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How did New Pal Slip So Quickly?


Guest DT

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2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Yes.  My criteria is that if any team is 35+ points ahead of it's opponent at the end of the game then it ran up the score.  For several years I tracked such behavior in a spreadsheet and posted a popular weekly "Let's run up the score!" thread here on the GID containing the relevant information.

 

We know...

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On 10/2/2020 at 1:24 PM, DT said:

Is the MV transfer going to go down in history as one of the all time greats in Indiana High School Football?

Never once have I said that NP recruited CS.  Frankly, I put the blame for this entire situation on Bobby Cox and the IHSAA.  They were asleep at the wheel.  

They should have disallowed the transfer on the grounds that it would disrupt the competitive balance within the conference, within the class and within the entire state, which it did. It doesnt take a rocket science to combine the New Pal of 2018 plus the addition of the states likely new all time rushing and scoring champion to figure out what the end result will be.

 

As you've repeatedly done over the years, you assume high school football (which is community and education-based) is college football (where teams are 100% recruited) or pro football (where a draft and salary cap maintain competitive balance). 

The IHSAA's job is not to "maintain competitive balance." That is next to impossible in high school athletics, because one community might have better resources than another. Its job is to run state tournaments, oversee rules, license officials and allow opportunities for education-based teams to compete with each other. The only thing it can really do is make adjustments to the class system (which it has, with the splitting of 5A into two 32-team classes and the success factor). It is always going to allow a student to play unless there is a bona-fide reason the transfer was for athletic reasons (and usually not accompanied by a change of residence) and even then, there is an independent review board that can veto a decision of limited or no eligibility. 

DT's original throw-it-against-the-wall ridiculous point (that NP football is somehow "slipping quickly" because it's 5-1 in a rebuilding year, with the only blemish a 13-point road loss to a 7-0 senior-laden team in a rivalry game, despite dealing with an incredible number of injuries) was rebuffed, so he pivots to his claiming NP's success is based on transfers, which is also ridiculous. People are going to move into high-growth areas, and some of those people might be good football players. New Palestine's success begins with good coaching, an incredible youth league that develops players, and tremendous community support. Period. 

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On 10/2/2020 at 1:59 PM, DT said:

I agree with your comment regarding conference affiliation.  Perhaps the NP athletic department has outgrown the HHC and needs a bigger sandbox.  There are several potential options, including Mid State, Circle City, Conference Indiana.   My guess is NP would rather stay and dominate in the HHC than stretch itself in a more competitive league.  To each their own.  

Along with Greenwood, NP would be - by far - the smallest school in the Mid-State and would be the smallest school in Conference Indiana, while also being an hour-plus drive from every school in the league besides Southport. While NP is growing, it's not quite to that size/level yet in most sports. Remember, there are 19 other varsity sports to think about. You don't just make a move for football. It affects basketball, baseball, soccer, volleyball, et al. NP is a strong cultural fit in the HHC and sits in the middle of the conference enrollment-wise. 

NP does play a lot of Mid-State schools in most sports, but has no natural rivals there as it does in the HHC with MV/G-C/PH. It would have nothing in common with any CI school. 

Circle City is a private school conference. NP doesn't exactly fit that profile. 

 

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5 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

The IHSAA's job is not to "maintain competitive balance." That is next to impossible in high school athletics, because one community might have better resources than another.

Please define "resources".   We have heard time and time again how most of the major P/P's, that have cases full of state title trophies, almost always have meager resources when compared to their government school counterparts. 

What was the Success Factor if not a play by the IHSAA to maintain some semblance of competitive balance withing it's still primarily enrollment based class system?

And open enrollment legislation virtually neutered the IHSAA in regards to properly policing transfers. 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

As you've repeatedly done over the years, you assume high school football (which is community and education-based) is college football (where teams are 100% recruited) or pro football (where a draft and salary cap maintain competitive balance). 

The IHSAA's job is not to "maintain competitive balance." That is next to impossible in high school athletics, because one community might have better resources than another. Its job is to run state tournaments, oversee rules, license officials and allow opportunities for education-based teams to compete with each other. The only thing it can really do is make adjustments to the class system (which it has, with the splitting of 5A into two 32-team classes and the success factor). It is always going to allow a student to play unless there is a bona-fide reason the transfer was for athletic reasons (and usually not accompanied by a change of residence) and even then, there is an independent review board that can veto a decision of limited or no eligibility. 

DT's original throw-it-against-the-wall ridiculous point (that NP football is somehow "slipping quickly" because it's 5-1 in a rebuilding year, with the only blemish a 13-point road loss to a 7-0 senior-laden team in a rivalry game, despite dealing with an incredible number of injuries) was rebuffed, so he pivots to his claiming NP's success is based on transfers, which is also ridiculous. People are going to move into high-growth areas, and some of those people might be good football players. New Palestine's success begins with good coaching, an incredible youth league that develops players, and tremendous community support. Period. 

If the IHSAA had no involvement with the maintenance of competitive balance in high school sports, it would have no need to create the current multi sport class structure, nor would it have ever needed to address the issues of pp dominance and the ensuing implementation of the Multiplier/Success Factor.

The 5A split was just anothjer mechanism used to by the IHSAA to further enhance balance for a select group of high enrollment schools that received zero, or negative benefit from the original 5 class structure.

The IHSAA has been working on competitive balance for 40 years, starting with the original 3 class playoffs in the mid 70s, to the cluster system, to the expansion to 4, 5 and then 6 classes.  Your statement that "the IHSAAs job is not to maintain competitive balance " is ridiculous and frankly ignorant coming from someone with your background.

Every movement has a starting point, a flash point that breeds followers and copycats.  I do not want to see great game changing athletes like CS, who also happened to be older than 99% of the other kids playing high school football during his senior season, have free reign to be allowed to attach themselves to whichever program they feel like attending.  You are living in the 70s and 80s.  Kids are different today.  Parents are spending thousands and thousands of dollars to send kids to special camps, get specialized training, and work with and meet other elite players and coaches who are all climbing the same ladder.  

Brownsburg had 7 players on the Indiana Top 40 List for the Class of 2021.  Do you really think that BB has 7 of the Top 40 players in the state on their roster, or did many of those kids "buy" their way on to that list thru constant camp participation, funded by overly eager parents looking for a 4 year full ride for their athletic prodigy?

Would it be good for The MIC if suddenly all the top players from Pike and Lawrence decided to transfer to Center Grove to be a part of the CG football machine?

New Pal may turn out to be a 5 year flash in the pan.  I doubt it, but the two year stretch they enjoyed came at the expense of many other schools who were rolled over as a result of New Pals extraordinary abundance of talent, both homegrown and imported.  The IHSAA has a great deal of experience in dealing with this on the hardwood.   The CS experience may be an precursor of what is to come on the gridiron.  Better to deal with it and mitigate the downside consequences before than after the fact.

 

 

 

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It's not the IHSAA's job to maintain competitive balance, read its by-laws. Besides there being no reference to "competitive balance," it clearly is more devoted to being an entity to exist so member schools, student participants, and officials have a body to help organize and report to, so they all have an intermediary organization to communicate through. The IHSAA's by-laws are written in a much more "reactive" manner than "proactive."

It's quite different than the NCAA, or especially professional leagues like the NFL.

 

 

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On 10/3/2020 at 8:10 AM, FastpacedO said:

Because the Golden Bears defense didn't keep their opponent from scoring 2 more times.

Bored Married With Children GIF

Scored 4 TDs for the Polk High Dots.  You would have to put up at least, assuming all point extras were made/converted, 63 points.

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23 hours ago, hhpatriot04 said:

It's not the IHSAA's job to maintain competitive balance, read its by-laws.

Yet for some strange reason they do exactly that.

Why was the long-time traditional one-class basketball tournament,  one of the best athletic events in the nation,  split out to four enrollment-based classes?  It sure as heck wasn't to increase attendance.   No, it was mostly because smaller schools finally got sick and tired of feeding into sectionals where they inevitably ran into the buzzsaw of the larger, more powerful school. See places like Kokomo for prime examples.    And in this age of "Johnny needs a trophy" and "all kids are special"  what better way to feed that than to increase the number of trophies?   AKA change the competitive balance of the game.

Edited by Muda69
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On 10/3/2020 at 8:45 PM, Muda69 said:

Please define "resources".   We have heard time and time again how most of the major P/P's, that have cases full of state title trophies, almost always have meager resources when compared to their government school counterparts. 

What was the Success Factor if not a play by the IHSAA to maintain some semblance of competitive balance withing it's still primarily enrollment based class system?

And open enrollment legislation virtually neutered the IHSAA in regards to properly policing transfers. 

 

 

 

That is what they will tell you...but the most important resource, the quality human resource, they have a disproportionately higher amount of when compared to their public counterparts of equal "enrollment".  Quality humans win football games.

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18 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Yet for some strange reason they do exactly that.

Why was the long-time traditional one-class basketball tournament,  one of the best athletic events in the nation,  split out to four enrollment-based classes?  It sure as heck wasn't to increase attendance.   No, it was mostly because smaller schools finally got sick and tired of feeding into sectionals where they inevitably ran into the buzzsaw of the larger, more powerful school. See places like Kokomo for prime examples.    And in this age of "Johnny needs a trophy" and "all kids are special"  what better way to feed that than to increase the number of trophies?   AKA change the competitive balance of the game.

But it's not the IHSAA pushing the reforms, we which I took to be @crimsonace1s point. The reorganization of tournaments has been a response to coaches' associations and ADs/principals. The IHSAA has no such independent agenda.

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44 minutes ago, southend said:

That’s because it’s in their bylaws 👍😉

Yes, acting on the interests of the member schools... So I wouldn't call it the job of the IHSAA to maintain competitive balance, again they're reactive not proactive. It's nuanced, but an important difference.

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5 hours ago, hhpatriot04 said:

But it's not the IHSAA pushing the reforms, we which I took to be @crimsonace1s point. The reorganization of tournaments has been a response to coaches' associations and ADs/principals. The IHSAA has no such independent agenda.

Yet the IHSAA board had ultimately approve such competitive balances reforms, did they not?  So the end result is the same, no matter what the IHSAA by-laws state.  If anything such by-laws become nothing more than CYA jargon for the IHSAA to hide behind should things go south;  "Our by-laws say we don't recommend/advocate these kind of changes,  but our membership insisted on it so if really isn't our fault."

 

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2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Yet the IHSAA board had ultimately approve such competitive balances reforms, did they not?  So the end result is the same, no matter what the IHSAA by-laws state.  If anything such by-laws become nothing more than CYA jargon for the IHSAA to hide behind should things go south;  "Our by-laws say we don't recommend/advocate these kind of changes,  but our membership insisted on it so if really isn't our fault."

 

The premise that the ihsaa has no involvement or influence on competitive balance is preposterous.  One could argue that the concept guides all of their principles and decision making

 

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3 minutes ago, DT said:

The premise that the ihsaa has no involvement or influence on competitive balance is preposterous.  One could argue that the concept guides all of their principles and decision making

 

So what’s your “new” plan?

 

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56 minutes ago, DT said:

The premise that the ihsaa has no involvement or influence on competitive balance is preposterous.  One could argue that the concept guides all of their principles and decision making

 

How many coaches in the HHC vetoed or petitioned the IHSAA to not sign off on Spegal's immediate eligibility? The fact that Delta, the school he transferred from, signed off on his transfer all but ensured the IHSAA wasn't going to get involved. The IHSAA exists to play mediator when needed. This clearly wasn't an issue that needed addressed. 

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Happy to see Coach Nolting get a win last week against Yorktown. He has that program on the upswing and they are still young this year. HHC football is getting better across the board and it's great to see. Excited for the opportunity to play an improved New Castle team this week! 

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3 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

How many coaches in the HHC vetoed or petitioned the IHSAA to not sign off on Spegal's immediate eligibility? The fact that Delta, the school he transferred from, signed off on his transfer all but ensured the IHSAA wasn't going to get involved. The IHSAA exists to play mediator when needed. This clearly wasn't an issue that needed addressed. 

Given the run that NP was on, do you rteally think the other 7 HHC head coaches would have given their endorsement to this transfer?  Of course they wouldnt.  They would have known exactly what was coming their way, which was a much more powerful and dominant NP program

And coaches arent given the option to veto transfers.  Most are much too macho and ego driven to throw up the red flag on such an issue.  This is why this should fall under the purveyence of the primary governing body, the IHSAA.

 

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30 minutes ago, DT said:

Most are much too macho and ego driven to throw up the red flag on such an issue.

Small school coaches/AD's had no problem raising hell about class basketball....The IHSAA isn't going to act on anything unless it receives a ton of backlash from coaches or representatives from member schools. The IHSAA exists to mediate, not dictate. I'm guessing the Spegal transfer wasn't met with much scorn.

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