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Indys Top Catholic Powers - Is there a new pecking order?


Guest DT

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Many of us have been watching Indy Catholic football for years, decades, generations, etc.

The past decade has seen many changes amongs the ranks of the big Indy Catholics, and the power profile, or pecking order appears to be under a period of change.

Herer is how I see it today, taking into account first and foremost actual season results, but also factoring in tradition, community support, coaching staff, feeder systems and the pixie dust factor that always seem to help PPs down the stretch when things get tough.

Then I will take a look out and project 5 years down the road:

The Indy Big 5 Catholics :

1. Cathedral - unchallenged at the top of the hill, with a fairly wide moat.  Staff continuity is likely the key to their continued success.

2. Chatard - always plays a few levels above their pay grade.  But with a location that is seeing little growth, can they hold their spot over the long run?

3. Roncalli - the shine is off Rebel Nation, and the program at a clear crossroads under new leadership.  Lots of self inflicted wounds allowing others room to move up.

4. Guerin - solid program with great current and future demographics.  

5. Brebeuf - previous admin turned Brebeuf into a football school.  Fears abound that recent events may reverse that trend.

 

5 Years down the road :

1. Cathedral - still the big dog in town.

2. Guerin - Ham Cty growth fuels the development of a new PP juggernaut

3. Chatard - the Trojans get older and grayer, but still fiesty as hell.

4. Roncalli - the new staff struggles to bring back the magic.

5. Brebeuf - hoops returns to rule the campus

 

 

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I enjoyed reading this, an actual opinion piece about HS FOOTBALL.   How refreshing. 

When I look at those teams listed, to me it is Cathedral now and 5 years, 10 years..... Some teams will have better years thanks others, but body of work will say they will always be the toughest out in the PP world. 

I believe the rest is like 2a,bc,d.    

They will always have competitive kids and teams and quality coaching.  Brebeuf decision was head scratching, by all accounts Coach Roessler was very good coach and well respected across the state and Indy metro area.   

 

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Football chat? Must be at the wrong place. 

 

In all seriousness thanks for posting. Hopefully soon we get more of this and we can stop the weekly update on name calling. I dont know enough to actually chat about this but was a good read. 

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OK, I’ll bite....add that this is an actual thread about football and not the whole Corona/politics BS.

I find it a bit funny that some here are actually thinking Chatard declines when last season they were ranked 6th ALL CLASSES  (That’s 1A-6A for the MENSA members) per Sagarin .  Sagarin’s Predictor ranking had them at 5th ALL CLASSES with only Carmel, Avon, New Pal and Brownsburg ranked ahead of them.  

Chatard’s strength of schedule (SOS) ranking was Top 10 or 15 throughout the regular season but fell to 21st at season’s end largely due to 3A playoffs.  During the regular season, Chatard played an effectively “MIC-like“ overall schedule per comparative SOS rankings..  BTW, I followed the Sagarin SOS rankings throughout the regular season - it was well within the range of the MIC team’s SOS rankings pre-playoffs.

Somehow, neither Cathedral, Brebeuf, Guerin or Roncalli squeeeeeeeeezed ahead of Chatard as to Sagarin rankings last year....some weren’t even in the same solar system.

So before y’all declare Chatard dead and buried (while Chatard is “desperately” clutching those State-leading 14 State Championships in hand), I am quite honestly thinking Chatard (though roughly 1/2 the size of Cathedral....just to remind you folks...lest you forget) will offer even more challenge in the future as to being THE top Indy Metro Parochial (They REALLY should have beat Cathedral last year)

1. Chatard will STILL be the North Indy Archdiocese school.  Say what you want about Hamilton County (Okay, I’ll say it..much of Hamilton County can be a bit....errr, well....... “soft”).

2. Chatard NOW actually has their own football facility for home games which only Roncalli has previously had to offer as an Archdiocesan school (that said, Roncalli football, these days, may well be too cisgender male for them moving forward....I’m expecting them to drop football...I’m hearing they have some great Riverdancers on the South side these days).  

Pretty nice facility, for the record, at Chatard.  FYI - Cathedral still has NO home game facility....nope...none whatsoever.

3. Chatard NOW throws the ball around just a tad (and Coach Doyle was a HS and College QB......add that Rob is a pretty d@mn smart dude) which means Chatard now ACTUALLY competes for Archdiocesan QBs and receivers (and by default gets an upgrade to safeties and defensive backs) which they really didn’t previously.

4. Chatard is still arguably the best Archdiocesan  (and anywhere else for that matter) home for prospective college lineman to make their bones.  The Big’uns are looked at like Chris Hemsworth by EVERYBODY at Chatard....just keep the shirt tucked in.  

Truly, truly sexy dudes.

5. Chatard still RUNS the ball like few teams do.  Running backs can make a name at Chatard.

6. The apparent (and unsurprising) decision by Brebeuf to now focus on artistic swimming, gender studies and navel gazing means that even more actual football players will be available for a real Catholic school like Chatard (yeah, Cathedral too, unfortunately, even though they aren’t a Catholic parochial...life is yin and yang I guess).

I’m sure I am missing tons of new reasons but I think Chatard actually (without any decline by competitors) does nothing except becomes significantly better.  

When you factor in the actual expected decline of Brebeuf and (further decline of) Roncalli as they both drill down hard and focus on their social justice street cred, Chatard (maybe Cathedral) does nothing except get better at playing football....as well as college and career relevant studies.

 

PS.....Again, Chatard is roughly 1/2 the size of Cathedral and a lot smaller than Roncalli.  

Chatard is only about 100 students bigger than Ritter just to give some of you folks some perspective.

 

 

Edited by Lysander
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12 hours ago, DT said:

3. Chatard - the Trojans get older and grayer, but still fiesty as hell.

“Fiesty”?  

Seriously?  

As a wordsmith....that’s the best you got?

A chihuahua is “fiesty”......and easily kicked to the curb.
 

Farthest description I can imagine from Chatard......honest to God......”fiesty”?

 

 

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Here is the crazy thing that people do not realize I do not believe. Cathedral's enrollment is down the past decade a little bit.  This is thanks to Guerin I am sure.  Chatard seems to stay steady.  Roncalli being the only southside Catholic school continues to rise in enrollment.  Should be interesting to see enrollments ten years from now.  

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2 hours ago, Lysander said:

“Fiesty”?  

Seriously?  

As a wordsmith....that’s the best you got?

A chihuahua is “fiesty”......and easily kicked to the curb.
 

Farthest description I can imagine from Chatard......honest to God......”fiesty”?

 

 

chippy is a better term

Like a hockey team with a bad attitude

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I read a Chatard player quote someplace regarding this years state championship where he said, and I am paraphrasing:  We knew we had to step it up this season because we didn't want to be the only class at Chatard without a state championship.  I assume that he meant that every "class" has had a championship at some point in their 4 year tenure at the school?

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19 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

I read a Chatard player quote someplace regarding this years state championship where he said, and I am paraphrasing:  We knew we had to step it up this season because we didn't want to be the only class at Chatard without a state championship.  I assume that he meant that every "class" has had a championship at some point in their 4 year tenure at the school?

Have to go back to the 20th century to find more than a four-class gap when Chatard didn't have a blue ring.  Chatard championships ... 2019, 2015, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2007, 2006, 2003, 2002, 2001, 1998, 1997, 1984 ...

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4 hours ago, Lysander said:

“Fiesty”?  

Seriously?  

As a wordsmith....that’s the best you got?

A chihuahua is “fiesty”......and easily kicked to the curb.
 

Farthest description I can imagine from Chatard......honest to God......”fiesty”?

 

 

I love @Lysander’s feistiness to defend Chatard’s honor. (Oops. 😀)

I would put Cathedral and Chatard as 1A/B and the rest as a second group. I’m also obliged to say Chatard is better pound for pound of course. Lol

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1 hour ago, oldtimeqb said:

I love @Lysander’s feistiness to defend Chatard’s honor. (Oops. 😀)

I would put Cathedral and Chatard as 1A/B and the rest as a second group. I’m also obliged to say Chatard is better pound for pound of course. Lol

The core premise of this post was more to focus on what is coming down the road.

Despite Hamilton County's reputation for general "softness," is Guerin in position to overtake Chatard as the #2 Indy Catholic power in the next decade?

It is very possible that Roncalli could come roaring back under this new regime .

I will say this.  Chatard is feasting on lower classes that are hollowing out due to declining participation at many lower level schools.  While we are seeing more parity at the top end of the class structure, we are seeing pure dominance at the bottom half.  

This plays into Chatards favor.  Frankly, I am a bit disapointed that Chatard has not petitioned to "play up" into the 4A or 5A tournament.  What is more important to the Trojan faithful?  Stockpiling an already overflowing trophy case, or giving your kids the opportunity to compete at the highest level possible?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Lysander said:

 

PS.....Again, Chatard is roughly 1/2 the size of Cathedral and a lot smaller than Roncalli.  

Chatard is only about 100 students bigger than Ritter just to give some of you folks some perspective.

 

 

Enrollments for 2020-2021 according to IHASS.org (https://www.ihsaa.org/Schools/Enrollments-Classifications)

Roncalli: 1,188

Cathedral: 1,099

Brebeuf:  791

Guerin: 761

Chatard: 714

Ritter: 566

Scecina: 427

 

 

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4 minutes ago, DT said:

The core premise of this post was more to focus on what is coming down the road.

Despite Hamilton County's reputation for general "softness," is Guerin in position to overtake Chatard as the #2 Indy Catholic power in the next decade?

It is very possible that Roncalli could come roaring back under this new regime .

I will say this.  Chatard is feasting on lower classes that are hollowing out due to declining participation at many lower level schools.  While we are seeing more parity at the top end of the class structure, we are seeing pure dominance at the bottom half.  

This plays into Chatards favor.  Frankly, I am a bit disapointed that Chatard has not petitioned to "play up" into the 4A or 5A tournament.  What is more important to the Trojan faithful?  Stockpiling an already overflowing trophy case, or giving your kids the opportunity to compete at the highest level possible?

 

 

I’m assuming you’re blowing smoke because that’s your gig but 3A has been the best class pound for pound the last 3 years or so (been a fairly weak class historically....not so now, though).

Most any truly keen observer already knows this which tells me more than a little about your evaluations (or lack thereof....or, simply, your desire to stir that pot.....worked in my case).

 The fact that 3A Evansville Memorial won 4A last year in a comparatively “down“ year for them versus the prior couple of years should say it all.  
Prior to that, in 2017, Chatard fairly easily handled eventual 4A State Champ East Central the last game of the season yet Chatard got smoked by Danville who in turn got smoked by Memorial.


 

 

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12 minutes ago, IndplsCathedral_Dad said:

Enrollments for 2020-2021 according to IHASS.org (https://www.ihsaa.org/Schools/Enrollments-Classifications)

Roncalli: 1,188

Cathedral: 1,099

Brebeuf:  791

Guerin: 761

Chatard: 714

Ritter: 566

Scecina: 427

 

 

Dang, Cathedral admissions appear WAY, WAY down these days.  They used be twice Chatard’s size....people must be catching on.   I’d suggest changing your mascot and adding some Riverdance classes....appears to be working for Roncalli.

 

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4 minutes ago, Lysander said:

I’m assuming you’re blowing smoke because that’s your gig but 3A has been the best class pound for pound the last 3 years or so (been a fairly weak class historically....not so now, though).

Most any truly keen observer already knows this which tells me more than a little about your evaluations (or lack thereof....or, simply, your desire to stir that pot.....worked in my case).

 The fact that 3A Evansville Memorial won 4A last year in a comparatively “down“ year for them versus the prior couple of years should say it all.  
Prior to that, in 2017, Chatard fairly easily handled eventual 4A State Champ East Central the last game of the season yet Chatard got smoked by Danville who in turn got smoked by Memorial.


 

 

I would not agree that the lower classes have been the best pound for pound.  I would agree that they are "top heavy" and lack depth.  

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7 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Dang, Cathedral admissions appear WAY, WAY down these days.  They used be twice Chatard’s size....people must be catching on.   I’d suggest changing your mascot and adding some Riverdance classes....appears to be working for Roncalli.

 

Therer is no way Cathedral holds at its former peak enrollment when you now have 750 kids at Guerin.  

Plus, I always thought Cathedral was more about "quality" than "quantity."  

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9 minutes ago, DT said:

I would not agree that the lower classes have been the best pound for pound.  I would agree that they are "top heavy" and lack depth.  

Outside of Carmel last year, I don’t think ANY North team in 4A (that’s a given), 5A or 6A survives little ole’ 3A Sectional 28 this past year.

Edited by Lysander
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11 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Outside of Carmel last year, I don’t think ANY North team in 4A (that’s a given), 5A or 6A survives little ole’ 3A Sectional 28 this past year.

Precisely why Id like to see those Broad Ripple Bullies play up a class or two in lieu of pounding on rural weaklings in the tournament

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6 minutes ago, DT said:

Precisely why Id like to see those Broad Ripple Bullies play up a class or two in lieu of pounding on rural weaklings in the tournament

Agreed.  "Little 'ole" sectional 28 has it's fair share of public weakling and currently marginal programs.

 

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46 minutes ago, DT said:

The core premise of this post was more to focus on what is coming down the road.

Despite Hamilton County's reputation for general "softness," is Guerin in position to overtake Chatard as the #2 Indy Catholic power in the next decade?

It is very possible that Roncalli could come roaring back under this new regime .

I will say this.  Chatard is feasting on lower classes that are hollowing out due to declining participation at many lower level schools.  While we are seeing more parity at the top end of the class structure, we are seeing pure dominance at the bottom half.  

This plays into Chatards favor.  Frankly, I am a bit disapointed that Chatard has not petitioned to "play up" into the 4A or 5A tournament.  What is more important to the Trojan faithful?  Stockpiling an already overflowing trophy case, or giving your kids the opportunity to compete at the highest level possible?

 

 

I had little bit longer response, but I did not post it.  I just could not phrase it in a way that sounded like a criticism of Guerin, and I don't want it to be construed as a derogatory comment.  Simply put, if Guerin was going to be considered a football power on par with the Indy schools, they should have had more success by now.   

My gut tells me that Guerin could have some great 1A/2A P/P football teams like LCC, Indy Lutheran, Heritage Christian, Ritter, and even Guerin in its early years.  The financial realities of its location and demographics means that it will have to maintain enrollment on the 3A/4A range for financial viability.       

My take is that Chatard has the tradition, culture, and ability to maintain its place as a top 3A/4A (with success factor) power.  I don't think Guerin's football tradition has caught up with its size yet. To answer your question, I don't think it will overtake Chatard in the next decade. Just the opinion of an outsider. 

And if I'm not mistaken, isn't Guerin part of the Lafayette Diocese, as opposed to Indianapolis?  That may matter, although I'm not sure to what extent.  

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4 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

I had little bit longer response, but I did not post it.  I just could not phrase it in a way that sounded like a criticism of Guerin, and I don't want it to be construed as a derogatory comment.  Simply put, if Guerin was going to be considered a football power on par with the Indy schools, they should have had more success by now.   

My gut tells me that Guerin could have some great 1A/2A P/P football teams like LCC, Indy Lutheran, Heritage Christian, Ritter, and even Guerin in its early years.  The financial realities of its location and demographics means that it will have to maintain enrollment on the 3A/4A range for financial viability.       

My take is that Chatard has the tradition, culture, and ability to maintain its place as a top 3A/4A (with success factor) power.  I don't think Guerin's football tradition has caught up with its size yet. To answer your question, I don't think it will overtake Chatard in the next decade. Just the opinion of an outsider. 

And if I'm not mistaken, isn't Guerin part of the Lafayette Diocese, as opposed to Indianapolis?  That may matter, although I'm not sure to what extent.  

Guerin is one of two Catholic high schools in the Diocese of Lafayette-In-Indiana ... LCC is the other.  LCC is the "older brother" while Guerin is the "younger" and was founded in 2004.  The two schools are also far enough apart that there's no real crossover parishes for students, so the schools don't really have any direct or even indirect parish boundaries, etc. that you sometimes see in some of the Indy Catholic schools.  That probably works as an advantage for Guerin in terms of Catholic students.

I think that the age of the program has some impact, as you allude to.  Also, Guerin's only been in 3A for seven seasons.  Matter of fact, Guerin started playing IHSAA football back in 2006.  They spent five years in 1A and a couple in 2A before eventually settling in 3A back in the 2013 season. 

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18 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Guerin is one of two Catholic high schools in the Diocese of Lafayette-In-Indiana ... LCC is the other.  LCC is the "older brother" while Guerin is the "younger" and was founded in 2004.  The two schools are also far enough apart that there's no real crossover parishes for students, so the schools don't really have any direct or even indirect parish boundaries, etc. that you sometimes see in some of the Indy Catholic schools.  That probably works as an advantage for Guerin in terms of Catholic students.

I think that the age of the program has some impact, as you allude to.  Also, Guerin's only been in 3A for seven seasons.  Matter of fact, Guerin started playing IHSAA football back in 2006.  They spent five years in 1A and a couple in 2A before eventually settling in 3A back in the 2013 season. 

Lets not fool ourselves.  Guerin is about as part of Lafayette as Carmel is.  In Diocesen name only.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Guerin+Catholic+High+School/@40.0102938,-86.1572419,12z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x8814b1e3bdac7365:0x8104ec95010ad1ca!8m2!3d40.0102938!4d-86.0872041

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30 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Guerin is one of two Catholic high schools in the Diocese of Lafayette-In-Indiana ... LCC is the other.  LCC is the "older brother" while Guerin is the "younger" and was founded in 2004.  The two schools are also far enough apart that there's no real crossover parishes for students, so the schools don't really have any direct or even indirect parish boundaries, etc. that you sometimes see in some of the Indy Catholic schools.  That probably works as an advantage for Guerin in terms of Catholic students.

I wasn't implying Westfield/Carmel/Noblesville were anywhere near Lafayette.  I just assumed a level of price difference for those students to 'crossover' into another Diocese. 

For example a family/student in NE Marion county who attends an Indy parish, can they choose between Roncalli and Chatard (both Indy) with minimal price difference? Choosing Guerin, since it's another Diocese would be a non-assessed parish and therefore the tuition would be higher?  

Not to stray off the football power question, just an assumption on my part that may impact enrollment numbers, and ultimately bodies available for a football team. 

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