Muda69 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 https://reason.com/2020/09/04/sex-predators-victimless-crime-children-police-washington/ Quote Instead of going after actual sexual predators, some police officers have discovered that it's easier to just trick people. These cops go on adult dating sites, pose as grown women, find lonely guys, flirt, and then claim they are actually underage. The photos they send of "themselves" depict real women in their 20s. When the mark arranges a date, the cops arrest him as a predator. These stings are the subject of a remarkable piece in The New York Times Magazine by Michael Winerip. He begins by profiling 20-year-old Jace Hambrick, a young man living at home, working in construction and doing a lot of gaming in Vancouver, Washington. When Hambrick found "Gamer Gurl" on Craigslist (which requires users to be 18) he couldn't believe his luck: A woman who professed to love gaming and was looking for a boyfriend. They chatted for awhile and then "Gamer Gurl" said she was actually 13. "Why did you post an ad in craigslist if your 13? You mean 23?" asked Hambrick. They emailed, then texted, and she eventually shared a photo of herself. She looked like she was in her late teens or early 20s, she made cultural references most 13-year-olds wouldn't get, and she gave Hambrick driving directions to her home. When he arrived, the person who greeted him was the same woman from the picture. But when he entered the home, two cops handcuffed him. The beautiful young woman was an adult police officer. Hambrick was sentenced to 18-months-to life, and a minimum of 10 years on the sexual offense registry. (The "to-life" part is real: The state reserves the right to keep extending the sentence indefinitely.) The Times article explains that cops have arrested 300 men over the past four years via what the Washington state police dubbed "Operation Net Nanny." Many end up serving more time than men convicted of actually raping real kids. The disconnect between their "crime" and the fact no flesh-and-blood child was actually ever in danger—nor were the men looking for under-age partners—does not seem to matter to the cops. Yet a state police captain giddily described the stings as an amazing return on investment: "Plea bargains start at 10 years in prison. Compared to other criminal cases that can take a year or longer, may result in a few years in prison, costs hundreds of man-hours and still only result in a single arrest, this is a significant return on investment. Mathematically, it only costs $2,500 per arrest during this operation! Considering the high level of potential offense, there is a meager investment that pays huge dividends." Apparently sending people away for the longest possible time, not actually protecting the public, is the goal. That the "meager investment" means locking away chumps who bit the confusing bait of a middle-aged male cop posing as a 20-something female cop posing as a 13-year-old female gamer, well, who cares? "Think of the "dividends." Winerip's article also details the cozy relationship between the police and a non-profit ostensibly dedicated to saving children from trafficking: Operation Underground Railroad. OUR, as it's called, donated more than $170,000 to the Washington police to support these stings. These funds "paid for additional detectives, hotels, food and overtime." Seemingly in return, the police helped the organization reap positive publicity. And of course, the more predators the cops catch, the more people are eager to donate to an organization focused on this scourge. They must donate generously. OUR's founder, Tim Ballard, earned $343,000 in 2018. The fact that his organization supports a police operation that doesn't help any real child victims and seems to create predators out of lonely men falling for fictional characters? Details, details. Think of the dividends! Frankly this is nothing but entrapment, and needs to stop. Think of the dividends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swordfish Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 I can agree with the basis of the story since these cases you are linking to are victimless (Per se) What I have a hard time comprehending WHY this story https://spectrumnews1.com/ky/lexington/news/2020/09/07/us-marshals-rescue-72-children-from-georgia-ohio-indiana-september-august isn't getting any traction? NATIONWIDE — U.S. Marshals announced the safe rescue of 8 “highly endangered” missing children in Indiana over the weekend as part of “Operation Homecoming.” Similar operations in nearby states have led to the rescue of 72 children since mid-August. What You Need To Know U.S. Marshals have rescued 72 children across the Midwest in three separate operations since mid-August Indiana's "Operation Homecoming" led to the safe rescue of eight "highly endangered" children Ohio's "Operation Safety Net" led to rescue of 25 children in the effort's first two weeks Georgia's "Operation Not Forgotten" led to the rescue or safe location of 39 children The coordinated search in Indiana, which included multiple state and local agencies, led to the arrest of one suspect, per a news release from the U.S. Marshals. “Federal investigators coordinated with IMPD and NCMEC to recover eight highly endangered missing children resulting in one arrest of an adult subject for charges filed, including alleged crimes related to parental kidnapping, intimidation, weapons possession and custodial interference,” the statement read in part. “These children, between the ages of 6 and 17, were considered to be some of the most at-risk and challenging recovery cases in the area, based on indications of high-risk factors such as victimization of child sex trafficking, child exploitation, sex abuse, physical abuse and medical or mental health conditions,” the statment continued. The children were turned over to the Indiana Department of Child Services. Further details on the case have not been released. “The Marshals are committed to assisting state and local agencies with locating and recovering endangered missing children to help prevent their falling victim to crimes of violence and exploitation,” Dan McClain, U.S. Marshal for the Southern District of Indiana, said following the rescue. “The message that we wish to convey to the missing children and their families is that we will use every resource at our disposal to find you.” In late August, U.S. Marshals announced that a similar sting in Ohio dubbed “Operation Safety Net” recovered 25 missing children in its first two weeks, although the operation is ongoing. The children, between 13 and 18 years old, were mostly recovered from high-risk situations, and at least one child was found as far away as Florida. “These are kids that have been abused, neglected. Some involved in human trafficking,” U.S. Marshal Pete Elliott told local Cleveland station WOIO. “Some we found in Miami, Fla. We have Bedford, Bedford Heights, West Side, East Side, Akron, Mansfield and so on...We’re trying to do our part. A number of these children have gone to the hospital after we’ve recovered them to get checked out, so again this is something we take very seriously.” Just a few days before Ohio announced the success of their operation, 39 missing children, including some alleged sex-trafficking victims, were recovered following a two-week operation in Georgia. “Operation Not Forgotten” in metro Atlanta and Macon resulted in the rescue of 25 children, the safe location of 13 others and the arrests of nine people for alleged crimes related to sex trafficking, parental kidnapping, registered sex-offender violations, drugs and weapons possession, and custodial interference. The initiative involved the U.S. Marshals Service, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and Georgia state and local agencies. The missing children were considered to be some of the most at-risk and challenging recovery cases in the area, based on indications of sex trafficking, exploitation, sexual abuse, physical abuse and medical or mental health conditions, the U.S. Marshals Service said in a press release. Fifteen of the children had allegedly been trafficked for sex, authorities said, according to the Atlanta Journal Constitution. “Sex trafficking can be, in many ways, a hidden crime — one that lives in the shadows,” Georgia Attorney General Chris Carr said at a news conference Thursday. “If we can save one child from a life of abuse or sex trafficking, we’ve done our job. And this operation did that for many, many children.” In other cases, children were located at the request of law enforcement to ensure their well-being. Investigators were able to confirm each child’s location in person and assure their safety and welfare. The children ranged in ages from 3 to 17 and had been missing anywhere from two weeks to two years. Some of them were reluctant to leave the homes where they were found, which officials said often happens with children or teens who are repeatedly subjected to sexual abuse. Donald Washington, director of the U.S. Marshals Service, said that of the more than 421,000 children missing in the country, 91% are considered endangered runaways and about one-sixth are likely to become sex-trafficking victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alduflux Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 On 9/4/2020 at 3:47 PM, Muda69 said: https://reason.com/2020/09/04/sex-predators-victimless-crime-children-police-washington/ Frankly this is nothing but entrapment, and needs to stop. Think of the dividends. Entrapment is a technical thing and the article didn't give enough details to determine if entrapment happened or not. The part that is unclear is did the guy think he was going to that house to have a sexual relationship with a 13 year old or not? No matter how old someone looks, if they tell you they are 13 and you arrange to have sex with them you should be arrested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted September 11, 2020 Author Share Posted September 11, 2020 FTA: Quote They chatted for awhile and then "Gamer Gurl" said she was actually 13. "Why did you post an ad in craigslist if your 13? You mean 23?" asked Hambrick. So what was the cops response when he said do you mean 23? Why is that left out? It likely was not left out because the scumbag cop would have had to work at duping someone else after reiterating she was 13 and the mark disconnecting. You see, if them don’t meet their duping quota then them miss out on the opportunity to get in on “These funds (which) “paid for additional detectives, hotels, food and overtime.” And one of the comments to this story puts it thus: Quote In virtue theory ethics, Hambrick is not habituated toward the good (assuming he really did think that he was pursuing a minor) which makes him immoral. However, we need to realize the context of how this happened. Police posed as minors not to actually save children who are victimized by abusers but to arrest as many people as possible as cheap as possible (see police captain quote). Hambrick is morally compromised and needs help to habituate himself to the good, but he clearly wasn’t originally seeking to commit statutory rape. It was only when the police created the opportunity (after they had enticed him with what most people would assume is a woman in her twenties who met Hambrick’s preferences for video games and openly seeking a relationship) that Hambrick chose to pursue what is a morally reprehensible act. For all we know, Hambrick would have never pursued a minor if the “opportunity” was not deceptively placed in his lap without him even requesting it. The police get applause for how they are “protecting children” which none were actually protected or saved in this case. Meanwhile, children who are actually being trafficked are not being saved, and the leaders of these underground institutions are being left to continue operating. Police resources are being diverted to catch what we could call “potential criminals” rather than catching real criminals currently committing acts of aggression and saving victims who are currently undergoing abuse. It is a complete failure of the police system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alduflux Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 On 9/11/2020 at 8:36 AM, Muda69 said: FTA: So what was the cops response when he said do you mean 23? Why is that left out? It likely was not left out because the scumbag cop would have had to work at duping someone else after reiterating she was 13 and the mark disconnecting. You see, if them don’t meet their duping quota then them miss out on the opportunity to get in on “These funds (which) “paid for additional detectives, hotels, food and overtime.” And one of the comments to this story puts it thus: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/26/magazine/sex-offender-operation-net-nanny.html I finally got around to reading the source story that I linked above. After the guy said "...do you mean 23?" the article says "Was this an elaborate game? Again she claimed to be 13." The suspect had a bench trial and upon conviction the judges remarks included “the defendant clearly expressed by words and conduct that he intended to have sex with a 13-year-old.” The word "dividends" has been misinterpreted by both you and the article you quote in the op. The whole quote in context is "Considering the high level of potential offense, there is a meager investment that pays huge dividends." In this context "dividends" refers to preventing a predator from harming a victim. Law enforcement can be reactive or proactive. Operations such as these are attempts to be proactive, so of course there is no real "victim". Weather or not these type of operations actually prevent crime is a fine discussion to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted September 12, 2020 Author Share Posted September 12, 2020 23 minutes ago, Alduflux said: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/26/magazine/sex-offender-operation-net-nanny.html I finally got around to reading the source story that I linked above. After the guy said "...do you mean 23?" the article says "Was this an elaborate game? Again she claimed to be 13." The suspect had a bench trial and upon conviction the judges remarks included “the defendant clearly expressed by words and conduct that he intended to have sex with a 13-year-old.” The word "dividends" has been misinterpreted by both you and the article you quote in the op. The whole quote in context is "Considering the high level of potential offense, there is a meager investment that pays huge dividends." In this context "dividends" refers to preventing a predator from harming a victim. Law enforcement can be reactive or proactive. Operations such as these are attempts to be proactive, so of course there is no real "victim". Weather or not these type of operations actually prevent crime is a fine discussion to have. Key word: potential. We are on a slippery slope to the world of Minority Report. Do you want to live in that world? And I never misinterpreted the word "dividends". But as the comment above implies, why are the Washington S.P. not going after the active child traffickers? Surely the taxpayers resources expended to dream up and run "Operation Net Nanny" could have been spent actually going after real "bad guys". But no, it's clear that this type of entrapment is much easier than you know, doing real police work. And it makes the police departments bottom line look better for the lesser amount of effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alduflux Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Muda69 said: We are on a slippery slope to the world of Minority Report. Do you want to live in that world? Of course not. I do want to live in a world where people whose conduct and actions facilitate them in committing crimes they intend to commit are arrested before they commit such crime. An elected judge determined that happened in this case. Did I mention the guy bought condoms before going to meet the girl at her house? Their dialogue include plenty of innuendo and sexual messaging. His defense entirely rest on his statement that "I was going to walk away if she was actually 13." (not verbatim). No one should be arrested for wanting to kill their ex wife (just having the thought). People who actively try to hire a hit man to kill their ex wife should be arrested. In the case above the judge determined the guy tried to hire a hit man. Edited September 12, 2020 by Alduflux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted September 12, 2020 Author Share Posted September 12, 2020 19 minutes ago, Alduflux said: Of course not. I do want to live in a world where people whose conduct and actions facilitate them in committing crimes they intend to commit are arrested before they commit such crime. An elected judge determined that happened in this case. Did I mention the guy bought condoms before going to meet the girl at her house? Their dialogue include plenty of innuendo and sexual messaging. His defense entirely rest on his statement that "I was going to walk away if she was actually 13." (not verbatim). No one should be arrested for wanting to kill their ex wife (just having the thought). People who actively try to hire a hit man to kill their ex wife should be arrested. In the case above the judge determined the guy tried to hire a hit man. I generally don't believe in victimless crimes. Sorry that you do. As for the condoms and dialogue it's clear Mr. Hambrick wished to have a sexual relationship with "gamer gurl", and from what I have read still believed was 23, not 13. Why would the judge in this case not believe an individual who up to this point had never committed a "crime" (and really had not in this case, either)? No, this was a setup, plain and simple. Designed to pump up Washington State P.D. arrest statistics the "easy way", when they could have been out doing real police work, aka chasing down and arresting known child traffickers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alduflux Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, Muda69 said: I generally don't believe in victimless crimes. Sorry that you do. So how do you feel about my "kill the ex wife" analogy? If a guy hires a hit man to kill his ex wife should an arrest be made before the murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted September 13, 2020 Author Share Posted September 13, 2020 16 hours ago, Alduflux said: So how do you feel about my "kill the ex wife" analogy? If a guy hires a hit man to kill his ex wife should an arrest be made before the murder? Did money change hands from the guy to the hit man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alduflux Posted September 13, 2020 Share Posted September 13, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Muda69 said: Did money change hands from the guy to the hit man? Scenario A: Guy shows up at house with 20K in cash to give to hitman. No exchange of money. Do you arrest? Scenario B: Guy shows up at house with 20K in cash and gives it to hitman. Money is exchanged. Do you arrest? Scenario .C: Agreement is made for hitman to kill wife first and money will exchange after life insurance is collected. Do you arrest? (in each scenario the hitman is a undercover cop) Edited September 13, 2020 by Alduflux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted September 14, 2020 Author Share Posted September 14, 2020 16 hours ago, Alduflux said: Scenario A: Guy shows up at house with 20K in cash to give to hitman. No exchange of money. Do you arrest? No. 16 hours ago, Alduflux said: Scenario B: Guy shows up at house with 20K in cash and gives it to hitman. Money is exchanged. Do you arrest? No. 16 hours ago, Alduflux said: Scenario .C: Agreement is made for hitman to kill wife first and money will exchange after life insurance is collected. Do you arrest? No. You did not reveal the exact circumstances around how the "guy" came in contact with the undercover LEO posing as a "hitman". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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