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IHSAA 8 Man Football Proposal


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4 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

Or, that these States had schools that put more emphasis on basketball than football.

You clearly dont understand Ohio high school football.  

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8 hours ago, DT said:

You clearly dont understand Ohio high school football.  

I would say this is a fair point.  Ohio is a state known for it's high school football.  Let's look back at the chart @gahoosierfan posted and focus on some other states that are known for their football.  

How many 8 man teams does...

California have?

108

Florida have?

15

Georgia have?

21

Michigan have?

64

Mississippi have?

21

Nebraska have?

113

Texas have?

0

Now let's remember what @DT said early on in this conversation:

On 7/8/2020 at 6:02 PM, DT said:

Terrible idea   

Eight man football is for rugged rural outpost communities and for the generally unsophisticated sports fan.

Modern, sophisticated and educated Hoosiers will not support this neanderthal version of the regular game.

117 Indiana High Schools, or 25% of the total in the state, have already said NO to high school football.  We need to cull the 40 bottom feeders in 11 man and fine tune and elevate the remaining 280 go forward schools to catch up with our neighboring states who are playing at a higher overall level and produce significantly more next level talent.

So yes, several of those states that are "known for football" have a large rural population, yet 8-man is allowed to exist, and in some cases thrive.  But, you know, these are states who have "generally unsophisticated sports fan(s)."

But wait, you say, Texas has zero 8-man teams and they are the gold standard for rabidness over high school football.  You would be correct.  They have an alternative though....

Let's look at how many 6-man teams those same states have...

California

0

Florida

32

Georgia

0

Michigan

0

Mississippi

0

Nebraska

25

Texas

234

If 8-man is a "neanderthal version of the regular game," I would hate to know what the 6-man version would be.  Yet the 6-man game is incredibly prominent in football rabid Texas.  But sure, alternatives to the 11 man game like 8 and 6 man football are for us "neanderthals."  Why don't you leave this possibility to those of us who are not "modern, sophisticated and educated Hoosiers" and pay attention to more pressing issues for you more intellectual types.

 

P.S.: As a Wabash College graduate, I take offense to the term "neanderthal."  If you must insult my intelligence, please use the term "caveman."

Edited by wabashalwaysfights
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On 7/6/2020 at 10:41 PM, Gipper said:

Numbers have never been a good thing in most cases.  A lot of the freshmen and JV teams dress on Friday nights.  

 

But there are "4A" programs around the state where this is also a common occurrence. Enrollment seldom tells the whole story, hence the need to scrap the enrollment based classification system and go to one of strict promotion/relegation.

 

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On 7/9/2020 at 8:14 AM, DT said:

 If you take football away from one kid, you create an opportunity to give a new opportunity to another thru the reallocation of resources.  I dont know why that is such a bad thing.

 

*cough* soccer *cough*

The bane of small school football programs almost everywhere.

Which is why in the aforementioned list I don't see a small school like Rossville ever having football, 8-man or otherwise.  Their existing soccer program is enough for that community, a place where basketball and to a lesser extent, baseball, is king and always will be.

 

On 7/9/2020 at 8:53 AM, wabashalwaysfights said:

Incorrect.  At most small schools that currently have a football team their athletic department's budget relies on that income to support multiple other programs.  You take that income away, you force the department to make deeper cuts across the board.  I too share the idea that football is not a "holy grail," if a kid doesn't want to play, a kid shouldn't play.  But where there is enough interest, whether it is for 11 or 8 man, a school and community should be allowed to offer it as an option, regardless of the quality of the "product" on the field.  You are, in fact, for taking opportunities away from kids, but you will never admit it.  Moving on...

I watched some 8 man stuff on YouTube, it looked pretty cool.  I'd still like to hear some of the coaching side of things.

An Attica-Seeger co-op 11-man football team would be a mighty beast.  Just saying..........................

 

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1 hour ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

I would say this is a fair point.  Ohio is a state known for it's high school football.  Let's look back at the chart @gahoosierfan posted and focus on some other states that are known for their football.  

How many 8 man teams does...

California have?

108

Florida have?

15

Georgia have?

21

Michigan have?

64

Mississippi have?

21

Nebraska have?

113

Texas have?

0

Now let's remember what @DT said early on in this conversation:

So yes, several of those states that are "known for football" have a large rural population, yet 8-man is allowed to exist, and in some cases thrive.  But, you know, these are states who have "generally unsophisticated sports fan(s)."

But wait, you say, Texas has zero 8-man teams and they are the gold standard for rabidness over high school football.  You would be correct.  They have an alternative though....

Let's look at how many 6-man teams those same states have...

California

0

Florida

32

Georgia

0

Michigan

0

Mississippi

0

Nebraska

25

Texas

234

If 8-man is a "neanderthal version of the regular game," I would hate to know what the 6-man version would be.  Yet the 6-man game is incredibly prominent in football rabid Texas.  But sure, alternatives to the 11 man game like 8 and 6 man football are for us "neanderthals."  Why don't you leave this possibility to those of us who are not "modern, sophisticated and educated Hoosiers" and pay attention to more pressing issues for you more intellectual types.

 

P.S.: As a Wabash College graduate, I take offense to the term "neanderthal."  If you must insult my intelligence, please use the term "caveman."

I know a few Wabash grads, including Mike Crnkovich, younger brother of my high school QB Tim Crnkovich.

Geography plays a huge roll in 6/8/9 man football as well.  Indiana , KY and OH are similar in terms that they each have major cities scattered throughout the state, mitigating the travel issues that rural or mega size states must deal with.  

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I truly find it hard to believe that some of the gate receipts for these failing 11 man football programs generate nearly enough income to support a full sports menu 

Failing programs suffer from two common factors, amongst many others :

 

Low participation

Low community support

 

That translates to moribund attendance numbers.  

I wont be convinced otherwise

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3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

*cough* soccer *cough*

The bane of small school football programs almost everywhere.

Which is why in the aforementioned list I don't see a small school like Rossville ever having football, 8-man or otherwise.  Their existing soccer program is enough for that community, a place where basketball and to a lesser extent, baseball, is king and always will be.

 

An Attica-Seeger co-op 11-man football team would be a mighty beast.  Just saying..........................

 

Hey, if a school shows enough long term interest to support a soccer program and a community is willing to support it, I say go for it.  That doesn't mean it doesn't have consequences though.  Covington is a great example of this.  They were never really a "football juggernaut" before they started their soccer program, but their football participation took a big hit when that started (I was a kid btw, so the details are a bit fuzzy).  Things have balanced out now, Covington's football teams have steadily gotten better and their participation has also gone up, I don't know what their soccer participation is, but I continually hear that they are competitive.  The key there is that, I assume, the Covington community did their research, saw that there was long term interest in soccer, and decided that it was worth it.  Good for them, but it's not for everybody.

As to co-ops, that to me is also an option, but there are some thorny issues to work through there as well.  How does the revenue get split?  How do you get student-athletes to facilities? Which facilities do you use?  That doesn't even start to touch the "cultural" (if that is the right term) issues inherent with joining up two fierce rivals.  It is a different situation, slightly, but one of the big hangups with the Turkey Run/Rockville consolidation was that there were folks on both sides, young and old, who could not stand the thought of playing with the other side instead of against them. Not that these obstacles can't be overcome, but it just takes some doing.

1 minute ago, DT said:

I know a few Wabash grads, including Mike Crnkovich, younger brother of my high school QB Tim Crnkovich.

Geography plays a huge roll in 6/8/9 man football as well.  Indiana , KY and OH are similar in terms that they each have major cities scattered throughout the state, mitigating the travel issues that rural or mega size states must deal with.  

And geographically speaking, Indiana is very similar to Illinois and Michigan in the same regard.  See the above numbers. 

18 minutes ago, DT said:

I truly find it hard to believe that some of the gate receipts for these failing 11 man football programs generate nearly enough income to support a full sports menu 

Failing programs suffer from two common factors, amongst many others :

 

Low participation

Low community support

 

That translates to moribund attendance numbers.  

I wont be convinced otherwise

Fine, great, I support your right to have an opinion.  Having seen gate numbers at small schools for years I can tell you that you are wrong, but you will never believe me, but as the text in bold indicates, it doesn't matter.  Multiple athletic directors from multiple schools around the state could show you their books, you could see the numbers in black and white, and it won't matter.  So again, I would respectfully ask that you start a new thread to discuss contraction issues and let this thread be for discussion about the mechanics of 8-man football, it's prevalence and structure in other states, and schools in this state who may potentially either show interest or be willing to engage in conversation around it.  We all know where you stand, that is clear, so please, just leave those of us who would like to have some kind of productive discussion on this topic in peace...

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5 minutes ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

Hey, if a school shows enough long term interest to support a soccer program and a community is willing to support it, I say go for it.  That doesn't mean it doesn't have consequences though.  Covington is a great example of this.  They were never really a "football juggernaut" before they started their soccer program, but their football participation took a big hit when that started (I was a kid btw, so the details are a bit fuzzy).  Things have balanced out now, Covington's football teams have steadily gotten better and their participation has also gone up, I don't know what their soccer participation is, but I continually hear that they are competitive.  The key there is that, I assume, the Covington community did their research, saw that there was long term interest in soccer, and decided that it was worth it.  Good for them, but it's not for everybody.

As to co-ops, that to me is also an option, but there are some thorny issues to work through there as well.  How does the revenue get split?  How do you get student-athletes to facilities? Which facilities do you use?  That doesn't even start to touch the "cultural" (if that is the right term) issues inherent with joining up two fierce rivals.  It is a different situation, slightly, but one of the big hangups with the Turkey Run/Rockville consolidation was that there were folks on both sides, young and old, who could not stand the thought of playing with the other side instead of against them. Not that these obstacles can't be overcome, but it just takes some doing.

And geographically speaking, Indiana is very similar to Illinois and Michigan in the same regard.  See the above numbers. 

Fine, great, I support your right to have an opinion.  Having seen gate numbers at small schools for years I can tell you that you are wrong, but you will never believe me, but as the text in bold indicates, it doesn't matter.  Multiple athletic directors from multiple schools around the state could show you their books, you could see the numbers in black and white, and it won't matter.  So again, I would respectfully ask that you start a new thread to discuss contraction issues and let this thread be for discussion about the mechanics of 8-man football, it's prevalence and structure in other states, and schools in this state who may potentially either show interest or be willing to engage in conversation around it.  We all know where you stand, that is clear, so please, just leave those of us who would like to have some kind of productive discussion on this topic in peace...

Understood.  Enjoy your conversation.

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@DanteEstonia, you said you coached an 8-man team last year, I'm curious about x's and o's, what is the same what is different?

@cw13, you said you have coached in a co-op program before, how does that work in terms of facility usage, revenue sharing between the two schools, etc.  I've lived near the Illinois state line my whole life and am familiar with the basics of co-op programs, but don't know much beyond, essentially, two or more schools field a team together...

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30 minutes ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

@DanteEstonia, you said you coached an 8-man team last year, I'm curious about x's and o's, what is the same what is different?

@cw13, you said you have coached in a co-op program before, how does that work in terms of facility usage, revenue sharing between the two schools, etc.  I've lived near the Illinois state line my whole life and am familiar with the basics of co-op programs, but don't know much beyond, essentially, two or more schools field a team together...

Narrower field, for one thing. 80 yard fields and 100 yard fields are both in use in Nevada, but 100 yard fields have an “inner line” for 8 man boundaries. That cost me a touchdown once 😖

Here’s an example: Tonopah has an 80 yard field; Laughlin and Beatty have 100 yard fields. Tonopah lacks the added markings; Beatty and Laughlin have them.

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Don't the "big uglies" of a school,  aka the offensive and defensive lineman, get short shrift in a 8-man system? Are not 2 out of the 3 positions eliminated in 8-man football those "non-skill" positions?

I guess those players can just go play soccer or run cross country?

 

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17 minutes ago, DanteEstonia said:

Narrower field, for one thing. 80 yard fields and 100 yard fields are both in use in Nevada, but 100 yard fields have an “inner line” for 8 man boundaries. That cost me a touchdown once 😖

Here’s an example: Tonopah has an 80 yard field; Laughlin and Beatty have 100 yard fields. Tonopah lacks the added markings; Beatty and Laughlin have them.

That sounds frustrating to say the least.  What about scheme then?  I assume there is a "spread" versus a "power" different offensively?  I looked up some highlights from the Michigan state championships and it looked like each school differed quite a bit.

12 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Don't the "big uglies" of a school,  aka the offensive and defensive lineman, get short shrift in a 8-man system? Are not 2 out of the 3 positions eliminated in 8-man football those "non-skill" positions?

I guess those players can just go play soccer or run cross country?

 

Like I said in my first post, as a former offensive and defensive lineman, that thought kind of hurts.  My understanding is that you are correct in terms of the elimination of positions for players on the field for each team.  However, if you are dealing with smaller roster sizes, you would look at this as a net gain because you would now have built in depth. Secondly, and @DanteEstonia could probably correct me here, but my understanding is that in 8 man football ALL players are eligible to catch passes, run the ball, etc. which is a lineman's dream.  So in terms of raw opportunities to get on the field, yes, linemen would get shorted, but once you get on the field, if I am correct, you get more opportunities to touch the ball.  That is, if that matters to you.  It would also stand to reason that schools would have the ability, if their numbers allowed, to have JV and Junior High levels of 8 man football as well.

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From a funding standpoint, how does the 8 man differ from 11 man? Same equipment/supply costs, still have to pay coaches, refs,etc. I would assume most of these schools have a field of some sort inside of their track, but who knows what upgrades or updates are needed.

Logistically, I just don't see how schools that have made the choice not to play 11 man football for years can make the financial commitment for 8 man when it clearly hasn't been important to them. Remember, expressing interest is not the same as actually signing up and playing.

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47 minutes ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

That sounds frustrating to say the least.  What about scheme then?  I assume there is a "spread" versus a "power" different offensively?

It’s more like “speed” vs “power”. You do see some novel schemes. When we played Eureka County, the only thing the QB said before snapping the ball was “GO!” His team mates already knew what to do, and they’d switch formations between plays. For some reason, they’d have one random player deep in the backfield. 
 

We did a lot of RPO.

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36 minutes ago, FarmerFran said:

From a funding standpoint, how does the 8 man differ from 11 man? Same equipment/supply costs, still have to pay coaches, refs,etc. I would assume most of these schools have a field of some sort inside of their track, but who knows what upgrades or updates are needed.

Logistically, I just don't see how schools that have made the choice not to play 11 man football for years can make the financial commitment for 8 man when it clearly hasn't been important to them. Remember, expressing interest is not the same as actually signing up and playing.

It could quite literally come down to a couple of kids per class through a school system. It also does depend on what else is currently offered in terms of extracurriculars. I would venture that small schools that already offer sports like soccer (see Rossville) probably aren't even interested based on the number of kids you need to field a soccer team. But if the current offerings are primarily the more "individual" sports like cross country and tennis for boys, that's a situation where something like 8 man football may be considered. 

Another consideration that hasn't even been talked about is Title IX. I don't know the intricacies of that, but it could hurt (meaning to offer 8 man means you have to offer an additional sport for girls) or help (maybe you already have, say, volleyball and have "offered" 11 man in the past just to save legal face). How likely is either scenario?  The second one is probably FAR less likely than the first, but still something to think about. 

2 minutes ago, DanteEstonia said:

Linemen aren’t eligible, but that’s only 3 kids.

Damn. 

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52 minutes ago, FarmerFran said:

Same equipment/supply costs, still have to pay coaches, refs,etc.

I was very fortunate in that our superintendent and some school board members would volunteer to ref games. That meant, however, that I could NEVER question a call.

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Look at Youtube 8 man football. There are a lot of videos including the Illinois 2019 championship game. There are also some very good instructional videos. There is generally a lot more scoring, usually games are in the 40, 50, 60 point range. It seems pretty entertaining to me. I think Indiana is behind the times as is par for the course. 

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