Guest DT Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Covid has had a devastating and long term impact on many high school athletic programs across the state. Unfortunately, those who could least afford to deal with the impact of Covid are being hit the hardest, and their ability to compete in this brave new world has been compromised. Conversely, wealthy school districts and PPs have the deep pockets and overall resources to navigate the pandemic and come out stronger on the other side. Given the events of the past 12 months and the outcomes that we have seen playod out on the athletic fields across the state, its time for The IHSAA to step back in and revisit the issue of competitive balance between and amongst its member institutions. One of COVIDS unintended consequences has been to further the competitive gap between the haves and the have nots, taking an ever dwindling number of post season contenders and further reducing that once again. Two findamental changes are needed to further addrewss the widening gulf that is separating the haves from the have nots, especiually in high cost sports such as football. 1. Roll back the Success Factor to include Indiana Public Schools only. 2. Institute the Mandatory 2.0 PP Multiplier, whereas all PP schools will have their actual enrollments multiplied by "2" to achieve class designation. We are seeing a new period of emerging PP dominance, due primarily to the PPs ability to better manage and manuever their way thru the COVID Pandemic. Most observers will agree that common sense would dictate that PP football programs generally play "up" during the regular season and "down" during the post season. This reality defies all good logic and common sense, and clearly has a negative overall impact on competitive balance within the classes. Under this new proposal, PPs will accept their new 2.0 Multiplied Classification, or have the option to contract their football program. There are several throughout the state that might seriously consider contraction. Below is a recap of the new enrollment numbers to be used for classification purposes : Roncalli 1188/2376 6A Cathedral 1099/2198 6A Dwenger 1015/2030 6A SB St Joe 857/1714 5A Brebeuf 791/1582 5A Guerin 761/1522 5A Chatard 714/1428 4A Marian 645/1290 4A Ev Memorial 609/1218 4A Ritter 566/1132 4A Luers 542/1084 4A Mater Dei 497/994 4A Heritage Christian 462/924 4A Bishop Noll 460/920 4A (Contract) Scecina 427/854 4A Andrean 414/828 4A Covenent Christian 365/730 3A LCC 287/574 3A Ind Lutheran 225/450 2A Traders Point Christian 128/256 (Auto minimum 1 class bump) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobref Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, DT said: Covid has had a devastating and long term impact on many high school athletic programs across the state. Your initial premise is, if not flawed, at least premature. Pretty hard to design a fix to address “long term impact” when we are not even through the season. Describe the “long term impact” ... and the crystal ball you used to foresee it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshiners Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bobref said: Your initial premise is, if not flawed, at least premature. Pretty hard to design a fix to address “long term impact” when we are not even through the season. Describe the “long term impact” ... and the crystal ball you used to foresee it. We are already starting to see admins and ADs take a more conservative approach relative to the operation of their football programs. A few examples : * Many schools chose not to play in lieu of rescheduling when rescheduling was indeed an option. * Several schools shut ther programs down early due to an overabundance of caution. Not arguing their logic, just pointing out the ultra conservative nature of decision making. I believe this type of decision making will continue going forward. * Many are no longer considering longer road trips. * The real litmus test will come when ADs and coaches begin to see how COVID has reset and negatively impacted competitive balance across the classes. New 2021-22 athletic budgets will likely be negatively impacted by COVID related issues, impacting decision making at all levels. Choices will have to be made. Some will consider contraction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobref Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, DT said: We are already starting to see admins and ADs take a more conservative approach relative to the operation of their football programs. A few examples : * Many schools chose not to play in lieu of rescheduling when rescheduling was indeed an option. * Several schools shut ther programs down early due to an overabundance of caution. Not arguing their logic, just pointing out the ultra conservative nature of decision making. I believe this type of decision making will continue going forward. * Many are no longer considering longer road trips. * The real litmus test will come when ADs and coaches begin to see how COVID has reset and negatively impacted competitive balance across the classes. New 2021-22 athletic budgets will likely be negatively impacted by COVID related issues, impacting decision making at all levels. Choices will have to be made. Some will consider contraction. No argument with any of that ... except it doesn’t qualify as long term ... yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Bobref said: No argument with any of that ... except it doesn’t qualify as long term ... yet. You dont have to look any further than down the road a little bit to Hammond and East Chicago. The Pandemic decimated both school corporations athletic programs in 2020 It may take years for both to recover competitively. And then look at Andrean. They have cruised through unscathed by COVID, and are good enough to compete for titles up to and including 4A this year. Frankly, Andrean could give Valpo a run and ight even make it to 5A semi state given the chance. The Regions best (Andrean) have gotten stronger and its worst (Hammond and EC) have fallen further behind. 7 minutes ago, Bobref said: No argument with any of that ... except it doesn’t qualify as long term ... yet. I would not be shocked to see 10-20 schools drop football before next season starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US31 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 13 hours ago, DT said: Several schools shut their programs down early due to an overabundance of caution. Not arguing their logic, just pointing out the ultra conservative nature of decision making. I believe this type of decision making will continue going forward. Abundance means a "large amount of something".....by referring to their level of caution as an OVERabundance I think you are subconsciously arguing that logic #Freud 😇 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, US31 said: Abundance means a "large amount of something".....by referring to their level of caution as an OVERabundance I think you are subconsciously arguing that logic #Freud 😇 https://www.google.com/search?q=overabundence&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS908US908&oq=overabundence&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.4597j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 An "excessive quantity" of caution is being utilized relative to decision making. The term works as intended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 14 hours ago, DT said: Covid has had a devastating and long term impact on many high school athletic programs across the state. Unfortunately, those who could least afford to deal with the impact of Covid are being hit the hardest, and their ability to compete in this brave new world has been compromised. Conversely, wealthy school districts and PPs have the deep pockets and overall resources to navigate the pandemic and come out stronger on the other side. Given the events of the past 12 months and the outcomes that we have seen playod out on the athletic fields across the state, its time for The IHSAA to step back in and revisit the issue of competitive balance between and amongst its member institutions. One of COVIDS unintended consequences has been to further the competitive gap between the haves and the have nots, taking an ever dwindling number of post season contenders and further reducing that once again. Two findamental changes are needed to further addrewss the widening gulf that is separating the haves from the have nots, especiually in high cost sports such as football. 1. Roll back the Success Factor to include Indiana Public Schools only. 2. Institute the Mandatory 2.0 PP Multiplier, whereas all PP schools will have their actual enrollments multiplied by "2" to achieve class designation. We are seeing a new period of emerging PP dominance, due primarily to the PPs ability to better manage and manuever their way thru the COVID Pandemic. Most observers will agree that common sense would dictate that PP football programs generally play "up" during the regular season and "down" during the post season. This reality defies all good logic and common sense, and clearly has a negative overall impact on competitive balance within the classes. Under this new proposal, PPs will accept their new 2.0 Multiplied Classification, or have the option to contract their football program. There are several throughout the state that might seriously consider contraction. Below is a recap of the new enrollment numbers to be used for classification purposes : Roncalli 1188/2376 6A Cathedral 1099/2198 6A Dwenger 1015/2030 6A SB St Joe 857/1714 5A Brebeuf 791/1582 5A Guerin 761/1522 5A Chatard 714/1428 4A Marian 645/1290 4A Ev Memorial 609/1218 4A Ritter 566/1132 4A Luers 542/1084 4A Mater Dei 497/994 4A Heritage Christian 462/924 4A Bishop Noll 460/920 4A (Contract) Scecina 427/854 4A Andrean 414/828 4A Covenent Christian 365/730 3A LCC 287/574 3A Ind Lutheran 225/450 2A Traders Point Christian 128/256 (Auto minimum 1 class bump) I have read that Andrean’s current enrollment is in the 370s. Correct me if I am wrong but that number is approaching 1A. Andrean I believe would dominate 1A football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Spock said: I have read that Andrean’s current enrollment is in the 370s. Correct me if I am wrong but that number is approaching 1A. Andrean I believe would dominate 1A football. Is that what the Andrean people really want? To dominate 1A football? Be the tallest midget in the room? Would Andrean fans, supporters and alumni support a strategy that stocks the schools trophy case with Class 1A championship trophys? Of course not. Andrean will grow, and soon. The school will be relocated to Crown Point and it will quickly grow to 600 plus students. For now, the 59ers keep brawling well above their weight class. And doing quite well along the way https://www.google.com/search?q=overabundence&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS908US908&oq=overabundence&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.4597j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDGiant93 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Sometimes I wonder why I even open these. Oh well. Got me again. 1 1 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said: Sometimes I wonder why I even open these. Oh well. Got me again. Dont you think the 6A tournament has gotten a bit stale? The additions of Roncalli, Cathedral and Dwenger to the field would bring some fresh blood and renew excitement and interest in 6A football. I have no douubt all 3 would upgrade their programs, including roster and staff improvements, as well as additional focus on strength and speed training. I have no doubt you would salivate over the possibility of a Dwenger - Ben Davis 6A title game. Edited November 9, 2020 by DT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 hour ago, US31 said: Abundance means a "large amount of something".....by referring to their level of caution as an OVERabundance I think you are subconsciously arguing that logic #Freud 😇 Irregardless of that ... 😃 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, DT said: Dont you think the 6A tournament has gotten a bit stale? The additions of Roncalli, Cathedral and Dwenger to the field would bring some fresh blood and renew excitement and interest in 6A football. I have no douubt all 3 would upgrade their programs, including roster and staff improvements, as well as additional focus on strength and speed training. I have no doubt you would salivate over the possibility of a Dwenger - Ben Davis 6A title game. Wouldn't it make a whole bunch more sense, especially given your arguments in the past about competitiveness, for the regular 6A folks who don't regularly compete to get a whole bunch better rather than artificially adding others into the mix? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilELee Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, DT said: I have no douubt all 3 would upgrade their programs, including roster and staff improvements I was just talking to the Dwenger coach the other day. I suggested upgrading the roster. He said he would think about it if they move to 6A. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 minute ago, foxbat said: Wouldn't it make a whole bunch more sense, especially given your arguments in the past about competitiveness, for the regular 6A folks who don't regularly compete to get a whole bunch better rather than artificially adding others into the mix? I think we have seen several smaller 6A publics improve to the point where they are mentioned as potential state title contenders. Warsaw Homestead Carroll Merrillville Valparaiso -(likely will bump back up) Laf Jeff Elkhart Westfield These are all programs that have improved significantly over the past 5 years. All have very strong coaching staffs and should continue to improve as long as admin support and coaching continuity remain intact. Note those mentioned are all northern bracket schools. Avon, Brownsburg, Fishers, HSE, North Central, etc, none have proven they can break the Big 4 gridlock in the south. The PPs can push the issue and improve the overall competitive environment in the south with their presence in the tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indian72 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 52 minutes ago, Spock said: I have read that Andrean’s current enrollment is in the 370s. Correct me if I am wrong but that number is approaching 1A. Andrean I believe would dominate 1A football. Their enrollment is dwindling through the past few years. But they are looking at a new high school building in Crown Point at I-65 They have had administration issues that seem to be clearing up bu the cost is still a factor to many Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, DT said: I think we have seen several smaller 6A publics improve to the point where they are mentioned as potential state title contenders. Warsaw Homestead Carroll Merrillville Valparaiso -(likely will bump back up) Laf Jeff Elkhart Westfield These are all programs that have improved significantly over the past 5 years. All have very strong coaching staffs and should continue to improve as long as admin support and coaching continuity remain intact. Note those mentioned are all northern bracket schools. Avon, Brownsburg, Fishers, HSE, North Central, etc, none have proven they can break the Big 4 gridlock in the south. The PPs can push the issue and improve the overall competitive environment in the south with their presence in the tournament. Yet 6A is still stale? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, foxbat said: Yet 6A is still stale? Its getting more interesting, no doubt. We will have another MIC champion again this year. But the North is improving, the HCC had a rough year but they are on the cusp Id love to see the big PPs in on the action. If you want to see the best high school football played at the highest possible level in Indiana, you must involve the big Pps in the 6A tournament. This is how they do it in Ohio. You've got a titanic showdown this week with 2017/2019 Division 1 champ Pickerington Central (Columbus) against historic Catholic powerhouse Cincy St Xavier. Thats the way it should be. Let your very best programs fight it out on the biggest stage. Edited November 9, 2020 by DT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarab527 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Indian72 said: Their enrollment is dwindling through the past few years. But they are looking at a new high school building in Crown Point at I-65 They have had administration issues that seem to be clearing up bu the cost is still a factor to many Enrollment has dropped precipitously. When I graduated in 2015, there were 588 kids at the school, which was already a decrease from the numbers in the 600s just a few years prior. Now there’s barely over 400. Administration issues were definitely a factor, there were 3 different principles during my 4 years at the school, and there was another new principal the next year after I graduated. They’ve got an alumni and former teacher as principal now, however, and he seems to be in it for the long haul. The new building has been a source of great controversy for alumni for various reasons that I won’t get into now. With the uncertainty of the virus and the future of the economy, I’m not sure how smooth the building of the new school will go. And the same economic uncertainty also doesn’t bode well for an enrollment recovery. Also, Marquette High School in Michigan City started offering free bussing to kids in Porter county, which also cut into Andrean’s enrollment. I went to a catholic grade school in porter county, and me and most of my classmates went to Andean, but a lot of the people I went to school with’s younger siblings went to Marquette. Andrean’s enrollment problems look likely to continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Fan Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 18 hours ago, DT said: Covid has had a devastating and long term impact on many high school athletic programs across the state. Unfortunately, those who could least afford to deal with the impact of Covid are being hit the hardest, and their ability to compete in this brave new world has been compromised. Conversely, wealthy school districts and PPs have the deep pockets and overall resources to navigate the pandemic and come out stronger on the other side. Given the events of the past 12 months and the outcomes that we have seen playod out on the athletic fields across the state, its time for The IHSAA to step back in and revisit the issue of competitive balance between and amongst its member institutions. One of COVIDS unintended consequences has been to further the competitive gap between the haves and the have nots, taking an ever dwindling number of post season contenders and further reducing that once again. Two findamental changes are needed to further addrewss the widening gulf that is separating the haves from the have nots, especiually in high cost sports such as football. 1. Roll back the Success Factor to include Indiana Public Schools only. 2. Institute the Mandatory 2.0 PP Multiplier, whereas all PP schools will have their actual enrollments multiplied by "2" to achieve class designation. We are seeing a new period of emerging PP dominance, due primarily to the PPs ability to better manage and manuever their way thru the COVID Pandemic. Most observers will agree that common sense would dictate that PP football programs generally play "up" during the regular season and "down" during the post season. This reality defies all good logic and common sense, and clearly has a negative overall impact on competitive balance within the classes. Under this new proposal, PPs will accept their new 2.0 Multiplied Classification, or have the option to contract their football program. There are several throughout the state that might seriously consider contraction. Below is a recap of the new enrollment numbers to be used for classification purposes : Roncalli 1188/2376 6A Cathedral 1099/2198 6A Dwenger 1015/2030 6A SB St Joe 857/1714 5A Brebeuf 791/1582 5A Guerin 761/1522 5A Chatard 714/1428 4A Marian 645/1290 4A Ev Memorial 609/1218 4A Ritter 566/1132 4A Luers 542/1084 4A Mater Dei 497/994 4A Heritage Christian 462/924 4A Bishop Noll 460/920 4A (Contract) Scecina 427/854 4A Andrean 414/828 4A Covenent Christian 365/730 3A LCC 287/574 3A Ind Lutheran 225/450 2A Traders Point Christian 128/256 (Auto minimum 1 class bump) I have always believed PP schools should play in a class above them. I am with you on this DT. It would be more fair for everyone involved. I believe the succes factor should only be for Private schools. Just another thought in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimeqb Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Why 2.0? I'm curious if you can rationally lay out an argument why 2x instead of 1.25, 1.33, 1.5, 1.67, etc. Heck, why stop at 2x? Let's go to 2.5, 3.0, or how about Pi? Let's implement a multiplier of 3.14159265... we can even put you in charge of the math. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DT Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said: Why 2.0? I'm curious if you can rationally lay out an argument why 2x instead of 1.25, 1.33, 1.5, 1.67, etc. Heck, why stop at 2x? Let's go to 2.5, 3.0, or how about Pi? Let's implement a multiplier of 3.14159265... we can even put you in charge of the math. 1.5 does not achieve the desired objective. 2.0 does. Id rather see the IHSAA go a little too far than not far enough with this initiative. If it becomes too much of a burden for the PPs , they can challenge and push for a rollback. Id like to see the arguments in this thread made by any PP against new class assignement based on The 2.0 Multiplier. Show us where it creates a hardship. Take all factors into consideration. Lets debate it openly and honestly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, DT said: 1.5 does not achieve the desired objective. 2.0 does. Id rather see the IHSAA go a little too far than not far enough with this initiative. If it becomes too much of a burden for the PPs , they can challenge and push for a rollback. Id like to see the arguments in this thread made by any PP against new class assignement based on The 2.0 Multiplier. Show us where it creates a hardship. Take all factors into consideration. Lets debate it openly and honestly. so Guerin and Brebuef should be in 5A but not Chatard? How does that make any sense? The success factor works just fine. Good teams will bump up, others won't. Park Tudor and Bishop Noll playing in the 4A state tournament just because Chatard and Cathedral punch above their weight may be your worst take yet. There's three schools on that list who have dominated their enrollment class the last decade or so; Cathedral, Chatard, and LCC with LCC coming back down to Earth. Take out Chatard and Cathedral, and every one of those P/P's are cyclical just like any other public school. Edited November 9, 2020 by Footballking16 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilELee Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, DT said: 1.5 does not achieve the desired objective. 2.0 does. Id rather see the IHSAA go a little too far than not far enough with this initiative. If it becomes too much of a burden for the PPs , they can challenge and push for a rollback. Id like to see the arguments in this thread made by any PP against new class assignement based on The 2.0 Multiplier. Show us where it creates a hardship. Take all factors into consideration. Lets debate it openly and honestly. What is the desired objective that the success factor doesn't achieve? Should we just cap the number of PP's that can be at LOS any given year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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