jets Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 Don't post much on here. Enjoying reading about different teams/conferences. If there is one subject that I would qualify myself as "passionate" about - it is SEEDING the Sectionals. I just don't get it (?) as to why they are NOT. I think almost every person I've come across says "Ya, that would make a lot of sense" or "Ya I'd like to see that get done" SOOOOOO - what is the IHSAA drawback to it?? What are their reasonings?? 1. It doesn't have the coaches support?? (I find that hard to believe) 2. It's going to lead to a qualification process?? (It doesn't HAVE to) I've honestly yet to hear a good argument against it..... "Oh it'd be too hard to figure out if teams don't play each other and/or different conferences" - BOGUS- you can/wrestling coaches do it all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilELee Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 Last night I saw the first decent argument against it: If all the good games are on the same night, you can only go to one! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US31 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 I posted this in the other thread....but the matchups for 6A sectionals ened up pretty close to how you'd seed them. Blind squirrels and nuts they would say....😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gipper Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 13 minutes ago, US31 said: I posted this in the other thread....but the matchups for 6A sectionals ened up pretty close to how you'd seed them. Blind squirrels and nuts they would say....😂 I also saw Lafayette Jeff will not be playing Merrillville in the opening round. Lowell and Hobart could also meet up in the final of Sectional 17. But I also saw that South Newton drew a bye a could potentially face 1-5 (or 6, who cares at this point?) West Central in the Second Round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRules Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 First, my preference would be a qualifying tournament with seeding. It's the most exciting approach for a tournament. But I also understand why it hasn't happened yet. The random draw doesn't create any more blowouts than seeding would You can have two 3-win teams playing in the first round while two 8-win teams also play in the first round. Both games could be close. But if the 8-win teams play the 3-win teams both are likely blowouts. The 8-win winner could play the 3-win winner in the sectional final in a blowout, but that's one fewer blowout than the current system. The other reason is most coaches and ADs realize they could be that 2 or 3-win team and hoping to draw another 2 or 3-win team in the first round and inject life into their program with a tournament win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiting89 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 Statewide playoff tourney like Illinois the most intriguing option Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footballer_02 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Gipper said: I also saw Lafayette Jeff will not be playing Merrillville in the opening round. Lowell and Hobart could also meet up in the final of Sectional 17. But I also saw that South Newton drew a bye a could potentially face 1-5 (or 6, who cares at this point?) West Central in the Second Round. Not that it really matters, but South Newton would meet the winner of Winamac/South Central, not West Central. Edited October 9, 2020 by footballer_02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 1 hour ago, jets said: 2. It's going to lead to a qualification process?? (It doesn't HAVE to) The unintended consequences of seeding would make the first round of the playoffs redundant to the point where the next logical step is a qualifier. The IHSAA doesn't want that. If the sectionals were seeded appropriately, 85-90% of the opening round games statewide would result in 50-60 point blowouts. That is the definition of redundant. It's unnecessary and doesn't do anybody any good. The only way the IHSAA today can justify why a team that has gone 0-9 in the regular season surrendering 500+ points is allowed to play again is because of the all-in, blind draw. There's an off-chance that an 0-9 team meets another 0-9 team and a blowout is avoided. If you seeded the sectionals, the next and only logical move would be to eliminate the field in half after the end of the regular season. The IHSAA isn't ready for that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLCTigerFan07 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: The unintended consequences of seeding would make the first round of the playoffs redundant to the point where the next logical step is a qualifier. The IHSAA doesn't want that. If the sectionals were seeded appropriately, 85-90% of the opening round games statewide would result in 50-60 point blowouts. That is the definition of redundant. It's unnecessary and doesn't do anybody any good. The only way the IHSAA today can justify why a team that has gone 0-9 in the regular season surrendering 500+ points is allowed to play again is because of the all-in, blind draw. There's an off-chance that an 0-9 team meets another 0-9 team and a blowout is avoided. If you seeded the sectionals, the next and only logical move would be to eliminate the field in half after the end of the regular season. The IHSAA isn't ready for that. I'm not sure I agree with this. I don't see any reason why seeding would lead to playoff qualifications in Indiana. This is because the state has just the right amount of teams playing football to host a 5 or 6 round playoff. No reason why seeding an all-in tournament can't be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementbias Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: The unintended consequences of seeding would make the first round of the playoffs redundant to the point where the next logical step is a qualifier. The IHSAA doesn't want that. If the sectionals were seeded appropriately, 85-90% of the opening round games statewide would result in 50-60 point blowouts. That is the definition of redundant. It's unnecessary and doesn't do anybody any good. The only way the IHSAA today can justify why a team that has gone 0-9 in the regular season surrendering 500+ points is allowed to play again is because of the all-in, blind draw. There's an off-chance that an 0-9 team meets another 0-9 team and a blowout is avoided. If you seeded the sectionals, the next and only logical move would be to eliminate the field in half after the end of the regular season. The IHSAA isn't ready for that. I'm for seeding and an all-in format to fully disclose. I think the best method would be to seed the top 4 teams in an 7 to 8 team sectional and top 2 in a 4 to 5 team sectional and then random draw the bottom 3-4 or 2-3. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtut Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 The number 1 and 2 teams in Sectional 40,Tell City and Linton, according to Sagaran, meet in the first round at Tell City. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said: I'm not sure I agree with this. I don't see any reason why seeding would lead to playoff qualifications in Indiana. This is because the state has just the right amount of teams playing football to host a 5 or 6 round playoff. No reason why seeding an all-in tournament can't be done. Because at what point does it become practical to let the IHSAA allow unnecessary 60-70 point blowouts in a "postseason" game? There's 48 sectionals in this state. If you pitted 1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7 in all sectionals in classes 1A-4A, you would be looking at colossal blowouts with running clocks at half time in just about every one of those games. What purpose does that serve anyone. Why not just cut the field in half at the end of the regular season and let 1 play 4 and 2 play 3 in more competitive sectional format. I mean yes, you are theoretically correct, you could do seeding and not go to a qualification format...but at the expense of what? This is the reason the IHSAA hasn't, and won't go to seeding, to try and avoid as many blowouts as possible with a "blind draw" as justification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jets Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 57 minutes ago, JustRules said: First, my preference would be a qualifying tournament with seeding. It's the most exciting approach for a tournament. But I also understand why it hasn't happened yet. The random draw doesn't create any more blowouts than seeding would You can have two 3-win teams playing in the first round while two 8-win teams also play in the first round. Both games could be close. But if the 8-win teams play the 3-win teams both are likely blowouts. The 8-win winner could play the 3-win winner in the sectional final in a blowout, but that's one fewer blowout than the current system. The other reason is most coaches and ADs realize they could be that 2 or 3-win team and hoping to draw another 2 or 3-win team in the first round and inject life into their program with a tournament win. So your argument AGAINST seeding is it leads to less blowouts?? Ok, tell that to the 8-1 team playing a 9-0 team first round. 21 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: The unintended consequences of seeding would make the first round of the playoffs redundant to the point where the next logical step is a qualifier. The IHSAA doesn't want that. If the sectionals were seeded appropriately, 85-90% of the opening round games statewide would result in 50-60 point blowouts. That is the definition of redundant. It's unnecessary and doesn't do anybody any good. The only way the IHSAA today can justify why a team that has gone 0-9 in the regular season surrendering 500+ points is allowed to play again is because of the all-in, blind draw. There's an off-chance that an 0-9 team meets another 0-9 team and a blowout is avoided. If you seeded the sectionals, the next and only logical move would be to eliminate the field in half after the end of the regular season. The IHSAA isn't ready for that. Again - it doesn't HAVE to lead to a qualification. People forget that a 4 v. 5 game, 3 v. 6, heck whatever seeded game can still be very competitive. You act like it will be a week of 60 to whatever scores. It won't. What I'm trying to say is - I don't think those are strong enough points to keep from vastly improving our tourney. I really think the IHSAA is just stubborn and "by gawd that's the way we've always done it" (the WORST excuse for anything) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, jets said: So your argument AGAINST seeding is it leads to less blowouts?? Ok, tell that to the 8-1 team playing a 9-0 team first round. An 8-1 team should NEVER be playing a 9-0 team in the first round the same way an 0-9 team has no business being in a playoff to begin with. A playoff qualification format (with subsequent seeding) solves both those issues. I don't see what the problem is? Edited October 9, 2020 by Footballking16 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 14 minutes ago, jets said: What I'm trying to say is - I don't think those are strong enough points to keep from vastly improving our tourney. I really think the IHSAA is just stubborn and "by gawd that's the way we've always done it" (the WORST excuse for anything) How is letting a 9-0 team play a team that's 0-9 whom they already beat by 70 points earlier in the year exactly improving the tournament? You want to improve the tournament? Force teams to qualify and seed accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementbias Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 Just now, Footballking16 said: How is letting a 9-0 team play a team that's 0-9 whom they already beat by 70 points earlier in the year exactly improving the tournament? You want to improve the tournament? Force teams to qualify and seed accordingly. I could see your point if they had a cluster system where everyone in each sectional played one another. However, let's pretend we're in the current format & the SAC had a MIC like year and Luers goes 0-9 but only loses each game by 7 or less. That Luers team would probably beat all 7 other sectional opponents by double digits, including say a 9-0 Bluffton squad. Far fetched, but just one example that I hate to see qualifying like Ohio does (except this year due to Covid). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Basementbias said: I could see your point if they had a cluster system where everyone in each sectional played one another. However, let's pretend we're in the current format & the SAC had a MIC like year and Luers goes 0-9 but only loses each game by 7 or less. That Luers team would probably beat all 7 other sectional opponents by double digits, including say a 9-0 Bluffton squad. Far fetched, but just one example that I hate to see qualifying like Ohio does (except this year due to Covid). There's absolutely zero way that any playoff qualification method or rating system would be based solely on W-L record. It would be a combination of multiple factors including SoS, opponents W-L record, opponent SoS, etc. I'd have a hard time believing that even a winless Luers team that played a bunch of 4A and 5A schools competitive week in and week out wouldn't still be a top half rated 2A team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementbias Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: There's absolutely zero way that any playoff qualification method or rating system would be based solely on W-L record. It would be a combination of multiple factors including SoS, opponents W-L record, opponent SoS, etc. I'd have a hard time believing that even a winless Luers team that played a bunch of 4A and 5A schools competitive week in and week out wouldn't still be a top half rated 2A team. True, but say that 9-0 Bluffton team is considered not to be in the top half due to a poor ACAC & non conference opponent schedule. I've saw rare instances that this was the case in Ohio were 9-0 Bluffton mentioned before is not in the tournament due to opponents records & SOS. In a few of those cases, those teams had 9 conference games, so that is why the mighty MAC of small Ohio HS football chose not to play a full conference schedule even though they could, because they feared that happening to them. Edited October 9, 2020 by Basementbias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Basementbias said: True, but say that 9-0 Bluffton team is considered not to be in the top half due to a poor ACAC & non conference opponent schedule. I've saw rare instances that this was the case in Ohio were 9-0 Bluffton mentioned before is not in the tournament due to opponents records & SOS. In a few of those cases, those teams had 9 conference games, so that is why the might MAC of small Ohio HS football chose not to play a full conference schedule even though they could, because they feared that happening to them. Again, extreme outliers that are exactly that, outliers. Ohio also has 2x as many high schools playing football schools than the state of Indiana. I can hardly envision a scenario where a 9-0 team in Indiana isn't at least one of the 32 top rated schools in their respective class regardless of the schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementbias Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 Just now, Footballking16 said: Again, extreme outliers that are exactly that, outliers. Ohio also has 2x as many high schools playing football schools than the state of Indiana. I can hardly envision a scenario where a 9-0 team in Indiana isn't at least one of the 32 top rated schools in their respective class regardless of the schedule. Outliers yes, but outliers do happen is my point. I don't even want that to be a possibility. Keep it all-in and compromise to seed the top half of the teams in each sectional and random draw the bottom half teams. Hopefully the ping pong balls go right and reduce the blowouts that way but still recognize the top tier teams having great regular seasons. You'd have to come up with a weighted formula based on W-L, SOS, & opponent SOS like you mentioned before to determine the seeded teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdue Pete Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 34 minutes ago, kingtut said: The number 1 and 2 teams in Sectional 40,Tell City and Linton, according to Sagaran, meet in the first round at Tell City. Same in 19... Leo, Northridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWFan Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Basementbias said: Outliers yes, but outliers do happen is my point. I don't even want that to be a possibility. Keep it all-in and compromise to seed the top half of the teams in each sectional and random draw the bottom half teams. Hopefully the ping pong balls go right and reduce the blowouts that way but still recognize the top tier teams having great regular seasons. You'd have to come up with a weighted formula based on W-L, SOS, & opponent SOS like you mentioned before to determine the seeded teams. I would even just say seed top 2 and blind draw the rest. If its about preserving the best match up to the end then they should get there. If #1 is upset by #3 in the first round then they just weren't as good as paper said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdue Pete Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: Again, extreme outliers that are exactly that, outliers. Ohio also has 2x as many high schools playing football schools than the state of Indiana. I can hardly envision a scenario where a 9-0 team in Indiana isn't at least one of the 32 top rated schools in their respective class regardless of the schedule. If they play bluffton’s schedule they might be (maybe should be) left out. They went and picked up the... case in point they picked up prairie heights in place of the jets tonight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, Purdue Pete said: If they play bluffton’s schedule they might be (maybe should be) left out. They went and picked up the... case in point they picked up prairie heights in place of the jets tonight This season in general is an outlier... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gipper Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 1 hour ago, footballer_02 said: Not that it really matters, but South Newton would meet the winner of Winamac/South Central, not West Central. My bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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