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Allen is killing Indiana small college football

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5 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

while many PWOs never see the field, some become scholarship players, team captains and more, but all have the opportunity to pursue a degree from a world-class university. 

PWO status is not needed to accomplish any of this. 
This is just a tool to lure kids in.  Nothing special. 

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10 hours ago, Muda69 said:

All is see is a square, no image or anything.  Sorry.

 

It was my mouth zipped shut! Just trying to be funny!

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20 hours ago, eschnur66 said:

There is only one public university in the state of Indiana that has any type of Ivy in its broad reputation. It is not located in Bloomington!

if you're referring to Purdue, poison ivy doesn't count.........😁

That was more for Coach N!

Edited by TrojanDad
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21 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Please expound on this "Public Ivy" designation.  I have never heard of it before now.

 

I had to look that one up...pretty interesting.  Nice representation of Big 10 schools to the public ivy's list.  Surprised not to see Purdue and Northwestern.

Looks like the originial list was published in 1985, and Michigan was the only Big 10 school then to make it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy

image.thumb.png.e2c546562eb7914d3fdcf6c35fc52146.png

Another source....same original and current school listing

https://prepexpert.com/public-ivy/

Current list....31 schools comprise the Public Ivy's list.

https://www.universityreview.org/list-of-public-ivy-schools/

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7 hours ago, eschnur66 said:

It was my mouth zipped shut! Just trying to be funny!

I dug what you had to say.  Both Purdue and (to a lesser extent) IU are both great institutions for which be should be proud.

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On 2/19/2020 at 1:26 PM, JustRules said:

Those D3 programs have made the playoffs, but in general the HCAC conference champs are lower quality than the winners of the other D3 conferences. It's very rare for them to win a playoff game and most of the HCAC teams go 0-2 in non-conference play. It's still decent football, and I don't see a few extra PWOs will have much of an impact to that.

Definitely understand your point but all everyone sees is the final score. People don't realize that over the past two years in the tournament Hanover has been significantly hindered by injuries. This year alone against Mt. Union they didn't have: 1st team all conference starting QB, all-american potential LB, all american 3T DL, 1st team all conference CB, and a banged up offensive line. Obviously not an excuse (most likely don't beat UMU anyways) but if Hanover would have gotten Hope College's NCAA draw they definitely win a playoff game. HCAC has their years in terms of quality at a national level but the conference is top heavy which hurts them nationally. 

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2 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

if you're referring to Purdue, poison ivy doesn't count.........😁

That was more for Coach N!

OUCH!!@!

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1 hour ago, Coach Nowlin said:

OUCH!!@!

nothing but love Coach!!

Not an IU alum Coach...but kid #3 is now going there following the other 2.  Man, have I become a shareholder.  When do I get my free polo shirt?????

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1 hour ago, PantherBall20 said:

Definitely understand your point but all everyone sees is the final score. People don't realize that over the past two years in the tournament Hanover has been significantly hindered by injuries. This year alone against Mt. Union they didn't have: 1st team all conference starting QB, all-american potential LB, all american 3T DL, 1st team all conference CB, and a banged up offensive line. Obviously not an excuse (most likely don't beat UMU anyways) but if Hanover would have gotten Hope College's NCAA draw they definitely win a playoff game. HCAC has their years in terms of quality at a national level but the conference is top heavy which hurts them nationally. 

I can only remember 1 or 2 NCAA tournament wins in the past 15 years by HCAC teams. Most of them enter the conference season 0-2 or 0-3 and they aren't all playing Mount Union or Whitewater or North Central/Wheaton. Hanover lost to Centre last year in week 1. Centre is generally a top 20 team, but they went on to finish 5-5 last year. I wouldn't say the HCAC is top heavy. The past few years 4 of the 8 teams have been battling for the title into the last weeks of the season (Franklin, Rose-Hulman, Mt. St. Joe and either Hanover or Bluffton). Even when Franklin was winning it very year some of those teams would be competitive with them. It feels more like Franklin has come back to the pack than the other teams jumping up to get them. Anderson and Manchester are improving and Bluffton and Defiance are up and down.

Don't get me wrong though. It's still good small college football and the coaches and players are talented. Top to bottom they just don't compete with other conferences in the area. I expect they would have had a similar fate against Wartburg that Hope had (lost 41-3). For comparison Hope beat Defiance 80-6 and Manchester 38-21. Hanover beat those teams 42-0 and 56-7 respectively so I would have them fairly even. As another comparison, Hope beat Albion by 19 and Albion beat Franklin by 22. There are other playoff teams the HCAC could compete with but as long as they are surrounded by the OAC, CCIW, and WIAC the winner will likely match up with them most years. The MIAA and NCAC are both probably slightly better as well.

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6 hours ago, JustRules said:

I can only remember 1 or 2 NCAA tournament wins in the past 15 years by HCAC teams. Most of them enter the conference season 0-2 or 0-3 and they aren't all playing Mount Union or Whitewater or North Central/Wheaton. Hanover lost to Centre last year in week 1. Centre is generally a top 20 team, but they went on to finish 5-5 last year. I wouldn't say the HCAC is top heavy. The past few years 4 of the 8 teams have been battling for the title into the last weeks of the season (Franklin, Rose-Hulman, Mt. St. Joe and either Hanover or Bluffton). Even when Franklin was winning it very year some of those teams would be competitive with them. It feels more like Franklin has come back to the pack than the other teams jumping up to get them. Anderson and Manchester are improving and Bluffton and Defiance are up and down.

Don't get me wrong though. It's still good small college football and the coaches and players are talented. Top to bottom they just don't compete with other conferences in the area. I expect they would have had a similar fate against Wartburg that Hope had (lost 41-3). For comparison Hope beat Defiance 80-6 and Manchester 38-21. Hanover beat those teams 42-0 and 56-7 respectively so I would have them fairly even. As another comparison, Hope beat Albion by 19 and Albion beat Franklin by 22. There are other playoff teams the HCAC could compete with but as long as they are surrounded by the OAC, CCIW, and WIAC the winner will likely match up with them most years. The MIAA and NCAC are both probably slightly better as well.

My point, IU benefits little by luring kids with PWO status. The others colleges would benefit greatly across the board, with some of these kids.  Sorry Trojan , facts are facts. 

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On 2/24/2020 at 4:27 PM, southend said:

PWO status is not needed to accomplish any of this. 
This is just a tool to lure kids in.  Nothing special. 

South end must know someone getting a PWO who is better than someone he has a personal connection with.  OR someone Walked on  from his high school when he was younger and he didn’t and he still can’t let it go.   

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7 hours ago, OldschoolFB said:

South end must know someone getting a PWO who is better than someone he has a personal connection with.  OR someone Walked on  from his high school when he was younger and he didn’t and he still can’t let it go.   

Nothing personal Oldschool. Just years of observing.  PWO is a detriment.  

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19 hours ago, southend said:

My point, IU benefits little by luring kids with PWO status. The others colleges would benefit greatly across the board, with some of these kids.  Sorry Trojan , facts are facts. 

You have zero fact and 100% opinion.  Hot air.

I have given you countless examples of strong programs outside of D1 in Indiana....examples of walk-ons earning scholarships at the D1 level.  I've seen absolutely NOTHING from you that confirms any decay in football below D1.  I did notice your errors about Indiana State and Ball State, not realizing they are D1 programs.  

I am waiting on some facts that demonstrate decay in football below D1.....do you have anything at all?

Edited by TrojanDad
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On 2/25/2020 at 9:04 AM, TrojanDad said:

I had to look that one up...pretty interesting.  Nice representation of Big 10 schools to the public ivy's list.  Surprised not to see Purdue and Northwestern.

Looks like the originial list was published in 1985, and Michigan was the only Big 10 school then to make it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy

image.thumb.png.e2c546562eb7914d3fdcf6c35fc52146.png

Another source....same original and current school listing

https://prepexpert.com/public-ivy/

Current list....31 schools comprise the Public Ivy's list.

https://www.universityreview.org/list-of-public-ivy-schools/

But, but I just saw this on a website:

 

IndianaWorst.jpg

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1 hour ago, TrojanDad said:

have given you countless examples of strong programs outside of D1 in Indiana...

 

Edited 1 hour ago by TrojanDad

Justrules out lined the mediocre state of a lot of smaller schools in Indiana. 

Fact is Pow hurts Indiana’s smaller schools more than it helps IU. 

1 hour ago, TrojanDad said:

examples of walk-ons earning scholarships at the D1 level. 

For every 1 of your examples I could name 10,20 maybe 30 that didn’t? 
but again you have missed the point. 

Fact is PWO hurts Indiana’s smaller schools more than it helps IU.

1 hour ago, TrojanDad said:

did notice your errors about Indiana State and Ball State, not realizing they are D1

No error, those schools are probably hurt the worst. 
Again you don’t get it. 
Fact, PWO’s hurts Indiana’s smaller schools more than it helps IU. 

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16 minutes ago, southend said:

Justrules out lined the mediocre state of a lot of smaller schools in Indiana. 

Fact is Pow hurts Indiana’s smaller schools more than it helps IU. 

For every 1 of your examples I could name 10,20 maybe 30 that didn’t? 
but again you have missed the point. 

Fact is PWO hurts Indiana’s smaller schools more than it helps IU.

No error, those schools are probably hurt the worst. 
Again you don’t get it. 
Fact, PWO’s hurts Indiana’s smaller schools more than it helps IU. 

All I am asking is that you either provide specific examples in which the offering of PWO's have absolutely been the cause of decay in small college football, or simply admit your voice is nothing more than an opinion.

You also put words in JustRules mouth....he did not correlate Allen's actions with the decline of small college football.  He stated the the history of D3 football in the state has been mediocre as compared to some other states especially given their performance in the playoffs.  That fact is historical and well before Allen's arrival at Indiana.

What is recent fact is the strength of NAIA football in this state, and the growth of the University of Indianapolis in the D2 ranks.  Further, we can name walk-ons that have earned scholarships at the D1 level.  

You have zero proof in the demise of small college Indiana football.....NONE!  What you do have is a voice....and nothing more.

Either name the 20 or 30 cases of demise or simply understand your credibility in this particular case is in question.

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1 hour ago, TrojanDad said:

All I am asking is that you either provide specific examples in which the offering of PWO's have absolutely been the cause of decay in small college football, or simply admit your voice is nothing more than an opinion.

You also put words in JustRules mouth....he did not correlate Allen's actions with the decline of small college football.  He stated the the history of D3 football in the state has been mediocre as compared to some other states especially given their performance in the playoffs.  That fact is historical and well before Allen's arrival at Indiana.

What is recent fact is the strength of NAIA football in this state, and the growth of the University of Indianapolis in the D2 ranks.  Further, we can name walk-ons that have earned scholarships at the D1 level.  

You have zero proof in the demise of small college Indiana football.....NONE!  What you do have is a voice....and nothing more.

Either name the 20 or 30 cases of demise or simply understand your credibility in this particular case is in question.

Is it not fair to assume that as Allen expands his PWO program, there will likely be a smaller pool of potential players at the lower levels?

Does not simple logic peak in this case?

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13 hours ago, southend said:

Nothing personal Oldschool. Just years of observing.  PWO is a detriment.  

According to 247, Indiana has 10 players  who have agreed to accept the PWO opportunity. 1 is a kicker, 1 is a LS. That means 8 are position players.  10 a year is a good number.  Even if they took a few more, it would be good as 2 are special teams and if you use the average % that scholarship classes lose players over 4 years, that number of PWO position players is likely 6 at best.  Coach Allen is smart to offer PWO to players he has seen on film and knows what kind of player they are and extend his connection to more Indiana HS’s.  The other way to reach 125 man full capacity roster is take walkons who just show up Frosh year and you get to see for a day or 2.  
 NAIA programs who can basically offer an unlimited number of players and have grant money to offer that pays for most if not all of their school is a much bigger detriment to the small schools you are bent out of shape about.  

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My two cents: Allen & IU will be fine with their cupcake non-conference schedule in search of a lower tier bowl game.

 

Smaller schools such as Hanover, Marian, and Wabash will also have exciting games on their respective campuses every autumn.

 

San Dimas High School football rules.

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13 hours ago, DT said:

Is it not fair to assume that as Allen expands his PWO program, there will likely be a smaller pool of potential players at the lower levels?

Does not simple logic peak in this case?

Statistically speaking.....no.

First, walkons are hardly anything new at IU, Purdue, Ball State, etc.

8 D3 teams, 1 D2 team, and 3 NAIA schools in the state.  If Allen takes 10 walk-ons, that is less than 1 per team, ASSUMING those kids were all staying in the state of Indiana to play ball at those levels.  (and that is one big assumption)  

One could contend that you eliminate Rose, as they recruit across the country looking for a certain type of student....academic and STEM based.  

2 of the 3 NAIA schools are powerhouses and UIndy and improved their program significantly over the past few years.  

BTW, Purdue also offers walkon opportunities......

 

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36 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Statistically speaking.....no.

First, walkons are hardly anything new at IU, Purdue, Ball State, etc.

8 D3 teams, 1 D2 team, and 3 NAIA schools in the state.  If Allen takes 10 walk-ons, that is less than 1 per team, ASSUMING those kids were all staying in the state of Indiana to play ball at those levels.  (and that is one big assumption)  

One could contend that you eliminate Rose, as they recruit across the country looking for a certain type of student....academic and STEM based.  

2 of the 3 NAIA schools are powerhouses and UIndy and improved their program significantly over the past few years.  

BTW, Purdue also offers walkon opportunities......

 

J. J.  Watt was at one time a walk-on.  As was Clay Matthews, Santana Moss, and Jordy Nelson...

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43 minutes ago, Gipper said:

J. J.  Watt was at one time a walk-on.  As was Clay Matthews, Santana Moss, and Jordy Nelson...

How dare they!   

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6 minutes ago, Robert said:

How dare they!   

My thoughts exactly.  What has Watt ever done?  Nelson made the Packer HOF and is LOVED in Wisconsin, and who the hell is Santana Moss?

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On 2/25/2020 at 9:04 AM, TrojanDad said:

I had to look that one up...pretty interesting.  Nice representation of Big 10 schools to the public ivy's list.  Surprised not to see Purdue and Northwestern.

Northwestern isn't a public school, therefore it cannot be a "public" ivy. 

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Indiana small-college football is doing pretty well even though IU, PU and BSU all receive walk-ons. 

Marian & St. Francis are NAIA national powerhouses and IWU's program is growing, mostly with Indiana kids. 

Wabash is often in the running for the NCAC title & is often in the D3 Top 25. DePauw has been at that level in the past and I anticipate will be there again. 

Franklin has turned itself into a national player at the D3 level under Mike Leonard's tutelage (and I expect that to continue with Alan Hensell, who has hit the ground running this winter at FC). 

UIndy is often in the D2 national tournament. 

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