like us on message boards talking about the sport we love, its probably not going to get better.

On the surface it sounds ridiculous as I typed it because it is HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETICS.

I don't think being a high school football coach is any different than any other profession. Whoever works the hardest and puts the most time in is the most successful in their field of work. You can point fingers at this or that, but at the end of the day, the head coach needs to be held accountable. I understand some schools put coaches in a better position than others. And some programs require 5 or 6 years to build something versus others. But when it's all said and done with, the main success of a program begins and ends with the head coach. 

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2 hours ago, BTF said:

I don't think being a high school football coach is any different than any other profession. Whoever works the hardest and puts the most time in is the most successful in their field of work. You can point fingers at this or that, but at the end of the day, the head coach needs to be held accountable. I understand some schools put coaches in a better position than others. And some programs require 5 or 6 years to build something versus others. But when it's all said and done with, the main success of a program begins and ends with the head coach. 

 I’ll politely disagree.  Many folks have a much taller mountain to climb than others and “work harder” simply isn’t the solution.

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On 12/20/2019 at 3:10 PM, BTF said:

Honestly, I'm not sure what they have coming back. Probably most important component is coach Mike Brevard. He seems to have them on the upswing. There is some talent at North Side and they always seem to pick up a coach who knows what to do with it. Kasey Kolkman (7-4 in 2008. Losing to Snider by 1 in the second round). Ryan Hall (9-3 in 2012. Losing to Snider by 10 in the sectional championship. Snider went on to represent the north. Then losing to Snider in overtime a year later). Mike Brevard (improvement in each of his first 3 seasons). 

Remember the Dale Doerffler days? North Side has some bad a@# teams under his reign. He beat Snider 6 times in a row between 1987 and 1991. Sandwiched right in between two of Snider's greatest teams of all time.................1986 under Mike Hawley and 1992 under Russ Isaacs. 

Yes, I remember Doerffler, I think he was at Snider when I went their. They had some good teams at North when he was coaching them. I always wondered why he left north. I think SAC bottom third of conference will be better, maybe more balance next year then this??

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20 hours ago, Temptation said:

 I’ll politely disagree.  Many folks have a much taller mountain to climb than others and “work harder” simply isn’t the solution.

I would say "working harder" is one piece of the puzzle, but certainly not the only solution. I did say in my post that "that some schools put coaches in better positions than others"........I was referring to the "mountain" you speak of. I always said a good college football program was determined by 1/2 good coaching and 1/2 good recruiting. At the high school level I'm thinking 1/3 coaching, 1/3 enrollment numbers, 1/3 socioeconomic factors? Or maybe 40/30/30? There could be some differing opinion on this. 

I think FW North and FW South are good examples of what can be accomplished in a lower socioeconomic situation. SS had success between 2002 and 2009. NS has been hit or miss every since Doerffler left after 1996. 

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12 hours ago, psaboy said:

Yes, I remember Doerffler, I think he was at Snider when I went their. They had some good teams at North when he was coaching them. I always wondered why he left north. I think SAC bottom third of conference will be better, maybe more balance next year then this??

Snider, Homestead, and Carroll will all be strong contenders from sectional 3. Dwenger will once again be a contender to win state. Northrop is due for a breakout season at some point..........I think the coaching is pretty good over there. Concordia and Luers are always dangerous and North Side appears to be on the upswing. Wayne has proved that it can be successful under Eric Moore. South is the only weak link in in my opinion. 

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12 hours ago, BTF said:

I would say "working harder" is one piece of the puzzle, but certainly not the only solution. I did say in my post that "that some schools put coaches in better positions than others"........I was referring to the "mountain" you speak of. I always said a good college football program was determined by 1/2 good coaching and 1/2 good recruiting. At the high school level I'm thinking 1/3 coaching, 1/3 enrollment numbers, 1/3 socioeconomic factors? Or maybe 40/30/30? There could be some differing opinion on this. 

I think FW North and FW South are good examples of what can be accomplished in a lower socioeconomic situation. SS had success between 2002 and 2009. NS has been hit or miss every since Doerffler left after 1996. 

Gimme:  

40 (enrollment)

40 (SES)

20 (coaching)

 

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10 hours ago, Temptation said:

Gimme:  

40 (enrollment)

40 (SES)

20 (coaching)

 

Posted this quickly last night and felt it deserves further explanation.

Some folks think it might be disrespectful to coaches or not giving credit where it is due but there are certain places where:

A:  Due to steep enrollment/SES discrepancies, Nick Saban/Urban Meyer could not turn certain programs into contenders.

B:  Some places with built in advantages due to the above factors simply require a competent coach who can steer the train and keep it on the tracks.

If folks would like for me to provide school specific examples of the above categories I would be willing to do so.

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2 hours ago, Temptation said:

Posted this quickly last night and felt it deserves further explanation.

Some folks think it might be disrespectful to coaches or not giving credit where it is due but there are certain places where:

A:  Due to steep enrollment/SES discrepancies, Nick Saban/Urban Meyer could not turn certain programs into contenders.

B:  Some places with built in advantages due to the above factors simply require a competent coach who can steer the train and keep it on the tracks.

If folks would like for me to provide school specific examples of the above categories I would be willing to do so.

I would like a couple of examples if you don't mind taking the time.

I'm still at:

40 (Coaching)

30 (Enrollment)

30 (SES)

 

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5 minutes ago, BTF said:

I would like a couple of examples if you don't mind taking the time.

I'm still at:

40 (Coaching)

30 (Enrollment)

30 (SES)

 

Since the majority of this thread has been focused on the 6A level...

A:  Arsenal Tech, Perry Meridian, Southport.  All three schools basically have the same enrollment as Center Grove but more than triple the amount of F/R/L students.  Could each rise up and have a solid season here or there?  Sure.  But are they going to consistently compete with Carmel, Warren, or Ben Davis?  Nope.  
 

B:  Carmel, BD, Warren.  Walk the halls, get the right kids out, and coach them up and you’re guaranteed a minimum of eight wins a year.  Even portrayed “down periods” for the schools don’t last long.  

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On 12/23/2019 at 8:06 AM, Temptation said:

Posted this quickly last night and felt it deserves further explanation.

Some folks think it might be disrespectful to coaches or not giving credit where it is due but there are certain places where:

A:  Due to steep enrollment/SES discrepancies, Nick Saban/Urban Meyer could not turn certain programs into contenders into contenders.

Contenders for what? State championships? Conference championships? Simply turn a perennial loser into a consistent winner? I would argue that at ALMOST any school, the right coach could turn them into a team that consistently puts up a winning record. 

I would also argue the following:

Admin 40%

Coaching 40%

Socioeconomics 10%

Conference 10%

Edited by vicvinegar
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1 hour ago, vicvinegar said:

Contenders for what? State championships? Conference championships? Simply turn a perennial loser into a consistent winner? I would argue that at ALMOST any school, the right coach could turn them into a team that consistently puts up a winning record. 

I would also argue the following:

Admin 40%

Coaching 40%

Socioeconomics 10%

Conference 10%

Contenders for titles/state championships.  Those programs I mentioned above are in eternal purgatory.  
 

 

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16 hours ago, vicvinegar said:

Contenders for what? State championships? Conference championships? Simply turn a perennial loser into a consistent winner? I would argue that at ALMOST any school, the right coach could turn them into a team that consistently puts up a winning record. 

I would also argue the following:

Admin 40%

Coaching 40%

Socioeconomics 10%

Conference 10%

Enrollment?

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Despite all the numbers, Sagarin ratings, historical perspective, etc  I believe the competitive profiles of these two conferences are closer than most realize.

SW Indiana football has arguably seen the greatest stretch of overall performance improvement than any other area of the state over the past 5 years.  This improvement has coincided with declines throughout northern Indiana and stabilization in central Indiana and the greater Indy metro area.

You also cannot discount the introduction of a blueblood program like Jasper, one of the all time most successful high school programs in the state.   Its like Nebraska joining the Big Ten.  

Note - I am looking both at past performance and potential future expectations.  I think we will likely see Vincennes elevate as well as they are now playing in a big boy league.

After reading and contributing to this forum for 15 years, its become clear to me that the SW Indiana football people have a big chip on their shoulder.  They don't like being excluded from the big picture statewide narrative, so they set their own rules.  They have their own rankings, their own separate discussions, and focus on their own geography more than any other area of the state, including Ft Wayne.  I like their approach.  That chip is a healthy one.  It will continue to drive the SIAC up the competitive ladder.  

Edited by DT
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24 minutes ago, DT said:

Despite all the numbers, Sagarin ratings, historical perspective, etc  I believe the competitive profiles of these two conferences are closer than most realize.

SW Indiana football has arguably seen the greatest stretch of overall performance improvement than any other area of the state over the past 5 years.  This improvement has coincided with declines throughout northern Indiana and stabilization in central Indiana and the greater Indy metro area.

You also cannot discount the introduction of a blueblood program like Jasper, one of the all time most successful high school programs in the state.   Its like Nebraska joining the Big Ten.  

Note - I am looking both at past performance and potential future expectations.  I think we will likely see Vincennes elevate as well as they are now playing in a big boy league.

After reading and contributing to this forum for 15 years, its become clear to me that the SW Indiana football people have a big chip on their shoulder.  They don't like being excluded from the big picture statewide narrative, so they set their own rules.  They have their own rankings, their own separate discussions, and focus on their own geography more than any other area of the state, including Ft Wayne.  I like their approach.  That chip is a healthy one.  It will continue to drive the SIAC up the competitive ladder.  

You had me sold until this line.  While the comparison to Nebraska may be apt, it certainly doesn’t strengthen your case as they’ve done nothing of significance since joining the Big Ten.

Which begs two additional questions I’d like the boards feedback on...

1.  What does a school/program need to do to achieve “blue blood status?”

2.  Is that status a lifetime award or can it be revoked?

Nebraska used to be a blue blood in my opinion but they now have over a decades worth of consecutive four or more loss seasons...

Admittedly I am not an expert on Southwestern Indiana football, but looking at Jasper’s resume I’m not sure they ever qualified based on my rubric...

 

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Answering the two questions above in my opinion:

1.  The definition of blue blood status in my opinion is consistent success and state wide(high school)/national (collegiate) relevance in the postseason over decades...(sorry Jasper)

2.  Based on the above, that status can be revoked.  Even the best programs have down years but bounce back...Nebraska has not.

Collegiate examples on question 2:

Indiana Basketball

Nebraska Football

 

 

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44 minutes ago, DT said:

Despite all the numbers, Sagarin ratings, historical perspective, etc  I believe the competitive profiles of these two conferences are closer than most realize.

SW Indiana football has arguably seen the greatest stretch of overall performance improvement than any other area of the state over the past 5 years.  This improvement has coincided with declines throughout northern Indiana and stabilization in central Indiana and the greater Indy metro area.

You also cannot discount the introduction of a blueblood program like Jasper, one of the all time most successful high school programs in the state.   Its like Nebraska joining the Big Ten.  

Note - I am looking both at past performance and potential future expectations.  I think we will likely see Vincennes elevate as well as they are now playing in a big boy league.

After reading and contributing to this forum for 15 years, its become clear to me that the SW Indiana football people have a big chip on their shoulder.  They don't like being excluded from the big picture statewide narrative, so they set their own rules.  They have their own rankings, their own separate discussions, and focus on their own geography more than any other area of the state, including Ft Wayne.  I like their approach.  That chip is a healthy one.  It will continue to drive the SIAC up the competitive ladder.  

And one more thing while my scrambled mind is thinking of it.

I could not agree more than about the fandom and chip on the shoulder possessed by those in Southwest Indiana. I feel the same goes on in Northwest Indiana.  Once again not close to the situation but I will leave that “region pride” is a real thing, but you know more than me.

they seem to always feel slighted, and whether perceived or real, turn it into motivation and support one another when they make it to the big stage

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