Indys Top Catholic Powers - Is there a new pecking order?

[bigfish]

8 hours ago, Lysander said:

OK, I’ll bite....add that this is an actual thread about football and not the whole Corona/politics BS.

I find it a bit funny that some here are actually thinking Chatard declines when last season they were ranked 6th ALL CLASSES  (That’s 1A-6A for the MENSA members) per Sagarin .  Sagarin’s Predictor ranking had them at 5th ALL CLASSES with only Carmel, Avon, New Pal and Brownsburg ranked ahead of them.  

Chatard’s strength of schedule (SOS) ranking was Top 10 or 15 throughout the regular season but fell to 21st at season’s end largely due to 3A playoffs.  During the regular season, Chatard played an effectively “MIC-like“ overall schedule per comparative SOS rankings..  BTW, I followed the Sagarin SOS rankings throughout the regular season - it was well within the range of the MIC team’s SOS rankings pre-playoffs.

Somehow, neither Cathedral, Brebeuf, Guerin or Roncalli squeeeeeeeeezed ahead of Chatard as to Sagarin rankings last year....some weren’t even in the same solar system.

So before y’all declare Chatard dead and buried (while Chatard is “desperately” clutching those State-leading 14 State Championships in hand), I am quite honestly thinking Chatard (though roughly 1/2 the size of Cathedral....just to remind you folks...lest you forget) will offer even more challenge in the future as to being THE top Indy Metro Parochial (They REALLY should have beat Cathedral last year)

1. Chatard will STILL be the North Indy Archdiocese school.  Say what you want about Hamilton County (Okay, I’ll say it..much of Hamilton County can be a bit....errr, well....... “soft”).

2. Chatard NOW actually has their own football facility for home games which only Roncalli has previously had to offer as an Archdiocesan school (that said, Roncalli football, these days, may well be too cisgender male for them moving forward....I’m expecting them to drop football...I’m hearing they have some great Riverdancers on the South side these days).  

Pretty nice facility, for the record, at Chatard.  FYI - Cathedral still has NO home game facility....nope...none whatsoever.

3. Chatard NOW throws the ball around just a tad (and Coach Doyle was a HS and College QB......add that Rob is a pretty d@mn smart dude) which means Chatard now ACTUALLY competes for Archdiocesan QBs and receivers (and by default gets an upgrade to safeties and defensive backs) which they really didn’t previously.

4. Chatard is still arguably the best Archdiocesan  (and anywhere else for that matter) home for prospective college lineman to make their bones.  The Big’uns are looked at like Chris Hemsworth by EVERYBODY at Chatard....just keep the shirt tucked in.  

Truly, truly sexy dudes.

5. Chatard still RUNS the ball like few teams do.  Running backs can make a name at Chatard.

6. The apparent (and unsurprising) decision by Brebeuf to now focus on artistic swimming, gender studies and navel gazing means that even more actual football players will be available for a real Catholic school like Chatard (yeah, Cathedral too, unfortunately, even though they aren’t a Catholic parochial...life is yin and yang I guess).

I’m sure I am missing tons of new reasons but I think Chatard actually (without any decline by competitors) does nothing except becomes significantly better.  

When you factor in the actual expected decline of Brebeuf and (further decline of) Roncalli as they both drill down hard and focus on their social justice street cred, Chatard (maybe Cathedral) does nothing except get better at playing football....as well as college and career relevant studies.

 

PS.....Again, Chatard is roughly 1/2 the size of Cathedral and a lot smaller than Roncalli.  

Chatard is only about 100 students bigger than Ritter just to give some of you folks some perspective.

 

 

Lysander: MY President

[foxbat]

2 minutes ago, DT said:

Lets not fool ourselves.  Guerin is about as part of Lafayette as Carmel is.  In Diocesen name only.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Guerin+Catholic+High+School/@40.0102938,-86.1572419,12z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x8814b1e3bdac7365:0x8104ec95010ad1ca!8m2!3d40.0102938!4d-86.0872041

Not really sure what you are getting at. West Terre Haute is about as much a part of Indy as Carmel is, yet West Terre Haute is part of the Indy Archdiocese.  Similarly, Linton's about as much a part of Evansville as Carmel is, yet Linton is in the Evansville Diocese.

[foxbat]

2 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

I wasn't implying Westfield/Carmel/Noblesville were anywhere near Lafayette.  I just assumed a level of price difference for those students to 'crossover' into another Diocese. 

For example a family/student in NE Marion county who attends an Indy parish, can they choose between Roncalli and Chatard (both Indy) with minimal price difference? Choosing Guerin, since it's another Diocese would be a non-assessed parish and therefore the tuition would be higher?  

Not to stray off the football power question, just an assumption on my part that may impact enrollment numbers, and ultimately bodies available for a football team. 

You typically don't see "crossovers" all that much.  Catholic parishes and their elementary schools and Catholic high schools often work like gang turf in the way that different parishes "supply" different high schools.  Cathedral operates at a distinct disadvantage because it isn't a Catholic school in the sense that it has Catholic deanery schools that feed it.  I think Guerin charges a flat tuition regardless of parish or even faith.  They do offer a discount if the student's parents work for Marian University. In contrast, for LCC and LCSS, the question asked is "What is your registered parish?"  In the case of LCSS, if that parish is within the Diocese of Lafayette-In-Indiana, there's a "Catholic diocesan" discount.  If not, even if you are Catholic, it is considered "Other" and you pay a higher tuition rate.  Also, LCSS has multi-kid discounts for parishioners in the "local" parishes ... Blessed Sacrament, St. Ann, St. Boniface, St. Lawrence, St. Mary Cathedral and St. Thomas Aquinas.  These are the local parishes that provide direct support of LCSS, so if you have two or more kids in the system AND are registered parishioners of those parishes you get the "Catholic discount" as well as the "local parish" discount.  I'm not as familiar with Chatard and Roncalli and whether they look more like LCC or Guerin with regard to tuition and potential discounts for non-local students.  By the way, as an interesting comparison, the base tuition of LCC and Guerin are about $9,500 and $15,000 respectively. 

 

 

[GC42]

3 hours ago, DT said:

The core premise of this post was more to focus on what is coming down the road.

Despite Hamilton County's reputation for general "softness," is Guerin in position to overtake Chatard as the #2 Indy Catholic power in the next decade?

It is very possible that Roncalli could come roaring back under this new regime .

I will say this.  Chatard is feasting on lower classes that are hollowing out due to declining participation at many lower level schools.  While we are seeing more parity at the top end of the class structure, we are seeing pure dominance at the bottom half.  

This plays into Chatards favor.  Frankly, I am a bit disapointed that Chatard has not petitioned to "play up" into the 4A or 5A tournament.  What is more important to the Trojan faithful?  Stockpiling an already overflowing trophy case, or giving your kids the opportunity to compete at the highest level possible?

 

 

One of the real challenges for Guerin is that they are surrounded by outstanding public schools. Carmel High School is 8 minutes away and Westfield High School is 10 minutes away. A lot of Catholic families just can’t afford 15k a year and when you have two 5-star public schools in the same neighborhood it’s a prudent choice to send them to a great school that is tuition free.  

Edited July 28, 2020 by GC42

[MICFan34]

Hearing lots of good things on the Southside about the Roncalli Football Team (SJW strikes again) and the new regime under Coach Rodenberg. Bringing some Roncalli legends into the fold as part of the coaching staff and a blue-collar mentality that has been lacking (1 state championship in the last 15 years). 

Chatard, to me, has been the best Catholic school program in the last 20 years. The Cathedral Swarm may come at me for this but Chatard having 500-ish students should not compete with their 4A-6A schedule, yet they keep reloading and competing with schools that have 2x-4x their enrollment. Cathedral has their pick of Indianapolis while Chatard pulls their kids primarily from the North Archdiocese. Their gritty mentality, cultivated by Dilley, Lorenzano, and Doyle, should be the gold-standard for football programs punching above their weight class. 

 

 

 

[BTF]

 

7 hours ago, Lysander said:

Outside of Carmel last year, I don’t think ANY North team in 4A (that’s a given), 5A or 6A survives little ole’ 3A Sectional 28 this past year.

I think Chatard would have had their hands full with Merrillville, Valpo, Dwenger, and Homestead. 

[Gipper]

5 hours ago, GC42 said:

One of the real challenges for Guerin is that they are surrounded by outstanding public schools. Carmel High School is 8 minutes away and Westfield High School is 10 minutes away. A lot of Catholic families just can’t afford 15k a year and when you have two 5-star public schools in the same neighborhood it’s a prudent choice to send them to a great school that is tuition free.  

This is very true.  Although I’m Catholic and my mother is a Chatard graduate, not everyone can afford a private school education.  The Indianapolis metropolitan area has so many good schools to pick from so it doesn’t really matter if they go to Park-Tudor, Pike, or Ritter: they’ll get a good education.

[Guest DT]

37 minutes ago, Gipper said:

This is very true.  Although I’m Catholic and my mother is a Chatard graduate, not everyone can afford a private school education.  The Indianapolis metropolitan area has so many good schools to pick from so it doesn’t really matter if they go to Park-Tudor, Pike, or Ritter: they’ll get a good education.

I thought kids go to school in the neighborhood they grew up in

When did that change?

[Lysander]

1 hour ago, DT said:

I thought kids go to school in the neighborhood they grew up in

When did that change?

Excepting Cathedral and Brebeuf, it didn’t change.

We considered Guerin (even attended a couple of fund raisers...thanks for that Colts signed football, btw) since we, quite literally, lived on the Hamilton/Marion County line but that “no refundable” application made us opt out of considering Guerin (along with their really pricey tuition).....even though my old college teammate was the AD there at the time (another old teammate was, still is, Chatard’s AD).

BTW, DT, do you happen to know of a Highland grad named Tim Vasser?  Another old college teammate....from roughly your vintage...and mine, I believe.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Lysander

[Impartial_Observer]

12 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

I love @Lysander’s feistiness to defend Chatard’s honor. (Oops. 😀)

Ehh, I’m pretty sure his wife put him up to it, besides she’s the real Catholic! She can be quite feisty too.

[Titan32]

I (heart) Chatard.

[Guest DT]

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

Excepting Cathedral and Brebeuf, it didn’t change.

We considered Guerin (even attended a couple of fund raisers...thanks for that Colts signed football, btw) since we, quite literally, lived on the Hamilton/Marion County line but that “no refundable” application made us opt out of considering Guerin (along with their really pricey tuition).....even though my old college teammate was the AD there at the time (another old teammate was, still is, Chatard’s AD).

BTW, DT, do you happen to know of a Highland grad named Tim Vasser?  Another old college teammate....from roughly your vintage...and mine, I believe.

Yes  Tim was a RB .  I believe he graduated 1976.  I was a few years behind in 1979.  He was an outstanding sprinter on the track team.  Tough kid.  His Dad Larry was a big shot in Highland on the school board and running all the youth athletics in town.   Brother Pat graduated in 1978.  Was a DE   Nice family

[Lysander]

19 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Ehh, I’m pretty sure his wife put him up to it, besides she’s the real Catholic! She can be quite feisty too.

She was out of town when I sent her the link regarding Roncalli’s (and the Archdiocese as well)......prostration.

I can’t print here just exactly what she had to say about Roncalli and the Archdiocese being.....err......”vaginas”.....or something to that effect.

She is nothing if not erudite.

I married well.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Lysander

[Dave007]

21 hours ago, DT said:

Therer is no way Cathedral holds at its former peak enrollment when you now have 750 kids at Guerin.  

Plus, I always thought Cathedral was more about "quality" than "quantity."  

Cathedrals sweet-spot for enrollment has always been around 1,100-1,200 students.  The new expansion of the $12 million Innovation STEM Center that will be completed next year will be a major draw which will most likely push enrollment higher.

https://www.gocathedral.com/on-campus/innovation-center

Plus the school sits on a sprawling campus with several buildings so they can embrace 'social distancing' more than other schools during the new norm of Covid19.

 

Even with that being said I expect Guerin to exceed 1,000 students sooner than later, given their location in major population boom / growth of Hamilton County.

[Guest DT]

6 hours ago, Dave007 said:

Cathedrals sweet-spot for enrollment has always been around 1,100-1,200 students.  The new expansion of the $12 million Innovation STEM Center that will be completed next year will be a major draw which will most likely push enrollment higher.

https://www.gocathedral.com/on-campus/innovation-center

Plus the school sits on a sprawling campus with several buildings so they can embrace 'social distancing' more than other schools during the new norm of Covid19.

 

Even with that being said I expect Guerin to exceed 1,000 students sooner than later, given their location in major population boom / growth of Hamilton County.

What is Guerins current max capacity?

[GC42]

On 7/29/2020 at 5:37 PM, DT said:

What is Guerins current max capacity?

I believe the max is approximately 800 students.

[oldunclemark]

On 7/28/2020 at 7:30 AM, DT said:

chippy is a better term

Like a hockey team with a bad attitude

Rambunctious.............indefatigable!

[tango]

On 7/28/2020 at 11:07 PM, Titan32 said:

I (heart) Chatard.

LOL. That won’t help you beat them..  

[Titan32]

Just now, tango said:

LOL. That won’t help you beat them..  

Beating them depends on the year and weather I'm told.

[IndianaWrestlingGuy]

On 7/28/2020 at 6:34 AM, Lysander said:

OK, I’ll bite....add that this is an actual thread about football and not the whole Corona/politics BS.

I find it a bit funny that some here are actually thinking Chatard declines when last season they were ranked 6th ALL CLASSES  (That’s 1A-6A for the MENSA members) per Sagarin .  Sagarin’s Predictor ranking had them at 5th ALL CLASSES with only Carmel, Avon, New Pal and Brownsburg ranked ahead of them.  

Chatard’s strength of schedule (SOS) ranking was Top 10 or 15 throughout the regular season but fell to 21st at season’s end largely due to 3A playoffs.  During the regular season, Chatard played an effectively “MIC-like“ overall schedule per comparative SOS rankings..  BTW, I followed the Sagarin SOS rankings throughout the regular season - it was well within the range of the MIC team’s SOS rankings pre-playoffs.

Somehow, neither Cathedral, Brebeuf, Guerin or Roncalli squeeeeeeeeezed ahead of Chatard as to Sagarin rankings last year....some weren’t even in the same solar system.

So before y’all declare Chatard dead and buried (while Chatard is “desperately” clutching those State-leading 14 State Championships in hand), I am quite honestly thinking Chatard (though roughly 1/2 the size of Cathedral....just to remind you folks...lest you forget) will offer even more challenge in the future as to being THE top Indy Metro Parochial (They REALLY should have beat Cathedral last year)

1. Chatard will STILL be the North Indy Archdiocese school.  Say what you want about Hamilton County (Okay, I’ll say it..much of Hamilton County can be a bit....errr, well....... “soft”).

2. Chatard NOW actually has their own football facility for home games which only Roncalli has previously had to offer as an Archdiocesan school (that said, Roncalli football, these days, may well be too cisgender male for them moving forward....I’m expecting them to drop football...I’m hearing they have some great Riverdancers on the South side these days).  

Pretty nice facility, for the record, at Chatard.  FYI - Cathedral still has NO home game facility....nope...none whatsoever.

3. Chatard NOW throws the ball around just a tad (and Coach Doyle was a HS and College QB......add that Rob is a pretty d@mn smart dude) which means Chatard now ACTUALLY competes for Archdiocesan QBs and receivers (and by default gets an upgrade to safeties and defensive backs) which they really didn’t previously.

4. Chatard is still arguably the best Archdiocesan  (and anywhere else for that matter) home for prospective college lineman to make their bones.  The Big’uns are looked at like Chris Hemsworth by EVERYBODY at Chatard....just keep the shirt tucked in.  

Truly, truly sexy dudes.

5. Chatard still RUNS the ball like few teams do.  Running backs can make a name at Chatard.

6. The apparent (and unsurprising) decision by Brebeuf to now focus on artistic swimming, gender studies and navel gazing means that even more actual football players will be available for a real Catholic school like Chatard (yeah, Cathedral too, unfortunately, even though they aren’t a Catholic parochial...life is yin and yang I guess).

I’m sure I am missing tons of new reasons but I think Chatard actually (without any decline by competitors) does nothing except becomes significantly better.  

When you factor in the actual expected decline of Brebeuf and (further decline of) Roncalli as they both drill down hard and focus on their social justice street cred, Chatard (maybe Cathedral) does nothing except get better at playing football....as well as college and career relevant studies.

 

PS.....Again, Chatard is roughly 1/2 the size of Cathedral and a lot smaller than Roncalli.  

Chatard is only about 100 students bigger than Ritter just to give some of you folks some perspective.

 

 

Lots of excuses here @Lysander. Since you are coronating Chatard as “the Northside P/P power“, don’t you think it would be wise to share the heads-up record between Cathedral and Chatard the last 20 years? 
 

Also, when you strip out the Martin brothers from Chatard’s resume, you guys are pretty pedestrian with your linemen. The Irish have as many NFL lineman and have at least 1 more heading to the league next year (Alabama’s starting RG and CHS grad Emil Okifor). And, in my opinion, we have 2 more NFL prospects on this year’s incredibly stacked O-Line (Owen Wood, Junior Left Tackle) and Brenden Wooten (Sophomore TE phenom). Cathedral’s O-Line has to be the top in the state this year and only 1 senior on it. Keep an eye out. 

[IndianaWrestlingGuy]

I think it is 18-2 Cathedral in the last 20. @Lysander Correct me if I’m wrong. 

[Lysander]

On 8/1/2020 at 6:52 PM, IndianaWrestlingGuy said:

Lots of excuses here @Lysander. Since you are coronating Chatard as “the Northside P/P power“, don’t you think it would be wise to share the heads-up record between Cathedral and Chatard the last 20 years? 
 

Also, when you strip out the Martin brothers from Chatard’s resume, you guys are pretty pedestrian with your linemen. The Irish have as many NFL lineman and have at least 1 more heading to the league next year (Alabama’s starting RG and CHS grad Emil Okifor). And, in my opinion, we have 2 more NFL prospects on this year’s incredibly stacked O-Line (Owen Wood, Junior Left Tackle) and Brenden Wooten (Sophomore TE phenom). Cathedral’s O-Line has to be the top in the state this year and only 1 senior on it. Keep an eye out. 

Not pedestrian.  I can think of 5 D1 lineman in the last 5 years....just off the top of my head....not even trying.  Yet, it’s a lot more important to you so I guess you knew the lie in your statement before you even made it.

The Martins chose Chatard for a reason.....best let it go at that.....admittedly, they didn’t need the Cathedral coffers of oft offered money and simply paid full tuition at Chatard.

No doubt Cathedral has the best money can buy....until they don’t...or Columbus East or New Pal proves otherwise Mercedes don’t matter.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Lysander

[Lysander]

On 8/7/2020 at 12:35 AM, IndianaWrestlingGuy said:

I think it is 18-2 Cathedral in the last 20. @Lysander Correct me if I’m wrong. 

Jeez,  IWG, do you take the little blue pills whenever you see the word “Chatard”?  

It’s like you are responding to yourself.

I get it, though,........most of you wealthy antiquarians at Cathedral occasionally need a bit of an “assist”.  Good on you Irish for keeping on keeping on, though.  

Excepting me, of course, we all need a bit of an occasional “lift”.

You’re wrong per your earlier self-responding post, of course...no shock there.  You belittled comparing the size of schools earlier as regards Chatard v. Cathedral (which in most years is twice as large as Chatard...despite recent declines in Cathedral student population....you guys need to switch some of that financial “need” dollars to regular students) yet you were happy to step out of 6A after you didn’t make the cut.

The reality here is that Cathedral can reach out and talk DIRECTLY to every individual archdiocese student and parent by phone and tell them they can be a star and win a State Ring at Cathedral (or, not mentioned during that phone call, simply be gold helmet fodder....).  Chatard can’t call anyone (about ANYTHING)....including their own Archdiocese kids.

That said, it would be hard for me to imagine that the rest of the state could dislike Cathedral more (as in “hate”) if they recognized Cathedral’s full advantages......

OK...Cathedral is 15-5 v. Chatard the last 20 years.  You were wrong (no surprise).

I'm thinking Chatard’s 10 State Championships the last 20 years vs Cathedral’s lesser number might have addled you.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Lysander

[gonzoron]

On 8/1/2020 at 6:52 PM, IndianaWrestlingGuy said:

Lots of excuses here @Lysander. Since you are coronating Chatard as “the Northside P/P power“, don’t you think it would be wise to share the heads-up record between Cathedral and Chatard the last 20 years? 
 

Also, when you strip out the Martin brothers from Chatard’s resume, you guys are pretty pedestrian with your linemen. The Irish have as many NFL lineman and have at least 1 more heading to the league next year (Alabama’s starting RG and CHS grad Emil Okifor). And, in my opinion, we have 2 more NFL prospects on this year’s incredibly stacked O-Line (Owen Wood, Junior Left Tackle) and Brenden Wooten (Sophomore TE phenom). Cathedral’s O-Line has to be the top in the state this year and only 1 senior on it. Keep an eye out. 

Classic first post. We've seen a lot of 'em just like this one.  Keep 'em comin'! 

[foxbat]

6 hours ago, Lysander said:

Jeez,  IWG, do you take the little blue pills whenever you see the word “Chatard”?  

It’s like you are responding to yourself.

I get it, though,........most of you wealthy antiquarians at Cathedral occasionally need a bit of an “assist”.  Good on you Irish for keeping on keeping on, though.  

Excepting me, of course, we all need a bit of an occasional “lift”.

You’re wrong per your earlier self-responding post, of course...no shock there.  You belittled comparing the size of schools earlier as regards Chatard v. Cathedral (which in most years is twice as large as Chatard...despite recent declines in Cathedral student population....you guys need to switch some of that financial “need” dollars to regular students) yet you were happy to step out of 6A after you didn’t make the cut.

The reality here is that Cathedral can reach out and talk DIRECTLY to every individual archdiocese student and parent by phone and tell them they can be a star and win a State Ring at Cathedral (or, not mentioned during that phone call, simply be gold helmet fodder....).  Chatard can’t call anyone (about ANYTHING)....including their own Archdiocese kids.

That said, it would be hard for me to imagine that the rest of the state could dislike Cathedral more (as in “hate”) if they recognized Cathedral’s full advantages......

OK...Cathedral is 15-5 v. Chatard the last 20 years.  You were wrong (no surprise).

I'm thinking Chatard’s 10 State Championships the last 20 years vs Cathedral’s lesser number might have addled you.

OUCH!