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Lets End this RPO Madness


Guest DT

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I’d love to hear @Bobref chime in on this one.

Pat Fitzgerald went nuts in a presser a couple of years back when it comes to OL guys being downfield constantly on teams that run RPO schemes and his beef was that it was never called/enforced.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/northwestern-coach-pat-fitzgerald-rpo-communism-quote-video-argument-reaction-college-football/amp

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5 minutes ago, Temptation said:

I’d love to hear @Bobref chime in on this one.

Pat Fitzgerald went nuts in a presser a couple of years back when it comes to OL guys being downfield constantly on teams that run RPO schemes and his beef was that it was never called/enforced.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/northwestern-coach-pat-fitzgerald-rpo-communism-quote-video-argument-reaction-college-football/amp

Always liked Fitzy.

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46 minutes ago, DT said:

Offense, defense and special teams.  Football is not football without all 3.

Many coaches turn over the defense to inexperienced assistants and put all their best athletic talent on the offensive side of the ball.

Kliff Kingsbury

Mike Leach

Hal Mumme

Sonny Dykes

Lincoln Riley

Jeff Brohm

The list is endless

 

 

 

That's not tackle  football.  Thats flag football

 

I think Dwenger is the opposite and pays a price.

 

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I agree with this for the most part! I believe you have to work with talent you have been dealt with. At most 4a-6a programs you have enough talent that you can run different offenses due to just having to fine tune or coach them up.

At most 1a-3a programs the better coaches have to develop talent. Meaning your either like Eastbrook and develop talent from the youth level as Adamson definitely has and gets his kids to believe in his run 1st offense and has quality coaches helping at the lower levels 

Or

You are like the rest of the coaches that struggle year in and year out. This can be due to fear of change, lack of coaching knowledge and or not being fully vested in your kids and being poor at reading your players strengths. These are the coaches that run the RPO at lower levels to hide their deficiencys as a coach and lack of talent. 

The coaches who know how to adjust on the fly when it isn't working are the ones who are successful! 

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22 minutes ago, DT said:

RPO has basically reduced offensive football to a simple read and react decision by the QB.  All of the great , wonderful offensive schemes of the past which demanded perfect execution and maximized the specific physical talents of individual players have been marginalized and forgotten in homage to the great RPO.

I absolutely despise it.  

When you see the same schemes run at every level of football from midget to pro, you've seen homogenous football gone wild.

 

How so? You telling me the variation of the run option (triple, veer, wing t, etc) that teams ran for generations wasn't anything but read and react starting with the QB? Why is RPO different? 

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

How so? You telling me the variation of the run option (triple, veer, wing t, etc) that teams ran for generations wasn't anything but read and react starting with the QB? Why is RPO different

I believe DT explained that in his initial post.  Go back and read it.

 

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It's fun to watch DT on here talking about football "scheme" when he has no clue what he is talking about.

A) "The drive blocking and pass protection skills of big linemen are mitigated in these schemes.  Lots of standing around and then their involvement in the action is very limited." - DT

RPO scheme is a pass option + a real running play.  Usually with a read by the QB of a single defender to give him an answer of what to do with the ball.  Your comment about big lineman standing around is ridiculous and proof you don't know what you are looking at.  The run play can be a gap scheme, zone scheme, counter of some sort, or even a draw.  Either way these are a teams regular run plays and most teams run them the same way whether there is a throw option tagged to it or not.  So if I'm running inside zone with a bubble concept and reading the Apex defender, my OLine better be blocking inside zone and getting off the ball driving their fight like its a run play only.  (I realize I'm probably over your head DT, but this is the most basic RPO teams run).  

 

B) You obviously aren't as in touch with high school football in Indiana as you think.  Yes, as a whole the state may be having more D1 lineman than the past, but that doesn't mean they are everywhere. An RPO is a way to PROTECT your run game whether you have good lineman or not.  If there is the threat of an option of a receiver open in space, you can take a run defender out of the run fit defensively with that threat alone.  Example - defense aggressive backside LB that is stopping the cutback on our bread and butter Inside Zone run.  You could add a hitch in behind that LB with a TE or Slot, QB reads the LB.  If LB flys towards the run, throw the easy hitch where he was.  This protects your run game later.  Or that is the goal anyway.  

 

C) This is traditional option football (not far off from Bart Curtis triple option), just with a different look.  QB puts the ball in the belly of RB and reads a defender.  Based on defender he will have the OPTION to 1) give the ball to the RB  2) keep it and run   3) throw (like a pitch in triple option) to a receiver..... sound familiar?

 

D) Most High School QBs in general can't handle reading a whole defense on the fly.  Why not make it easier on your QB by giving him a simple read and react situation?  Hence why coaches like the RPO - can be easy to teach

 

D) I could go on and on.  I do understand you not liking this particular scheme, that's completely acceptable and logical. Just have a clue what you are talking about before you get on here (wishful thinking...)

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8 minutes ago, Gipper said:

Always liked Fitzy.

 

3 minutes ago, WAF08 said:

It's fun to watch DT on here talking about football "scheme" when he has no clue what he is talking about.

A) "The drive blocking and pass protection skills of big linemen are mitigated in these schemes.  Lots of standing around and then their involvement in the action is very limited." - DT

RPO scheme is a pass option + a real running play.  Usually with a read by the QB of a single defender to give him an answer of what to do with the ball.  Your comment about big lineman standing around is ridiculous and proof you don't know what you are looking at.  The run play can be a gap scheme, zone scheme, counter of some sort, or even a draw.  Either way these are a teams regular run plays and most teams run them the same way whether there is a throw option tagged to it or not.  So if I'm running inside zone with a bubble concept and reading the Apex defender, my OLine better be blocking inside zone and getting off the ball driving their fight like its a run play only.  (I realize I'm probably over your head DT, but this is the most basic RPO teams run).  

 

B) You obviously aren't as in touch with high school football in Indiana as you think.  Yes, as a whole the state may be having more D1 lineman than the past, but that doesn't mean they are everywhere. An RPO is a way to PROTECT your run game whether you have good lineman or not.  If there is the threat of an option of a receiver open in space, you can take a run defender out of the run fit defensively with that threat alone.  Example - defense aggressive backside LB that is stopping the cutback on our bread and butter Inside Zone run.  You could add a hitch in behind that LB with a TE or Slot, QB reads the LB.  If LB flys towards the run, throw the easy hitch where he was.  This protects your run game later.  Or that is the goal anyway.  

 

C) This is traditional option football (not far off from Bart Curtis triple option), just with a different look.  QB puts the ball in the belly of RB and reads a defender.  Based on defender he will have the OPTION to 1) give the ball to the RB  2) keep it and run   3) throw (like a pitch in triple option) to a receiver..... sound familiar?

 

D) Most High School QBs in general can't handle reading a whole defense on the fly.  Why not make it easier on your QB by giving him a simple read and react situation?  Hence why coaches like the RPO - can be easy to teach

 

D) I could go on and on.  I do understand you not liking this particular scheme, that's completely acceptable and logical. Just have a clue what you are talking about before you get on here (wishful thinking...)

HOF

 

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19 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I believe DT explained that in his initial post.  Go back and read it.

 

It’s more fun to debunk the bejesus out of him...

 

you, too—but I don’t play chess with pigeons.

Edited by Gipper
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4 minutes ago, WAF08 said:

It's fun to watch DT on here talking about football "scheme" when he has no clue what he is talking about.

A) "The drive blocking and pass protection skills of big linemen are mitigated in these schemes.  Lots of standing around and then their involvement in the action is very limited." - DT

RPO scheme is a pass option + a real running play.  Usually with a read by the QB of a single defender to give him an answer of what to do with the ball.  Your comment about big lineman standing around is ridiculous and proof you don't know what you are looking at.  The run play can be a gap scheme, zone scheme, counter of some sort, or even a draw.  Either way these are a teams regular run plays and most teams run them the same way whether there is a throw option tagged to it or not.  So if I'm running inside zone with a bubble concept and reading the Apex defender, my OLine better be blocking inside zone and getting off the ball driving their fight like its a run play only.  (I realize I'm probably over your head DT, but this is the most basic RPO teams run).  

 

B) You obviously aren't as in touch with high school football in Indiana as you think.  Yes, as a whole the state may be having more D1 lineman than the past, but that doesn't mean they are everywhere. An RPO is a way to PROTECT your run game whether you have good lineman or not.  If there is the threat of an option of a receiver open in space, you can take a run defender out of the run fit defensively with that threat alone.  Example - defense aggressive backside LB that is stopping the cutback on our bread and butter Inside Zone run.  You could add a hitch in behind that LB with a TE or Slot, QB reads the LB.  If LB flys towards the run, throw the easy hitch where he was.  This protects your run game later.  Or that is the goal anyway.  

 

C) This is traditional option football (not far off from Bart Curtis triple option), just with a different look.  QB puts the ball in the belly of RB and reads a defender.  Based on defender he will have the OPTION to 1) give the ball to the RB  2) keep it and run   3) throw (like a pitch in triple option) to a receiver..... sound familiar?

 

D) Most High School QBs in general can't handle reading a whole defense on the fly.  Why not make it easier on your QB by giving him a simple read and react situation?  Hence why coaches like the RPO - can be easy to teach

 

D) I could go on and on.  I do understand you not liking this particular scheme, that's completely acceptable and logical. Just have a clue what you are talking about before you get on here (wishful thinking...)

Love the coachspeak.  Really, I do.  You guys do a great job with these kids and your efforts should be commended.

I simply don't like how RPO has changed the game.  When you combine the best of RPO and extreme dereliction of duty on the defensive side of the ball, you have football that has become unwatchable for many of us from a different era.

Over the past decade, several positions on the field have become obsolete.  Fullback.  TE.  LB    Now the era of th mammoth offensive lineman appears to be coming to an end.  Scouts want tall, long and lean.  The 6-5, 320 lb tackle is being replaced by the 6-7, 295 lb tackle.  This is the new trend.  

Some like it it.  Some dont.  

 

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4 minutes ago, DT said:

Love the coachspeak.  Really, I do.  You guys do a great job with these kids and your efforts should be commended.

I simply don't like how RPO has changed the game.  When you combine the best of RPO and extreme dereliction of duty on the defensive side of the ball, you have football that has become unwatchable for many of us from a different era.

Over the past decade, several positions on the field have become obsolete.  Fullback.  TE.  LB    Now the era of th mammoth offensive lineman appears to be coming to an end.  Scouts want tall, long and lean.  The 6-5, 320 lb tackle is being replaced by the 6-7, 295 lb tackle.  This is the new trend.  

Some like it it.  Some dont.  

 

Huh?

The TE position has been revolutionized the last 10 years. What are you talking about.

You ever think the lean, 6-7, 295 pound is needed to combat the 250 lb DE coming off the edge that can run a 4.5? The size and speed of football players has dramatically increased over the last 30-40 years.

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25 minutes ago, WAF08 said:

It's fun to watch DT on here talking about football "scheme" when he has no clue what he is talking about.

A) "The drive blocking and pass protection skills of big linemen are mitigated in these schemes.  Lots of standing around and then their involvement in the action is very limited." - DT

RPO scheme is a pass option + a real running play.  Usually with a read by the QB of a single defender to give him an answer of what to do with the ball.  Your comment about big lineman standing around is ridiculous and proof you don't know what you are looking at.  The run play can be a gap scheme, zone scheme, counter of some sort, or even a draw.  Either way these are a teams regular run plays and most teams run them the same way whether there is a throw option tagged to it or not.  So if I'm running inside zone with a bubble concept and reading the Apex defender, my OLine better be blocking inside zone and getting off the ball driving their fight like its a run play only.  (I realize I'm probably over your head DT, but this is the most basic RPO teams run).  

 

B) You obviously aren't as in touch with high school football in Indiana as you think.  Yes, as a whole the state may be having more D1 lineman than the past, but that doesn't mean they are everywhere. An RPO is a way to PROTECT your run game whether you have good lineman or not.  If there is the threat of an option of a receiver open in space, you can take a run defender out of the run fit defensively with that threat alone.  Example - defense aggressive backside LB that is stopping the cutback on our bread and butter Inside Zone run.  You could add a hitch in behind that LB with a TE or Slot, QB reads the LB.  If LB flys towards the run, throw the easy hitch where he was.  This protects your run game later.  Or that is the goal anyway.  

 

C) This is traditional option football (not far off from Bart Curtis triple option), just with a different look.  QB puts the ball in the belly of RB and reads a defender.  Based on defender he will have the OPTION to 1) give the ball to the RB  2) keep it and run   3) throw (like a pitch in triple option) to a receiver..... sound familiar?

 

D) Most High School QBs in general can't handle reading a whole defense on the fly.  Why not make it easier on your QB by giving him a simple read and react situation?  Hence why coaches like the RPO - can be easy to teach

 

D) I could go on and on.  I do understand you not liking this particular scheme, that's completely acceptable and logical. Just have a clue what you are talking about before you get on here (wishful thinking...)

62B4C946-A8B8-4380-9BB2-C8FA71057251.thumb.jpeg.dd889f7ed857a539e2a04923aee5201c.jpeg

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My cat, Killer, says good morning...

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6 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Frankly I question whether you know how to play chess at all.

They prefer checkers in Newton County

 

 

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But with that, I grew up in Newton county, attended South Newton where I scored on 1460 on my SAT (33 on ACT) so my intelligence should not be questioned.  Although my growing up was very good, I have lived in locales such as New York, Boston, and Atlanta.  Much like Robert, I consider myself a citizen of the world.  Checkers are, I grant you, but I prefer others games of strategy...

10 minutes ago, DT said:

They prefer checkers in Newton County

 

 

Have you ever been?

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51 minutes ago, Temptation said:

I’d love to hear @Bobref chime in on this one.

Pat Fitzgerald went nuts in a presser a couple of years back when it comes to OL guys being downfield constantly on teams that run RPO schemes and his beef was that it was never called/enforced.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/northwestern-coach-pat-fitzgerald-rpo-communism-quote-video-argument-reaction-college-football/amp

Not sure about the communism part of the comment, but he's right that allowing up to 3 yards for lineman to be legal does make it more difficult for defenses. The reason is the defense (and officials) read run/pass based on what the linemen do. If they drive block it's generally a run read. If their first step is back it's generally a pass read. The defenders will then cover the play accordingly. With RPO, the linemen will block initially as if it's a run and the defenders will adjust their coverage/movement as if it's a run play. RPO is designed to take advantage of that. NFL allows no downfield (or maybe 1 yard) so it's a different situation there. The QB is still reading a defender to determine which option he'll use, but the linemen are much more limited in what they can do. I've never thought of RPO as high scoring. That's more of the spread, hurry up offenses. Some may run RPO but they aren't the same thing.

From an officiating standpoint, I'll make two points. First, this is very difficult to officiate because someone has to be able to watch two different things (the location of the lineman and the status of the ball) at the same time and they usually don't occur near each other. If one official knows where the linemen are and another one knows the pass was thrown, that information can't be combined to determine if a foul occurred. There are techniques that can help the umpire and/or wing officials try to cover both, but it takes a lot of practice and could happen at the expense of missing something else (i.e. holding).

Second, it's not missed as often as people think. They see the receiver catching a pass 6 yards downfield with a lineman next to him or beyond him and think, "how could they miss that." It's important to understand the rule. It's a foul based on the location of the lineman at the time the pass is RELEASED. Earlier in my career I would make the incorrect assumption this lineman I see downfield has to be illegal. Then I would watch the video to confirm my call and realize the lineman was only a yard to two downfield when the pass was released! I've changed my approach to only call it if I know the lineman was downfield too far before the pass was thrown (HS is 2 yards, NCAA is 3 yards). Based on video review I've almost always been correct, but it has taken many years of practice.

Officials at the B1G level are pretty good at it so it's not wrong nearly as often as Fitz thinks it is. At the HS level with varying levels of skills of officials it's probably much more inconsistent.

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DT,  you have every right to dislike the RPOs in the game now.  Certainly a lot of teams use them because they are trendy and provide flexibility.  But many use them to put defenders in conflict in order to get their best people the ball.  What I was mostly getting at was that I think you are broadly talking about football in terms that may be too general for your point to be accurate, if that makes sense.  For example, talking about positions changing and linemen changing role, etc.  NFL and College are in reality quite different from the majority of high school football.  As was mentioned, TE is still a huge position in all levels of football.  Some teams use them more as an H Back, but that position has not left the game.  The traditional I formation FB has definitely become less prevalent for sure.  But I see what you mean, the game is different.  Teams using RPOs in their system are simply trying to use the entire field and put certain defensive players in conflict, because that is as good as a block.  When I was HC at my previous school, we ran spread with lots of RPOs and RROs.  We had 3 run plays and tags on them to react to the defense.  We had to do it, our OL wasn't dominating and we played in a great conference.  We had some success there with that.  At my current 1a school, we went to the wing to control the ball more but still use some RPOs to protect our main runs when we are in gun about 30% of the time. 

Just Rules -->  Awesome insight there.  From a coaching perspective, we are telling QBs that read is made and ball is out pretty quickly.  If you hold the ball at all or double clutch after deciding on the throw option, its too late!  I remember about 6 years ago we ran outside zone to the right with a slant on the backside.  QB pulled the ball to throw, double clutched, then hit the WR in stride for an 80 yard TD.....everyone is cheering while I'm already coaching the QB to correct his mistake because I knew we'd have that called back for lineman down field before the ball even got to the goal line lol.  It comes with the territory.

 

....sorry for the long football posts....stir crazy sitting at home haha

Edited by WAF08
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13 minutes ago, WAF08 said:

DT,  you have every right to dislike the RPOs in the game now.  Certainly a lot of teams use them because they are trendy and provide flexibility.  But many use them to put defenders in conflict in order to get their best people the ball.  What I was mostly getting at was that I think you are broadly talking about football in terms that may be too general for your point to be accurate, if that makes sense.  For example, talking about positions changing and linemen changing role, etc.  NFL and College are in reality quite different from the majority of high school football.  As was mentioned, TE is still a huge position in all levels of football.  Some teams use them more as an H Back, but that position has not left the game.  The traditional I formation FB has definitely become less prevalent for sure.  But I see what you mean, the game is different.  Teams using RPOs in their system are simply trying to use the entire field and put certain defensive players in conflict, because that is as good as a block.  When I was HC at my previous school, we ran spread with lots of RPOs and RROs.  We had 3 run plays and tags on them to react to the defense.  We had to do it, our OL wasn't dominating and we played in a great conference.  We had some success there with that.  At my current 1a school, we went to the wing to control the ball more but still use some RPOs to protect our main runs when we are in gun about 30% of the time. 

Just Rules -->  Awesome insight there.  From a coaching perspective, we are telling QBs that read is made and ball is out pretty quickly.  If you hold the ball at all or double clutch after deciding on the throw option, its too late!  I remember about 6 years ago we ran outside zone to the right with a slant on the backside.  QB pulled the ball to throw, double clutched, then hit the WR in stride for an 80 yard TD.....everyone is cheering while I'm already coaching the QB to correct his mistake because I knew we'd have that called back for lineman down field before the ball even got to the goal line lol.  It comes with the territory.

 

....sorry for the long football posts....stir crazy sitting at home haha

We all are, but golf courses are open!!!  DT has a great football mind, he just needs to be open to other viewpoints.   We all do—if I can change, and you can change...we all can change!!!

Edited by Gipper
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