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Temptation

State Finals Format Changing

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On 6/27/2020 at 6:12 PM, Bobref said:

I like it, too. It makes a lot of sense. One thing they’re going to do is shuffle the schedule to attempt to maximize attendance. For example if 2 Ft. Wayne teams make it to the finals in different classes, they will schedule those games back to back to draw as many Ft. Wayne fans as possible. 

For this alone, I LOVE the plan to change the format. This will be my 13th season up here, and I do know this; the schools in the FW area will support the teams that are in different classes once the playoffs come around. 

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3 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

It’s possible. But what you might gain from a visitor with less travel might be offset with smaller home crowd. I have had family members shy away from a road game just for fear that the visitor side would not be large enough and they would have to stand. Making sure regionals and semi states have adequate seating might help. Tough to tell.
 

If we wanted to crunch numbers, are regional and SS attendance figures available anywhere? 

Does the IHSAA rent Lucas Oil or get it for free? I would hate to see the finals moved away for a cost cutting measure. Soccer can play at a HS field, volleyball can play in Muncie, fine. But the football tournament should end at LOS.

And I think 2008 should be excluded from attendance discussions. First year in a brand new stadium (many Colts fans had never been inside prior to thanksgiving 2008) there was a novelty effect.

They played in the Hoosier Dome before Lucas oil. 1984

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48 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

DST isn't the issue...the issue is the SW and NW corners of the state being on CST.  I think it is nuts that any of Indiana is on EST...just my opinion.  

Michigan and Kentucky are EST. If you enjoy sunset at 4pm in December switch us. Just saying. 

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Let'sbe honest. 2,4,6 and 1,3,5 made perfect sense. So let's mix it up to get more people in the stands? No matter how you make it the numbers will be the same. Like Daylight saving time. You can move it all you want, still 24 hours. Changing things to just change is just dumb. The number of people from a 1A or 2A will be the same no matter what day they play on.... you want people in the stands, no video broadcasts, lower ticket prices and give out free Hot dogs.

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10 minutes ago, Mebuck said:

Michigan and Kentucky are EST. If you enjoy sunset at 4pm in December switch us. Just saying. 

CST is much better.  KY is only EST from about Louisville east which makes sense geographically (Owensboro, Madisonville, Bowling Green and Paducah are CST).  We have CST here in in SW Indiana and on the shortest day of the year (December 21) sunset was 4:35.  It's worth it to have Monday night football start at 8:00 and over at 11:00.  And the 10:00 news is actually at 10:00.  Far superior time than EST.

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1 hour ago, Mebuck said:

They played in the Hoosier Dome before Lucas oil. 1984

I'm well aware of that.  But fans want to see a new stadium.  If the same teams played in 2007 (in RCA/Hoosier Dome) or 2009, attendance would have been lower because people wanted to see Lucas Oil just as much as the game. 

The Atlanta Braves attendance rose 24%, the Cincinnati Reds  about 30%, and the Marlins increased attendance  almost 50%! when they moved into new stadiums.  And trust me, it wasn't because the teams on the field.  (Most NFL games are already sellouts, so a new stadium doesn't show much effect.  Baseball, where there is excess capacity is more representative in this case.)

And @Bobref - I assumed you meant neutral site games but you didn't say it.  I guess that's what I get for assuming.  It's possible neutral sites could boost attendance, but it might just be shifting less home fans for more visitor fans.  It could be a net positive, but you couldn't know until you tried it.   

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It could still be tricky to line everyone up, but I like the idea. I think you will still see Carmel-CG in the last game of any day if they played. It may not result in more tickets sold, but if I'm an Eastbrook (2A) fan and my team is in the finals and Marion (5A) is also playing, I may want to watch both games if they are back to back. If they are playing on separate days or with a game in between, I'm less likely to watch both.

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10 hours ago, Titan32 said:

DST isn't the issue...the issue is the SW and NW corners of the state being on CST.  I think it is nuts that any of Indiana is on EST...just my opinion.  

The only state in the union who’s time is dictated by metro areas in other states.

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1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

The only state in the union who’s time is dictated by metro areas in other states.

And rightly so.  

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3 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

The only state in the union who’s time is dictated by metro areas in other states.

Also the only state in the union who refused to change times for decades to keep the cow milking on the same schedule.

Indiana is a central time zone state pretending to be an eastern one.

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8 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Also the only state in the union who refused to change times for decades to keep the cow milking on the same schedule.

Indiana is a central time zone state pretending to be an eastern one.

In a nutshell.

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22 hours ago, Titan32 said:

DST isn't the issue...the issue is the SW and NW corners of the state being on CST.  I think it is nuts that any of Indiana is on EST...just my opinion.  

I can understand why NW Indiana is on CST. It's basically a burb of Chicago. It only makes sense to be on the same time zone. 

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22 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

And @Bobref - I assumed you meant neutral site games but you didn't say it.  I guess that's what I get for assuming.  It's possible neutral sites could boost attendance, but it might just be shifting less home fans for more visitor fans.  It could be a net positive, but you couldn't know until you tried it.   

It seems like there’s some out-of-the-box thinking going on at 9150, and I applaud it. If they’re ever going to try neutral sites, this is the perfect opportunity. If it turns out that it’s a push, as you suggested, no harm done.

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1 hour ago, gonzoron said:

No, it doesn't.

Time zones are, or at least should, be based on Meridians of Longitude.  You begin in London, head west 15 degrees for your first time zone (GMT—Greenwich Mean Time). Keep going by 15 degrees and you would see that Indiana and the Eastern half of Illinois, Wisconsin, and Yooperland (Upper Peninsula of Michigan) would all be in the same time zone.

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On 6/28/2020 at 8:15 PM, Titan32 said:

DST isn't the issue...the issue is the SW and NW corners of the state being on CST.  I think it is nuts that any of Indiana is on EST...just my opinion.  

I've wondered this myself, as well.  Haven't lived in Indiana since 2006, but when we were there they were on EST and DST.  I didn't think it made a whole lot of sense, especially that double whammy during the summer.  I'm not going to be mowing my yard at 9:00 p.m., and unless I was snowmobiling I wasn't planning on doing much of anything outside after 4:00-5:00 p.m. in December/January.  Just seemed like we were too far east to be on both EST and DST, or even EST by itself.  But I realize that's just me and everyone's schedules are different.

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On 6/27/2020 at 10:06 PM, oldtimeqb said:

Don’t take this as a complaint- the inconveniences of the situation are well worth the chance to play for a state title. Every Hs football player would be willing to trade a lot for a blue ring.

Specifics? Mainly travel but here are some examples. 

Time change.  Had Andrean won SS last year, they would have played an 11 AM Central kickoff. Rensselaer/ Mater Dei back in 2014 featured two teams from the central time zone. Do you spend the night before in a hotel or leave really early to drive the 2-2:30 hours? 

Media day. Monday the coach and team captains travel to get pictures and meet with IHSAA brass. A minor inconvenience for Chatard, Carmel, and Center Grove. But this was most likely a 5+ Hr round trip in a car for Memorial, East Noble, and Heritage Hills. They probably don’t make it back for the start of practice as well.

Practice. If they want, those teams can choose to take another 5+ hr round trip - but this time in a bus for a practice at Lucas Oil. New Pal, WeBo can take their hour practice at LOS, head back to school and finish normal practice. An Evansville school has to give up pretty much a whole Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday (Thanksgiving) if they want to practice at Lucas.

Hotel issues- Black Friday and the tree lighting take place downtown Friday in Indy. If you don’t want an early drive (or like to tailgate!) parents, fans, coaches’ families, plus alumni who have informal reunions all are trying to coordinate where they are staying. I concede this is a self-imposed issue, but it still is a distraction that Indy area teams don’t deal with. 
 

I don’t think it changes the outcome - but just take a look at Heritage Hills schedule for regional and semi state, and then throw another two trips to Indianapolis prior to kickoff on Friday. 

Not OT since my question is regarding playoffs, but just came to mind so here goes.

Does Indiana use neutral sites for the playoff's?  I'm guessing they don't.  We do down here and I think it's a great idea.  Reduced travel time by ~1/2 (this is the biggest benefit IMO), you can usually can find a decent stadium with enough seating, smaller schools get to play a few games in a "big" stadium environment.  Both coaches have to agree on the site, obviously,  I don't see a down side.

Apologies for the digression.

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On 6/28/2020 at 9:13 PM, Mebuck said:

Let'sbe honest. 2,4,6 and 1,3,5 made perfect sense. So let's mix it up to get more people in the stands? No matter how you make it the numbers will be the same. Like Daylight saving time. You can move it all you want, still 24 hours. Changing things to just change is just dumb. The number of people from a 1A or 2A will be the same no matter what day they play on.... you want people in the stands, no video broadcasts, lower ticket prices and give out free Hot dogs.

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26 minutes ago, Bonecrusher said:

Not OT since my question is regarding playoffs, but just came to mind so here goes.

Does Indiana use neutral sites for the playoff's?  I'm guessing they don't.  We do down here and I think it's a great idea.  Reduced travel time by ~1/2 (this is the biggest benefit IMO), you can usually can find a decent stadium with enough seating, smaller schools get to play a few games in a "big" stadium environment.  Both coaches have to agree on the site, obviously,  I don't see a down side.

Apologies for the digression.

It’s actually more on-topic than time zones. Lol

It sounds like the coaches pick the site the week of (or weekend before) the neutral site game? The issue (problem?) with Indiana is that as soon as football is over, ADs and schools are eager to move on to basketball. Heck, look at Triton Central who forced MD to kick off the regional football game at noon because they had a girls basketball game that night. I think finding a ‘host’ would be the biggest issue.

To do it, you would have to allow schools to bid/offer to host like what happens with basketball and volleyball. So while equal distance may not be perfect, at least fans would know if we win, we will play at XX high school. 

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Terrific that the IHSAA did this.  Here's to hoping that they move on to the 21st century.  The old pizza shop on the corner is still cash only.  🙂  Come on River Bend Pizza!  🙂 

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1 hour ago, oldtimeqb said:

It sounds like the coaches pick the site the week of (or weekend before) the neutral site game? The issue (problem?) with Indiana is that as soon as football is over, ADs and schools are eager to move on to basketball. Heck, look at Triton Central who forced MD to kick off the regional football game at noon because they had a girls basketball game that night. I think finding a ‘host’ would be the biggest issue.

To do it, you would have to allow schools to bid/offer to host like what happens with basketball and volleyball. So while equal distance may not be perfect, at least fans would know if we win, we will play at XX high school. 

Exactly. You’re not going to find 24 neutral site schools to offer hosting the regional. Coordinating a Friday night home game is already a pain in the neck for most athletic directors. Doubtful that schools would line up to host a regional or semi-state for less money. You probably need at least 20 support staff to host such game. Even less incentive for your normal regular season workers to come back for a game where your school is not playing and they would likely be paid less money from the state. 

Hosting a basketball sectional/regional/semi-state is much more doable — and there is a historical source of pride in your gym hosting the state tournament. No such feeling for football. 

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28 minutes ago, region said:

Exactly. You’re not going to find 24 neutral site schools to offer hosting the regional. Coordinating a Friday night home game is already a pain in the neck for most athletic directors. Doubtful that schools would line up to host a regional or semi-state for less money. You probably need at least 20 support staff to host such game. Even less incentive for your normal regular season workers to come back for a game where your school is not playing and they would likely be paid less money from the state. 

Hosting a basketball sectional/regional/semi-state is much more doable — and there is a historical source of pride in your gym hosting the state tournament. No such feeling for football. 

Doubleheaders?  Saturdays?

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1 hour ago, region said:

Exactly. You’re not going to find 24 neutral site schools to offer hosting the regional. Coordinating a Friday night home game is already a pain in the neck for most athletic directors. Doubtful that schools would line up to host a regional or semi-state for less money. You probably need at least 20 support staff to host such game. Even less incentive for your normal regular season workers to come back for a game where your school is not playing and they would likely be paid less money from the state. 

Hosting a basketball sectional/regional/semi-state is much more doable — and there is a historical source of pride in your gym hosting the state tournament. No such feeling for football. 

State pays a stipend to everyone working the game regardless. Even the chain gang get a chunk! Concessions would get a boost. It can be predetermined before the tournament just like every other sport.

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Neutral sites seems to work very well in Ohio.  Only their 1st round games (Region quarterfinal) are hosted by top seeds  Why would it not work in Indiana? Apathy by schools is the argument I'm reading above.

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