Blocked punt recovery

[Purdue Pete]

Punt is partially blocked and goes straight up to around the line of scrimmage.  A defensive lineman attempts to field the punt but muffs the catch and the ball is loose.  Recovered by the kicking team.  Whose ball?

[Impartial_Observer]

The “around” the LOS needs to be a little more defined.  

 

[Bobref]

Did the defensive player touch the kick beyond the line of scrimmage? If he did, and the ball hadn’t been first touched beyond the LOS by a K player, whoever has the ball at the end of the down is going to be able to keep it, 1st & 10. If the ball wasn’t beyond when touched, it’s dead there where recovered by the K player. 

[gonzoron]

15 minutes ago, Bobref said:

If the ball wasn’t beyond when touched, it’s dead there where recovered by the K player. 

And R's ball?

[Bobref]

12 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

And R's ball?

If the kick is recovered by R anywhere on the field, it belongs to R. In this scenario, if the ball is not touched by R beyond the LOS, then it depends what down it was when kicked. If it’s 4th down, and the recovery is behind the LOS it’s going to be R’s ball regardless who recovers, because the line to gain was not made. If it wasn’t 4th down, if K recovers behind the LOS, it’s K’s ball and the down counts. These all assume a recovery, but no advance.

[Purdue Pete]

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

Did the defensive player touch the kick beyond the line of scrimmage? If he did, and the ball hadn’t been first touched beyond the LOS by a K player, whoever has the ball at the end of the down is going to be able to keep it, 1st & 10. If the ball wasn’t beyond when touched, it’s dead there where recovered by the K player. 

It was 4th down.  Went back and watched film and it was very close but I would say that the Dlineman was slightly behind the LOS when attempting to field the punt.  The ball was recovered by K team behind the LOS.

46 minutes ago, Bobref said:

If the kick is recovered by R anywhere on the field, it belongs to R. In this scenario, if the ball is not touched by R beyond the LOS, then it depends what down it was when kicked. If it’s 4th down, and the recovery is behind the LOS it’s going to be R’s ball regardless who recovers, because the line to gain was not made. If it wasn’t 4th down, if K recovers behind the LOS, it’s K’s ball and the down counts. These all assume a recovery, but no advance.

It was 4th down.  Went back and watched film and it was very close but I would say that the Dlineman was slightly behind the LOS when attempting to field the punt.  The ball was recovered by K team behind the LOS And was not advanced 

[Impartial_Observer]

50 minutes ago, Purdue Pete said:

It was 4th down.  Went back and watched film and it was very close but I would say that the Dlineman was slightly behind the LOS when attempting to field the punt.  The ball was recovered by K team behind the LOS.

It was 4th down.  Went back and watched film and it was very close but I would say that the Dlineman was slightly behind the LOS when attempting to field the punt.  The ball was recovered by K team behind the LOS And was not advanced 

1st and 10 for R at the spot the kick ended.

[gonzoron]

6 hours ago, Purdue Pete said:

Punt is partially blocked and goes straight up to around the line of scrimmage.  A defensive lineman attempts to field the punt but muffs the catch and the ball is loose.  Recovered by the kicking team.  Whose ball?

What was the ruling on the field?

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, gonzoron said:

What was the ruling on the field?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Purdue Pete]

17 hours ago, Bobref said:

Inquiring minds want to know.

Sounds like they got it right.  R ball at the spot if the recovery. 

[Bobref]

1 minute ago, Purdue Pete said:

Sounds like they got it right.  R ball at the spot if the recovery. 

Score one for the good guys.

[Purdue Pete]

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

Score one for the good guys.

So does the call change if the dlineman had been beyond the LOS?  Does the call change had the ball been recovered beyond the LOS?

[Bobref]

Touching of the kick by an R player behind the LOS is ignored, like it never happened. If R touches the kick beyond the LOS, and K recovers it, it’s a 1st and 10 for K at the spot of recovery. Anytime R is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the LOS, the team in possession at the end of the down is going to have 1st and 10.

[Purdue Pete]

53 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Touching of the kick by an R player behind the LOS is ignored, like it never happened. If R touches the kick beyond the LOS, and K recovers it, it’s a 1st and 10 for K at the spot of recovery. Anytime R is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the LOS, the team in possession at the end of the down is going to have 1st and 10.

Thanks for the explanation. 

[JustRules]

5 hours ago, Bobref said:

Touching of the kick by an R player behind the LOS is ignored, like it never happened. If R touches the kick beyond the LOS, and K recovers it, it’s a 1st and 10 for K at the spot of recovery. Anytime R is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the LOS, the team in possession at the end of the down is going to have 1st and 10.

Just to add some fun to this, if the ball is recovered behind the neutral zone after being touched by R beyond the neutral zone, K still has all their original options. They can run, pass, or kick the ball. If they run or pass it will still be their ball on the next down because of the touching by R beyond the neutral zone (assuming no other change of possession happens). For example, if the person who recovers throws a pass that is incomplete, it will be 1st and 10 for K at the previous spot! This is assuming the extremely unlikely scenario where K doesn't have ineligible linemen downfield and the pass is thrown beyond the neutral zone. If that happens R would accept the penalty enforced 5 yards from the previous spot and replay 4th down.

This is often discussed and debated among officials and a good rules quiz question but extremely unlikely to occur.

[Bobref]

10 minutes ago, JustRules said:

This is often discussed and debated among officials and a good rules quiz question but extremely unlikely to occur.

But if it does ... we're all over it!

[Huge Football Fan]

5 hours ago, JustRules said:

Just to add some fun to this, if the ball is recovered behind the neutral zone after being touched by R beyond the neutral zone, K still has all their original options. They can run, pass, or kick the ball. If they run or pass it will still be their ball on the next down because of the touching by R beyond the neutral zone (assuming no other change of possession happens). For example, if the person who recovers throws a pass that is incomplete, it will be 1st and 10 for K at the previous spot! This is assuming the extremely unlikely scenario where K doesn't have ineligible linemen downfield and the pass is thrown beyond the neutral zone. If that happens R would accept the penalty enforced 5 yards from the previous spot and replay 4th down.

This is often discussed and debated among officials and a good rules quiz question but extremely unlikely to occur.

I don’t like the “if touched my R part” without clarifying. If R touches beyond the Los  K recovers the kick behind the LOS they can do whatever they want still. If K recovers the kick behind the Los they can still do all of the above but need to reach the like to gain

Edited September 28, 2020 by Huge Football Fan

[Bobref]

5 hours ago, Huge Football Fan said:

I don’t like the “if touched my R part” without clarifying. If R touches beyond the Los  K recovers the kick behind the LOS they can do whatever they want still. If K recovers the kick behind the Los they can still do all of the above but need to reach the like to gain

One more time. If R is the first to touch the kick beyond the LOS, the next down is 1st down for whichever team has the ball when the play is over. Touching by R beyond the LOS breaks the continuity of downs. K does not have to reach the line to gain, regardless of where they recover the kick, if R touched it beyond the LOS first.

[JustRules]

8 hours ago, Bobref said:

One more time. If R is the first to touch the kick beyond the LOS, the next down is 1st down for whichever team has the ball when the play is over. Touching by R beyond the LOS breaks the continuity of downs. K does not have to reach the line to gain, regardless of where they recover the kick, if R touched it beyond the LOS first.

Thank you Bob! Imagine this scenario. K 4th and 25 from the K28. The ball is topped by R47 just after it leaves the kicker's leg. R21 sees it coming down at the K33 and attempts to field it. He muffs it and the ball bounds back to the K7 where it is recovered by the kicker. I don't think the R coach is going to be too happy when he finds out it's K's ball 1st and 10 at the K7. You have a kick touched by R beyond the NZ (I made it well beyond to avoid any confusion with the expanded NZ) and recovered by K.

[Bobref]

56 minutes ago, JustRules said:

Thank you Bob! Imagine this scenario. K 4th and 25 from the K28. The ball is topped by R47 just after it leaves the kicker's leg. R21 sees it coming down at the K33 and attempts to field it. He muffs it and the ball bounds back to the K7 where it is recovered by the kicker. I don't think the R coach is going to be too happy when he finds out it's K's ball 1st and 10 at the K7. You have a kick touched by R beyond the NZ (I made it well beyond to avoid any confusion with the expanded NZ) and recovered by K.

The variations on this theme are almost endless. Take your scenario and, instead of just recovering it at the K 7, the would-be kicker picks it up and runs to the K 20 where he throws a forward pass which is (a) complete to K6 who is downed inbounds at the K 41, or (b) incomplete. What's the result of the play and the clock status?

[JustRules]

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

The variations on this theme are almost endless. Take your scenario and, instead of just recovering it at the K 7, the would-be kicker picks it up and runs to the K 20 where he throws a forward pass which is (a) complete to K6 who is downed inbounds at the K 41, or (b) incomplete. What's the result of the play and the clock status?

Exactly! In (a) it's 1st and 10 for K at the K41 and (b) 1st and 10 for K at the K28 (previous spot). It would be almost impossible for either to happen though where there weren't ineligible receivers downfield. If the pass itself was first touched beyond the NZ you'll have a flag. I believe you would have a 5 yard penalty from the previous spot and replay the down. 4th and 30 from the K23.

[Bobref]

8 minutes ago, JustRules said:

Exactly! In (a) it's 1st and 10 for K at the K41 and (b) 1st and 10 for K at the K28 (previous spot). It would be almost impossible for either to happen though where there weren't ineligible receivers downfield. If the pass itself was first touched beyond the NZ you'll have a flag. I believe you would have a 5 yard penalty from the previous spot and replay the down. 4th and 30 from the K23.

And if the pass never goes beyond the NZ?

[JustRules]

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

And if the pass never goes beyond the NZ?

Then you are fine! Just another strange variation of this play. It's why it's so important to understand the what of the rules and then be able to piece it together on the field so you know how to rule.

[Purdue Pete]

16 hours ago, JustRules said:

Then you are fine! Just another strange variation of this play. It's why it's so important to understand the what of the rules and then be able to piece it together on the field so you know how to rule.

And the fans in the stands cheer politely as they accept the call on the field. 🙂

[JustRules]

3 hours ago, Purdue Pete said:

And the fans in the stands cheer politely as they accept the call on the field. 🙂

Since we are rarely mic'd up for HS games you are often left in the dark on what happened on some plays. There are times we really wish we had a mic to explain what happened.

[Impartial_Observer]

On 9/29/2020 at 2:52 PM, JustRules said:

Since we are rarely mic'd up for HS games you are often left in the dark on what happened on some plays. There are times we really wish we had a mic to explain what happened.

Needed one last night. Pre-planned fake punt the coach told us about pre-game. Kicker is running to his left looked to me like he panicked and does some kind of half ass kick on the run with a potential tackler committed to tackling him. We all know where this is headed. The coach completely understood, but boy the fans couldn’t believe I missed that one right in front of me.