Multiplier 2.0 Needed to Level the Playing Field

[psaboy]

6 hours ago, WilELee said:

I was just talking to the Dwenger coach the other day. I suggested upgrading the roster. He said he would think about it if they move to 6A.

How do you upgrade roster, bring in some hired players 

[BTF]

2 hours ago, DT said:

Whats your logic?  Im firm at 2.0   It sends a signal not only to Indiana, but to the country that we are serious about maintaining competitive balance.

My logic is that 1.5 is too weak, and 2.0 is too strong. Let's meet in the middle at 1.75. I don't see Dwenger playing at the 6a level. Would it make 6a North more interesting? Absolutely. Will Dwenger ever be crowned as state champions? I'm 95% certain the answer is "no."  Snider hasn't won the big class in almost three decades. If the Panthers can't beat schools three times their enrollment, then neither can the Saints. Those two programs have been on equal footing for years with a slight edge going to Snider. 

If I were a dictator..................and I sincerely wish I was; I would throw out the idea of a multiplier even though I've been an advocate of it for years. My position has changed since I have no desire to see New Palestine win 4a every single year............unless we continue using the point system for the publics. 

Realignment every four years instead of two using the current point system x 2. 

Using Sagarin, I would place the the top sixteen programs during that four year period into 6a. 

Divide the remaining five classes according to enrollments and points. 

If we are being honest with ourselves, the 6a class is an even bigger problem than the dominance of the p/p's. Cut it in half............from 32 to 16..............problem solved. 

 

[Canoer]

Look at the history of the success factor and private schools and not just football , look at the number of times Indianapolis Lutheran has been in the girls softball state game. They win it a couple of times get moved up then tank a couple of years move back down to 1A then in a year or two their back to the state, this happens with LCC they got moved up tanker 2 years then back in 1A and back to winning championships ! Public schools don’t seem to be able to do this it only punishes the class behind he great group of kids 

[Canoer]

Look at the history of the success factor and private schools and not just football , look at the number of times Indianapolis Lutheran has been in the girls softball state game. They win it a couple of times get moved up then tank a couple of years move back down to 1A then in a year or two their back to the state, this happens with LCC they got moved up tanker 2 years then back in 1A and back to winning championships ! Public schools don’t seem to be able to do this it only punishes the class behind he great group of kids 

[southend]

35 minutes ago, BTF said:

My logic is that 1.5 is too weak, and 2.0 is too strong. Let's meet in the middle at 1.75. I don't see Dwenger playing at the 6a level. Would it make 6a North more interesting? Absolutely. Will Dwenger ever be crowned as state champions? I'm 95% certain the answer is "no."  Snider hasn't won the big class in almost three decades. If the Panthers can't beat schools three times their enrollment, then neither can the Saints. Those two programs have been on equal footing for years with a slight edge going to Snider. 

If I were a dictator..................and I sincerely wish I was; I would throw out the idea of a multiplier even though I've been an advocate of it for years. My position has changed since I have no desire to see New Palestine win 4a every single year............unless we continue using the point system for the publics. 

Realignment every four years instead of two using the current point system x 2. 

Using Sagarin, I would place the the top sixteen programs during that four year period into 6a. 

Divide the remaining five classes according to enrollments and points. 

If we are being honest with ourselves, the 6a class is an even bigger problem than the dominance of the p/p's. Cut it in half............from 32 to 16..............problem solved. 

 

Very interesting 

[Canoer]

Look at the history of the success factor and private schools and not just football , look at the number of times Indianapolis Lutheran has been in the girls softball state game. They win it a couple of times get moved up then tank a couple of years move back down to 1A then in a year or two their back to the state, this happens with LCC they got moved up tanker 2 years then back in 1A and back to winning championships ! Public schools don’t seem to be able to do this it only punishes the class behind he great group of kids 

[Justasportsfan]

2 hours ago, BTF said:

My logic is that 1.5 is too weak, and 2.0 is too strong. Let's meet in the middle at 1.75. I don't see Dwenger playing at the 6a level. Would it make 6a North more interesting? Absolutely. Will Dwenger ever be crowned as state champions? I'm 95% certain the answer is "no."  Snider hasn't won the big class in almost three decades. If the Panthers can't beat schools three times their enrollment, then neither can the Saints. Those two programs have been on equal footing for years with a slight edge going to Snider. 

If I were a dictator..................and I sincerely wish I was; I would throw out the idea of a multiplier even though I've been an advocate of it for years. My position has changed since I have no desire to see New Palestine win 4a every single year............unless we continue using the point system for the publics. 

Realignment every four years instead of two using the current point system x 2. 

Using Sagarin, I would place the the top sixteen programs during that four year period into 6a. 

Divide the remaining five classes according to enrollments and points. 

If we are being honest with ourselves, the 6a class is an even bigger problem than the dominance of the p/p's. Cut it in half............from 32 to 16..............problem solved. 

 

Not sure the ihsaa would ever use sagarin..i mean..🤔

[Lysander]

5 minutes ago, Justasportsfan said:

Not sure the ihsaa would ever use sagarin..i mean..🤔

Right now you can’t use ANY analytics.......Sagarin, MaxPreps/CalPreps, etc. because we have 2 closed conferences in Indiana (SAC and SIAC) and it takes a few weeks AFTER playoffs have already started to see just where those teams rank relative to the rest of the state.

The only alternative is to eliminate conferences (or, at least eliminate closed conferences....but you still need several non-conference games to get reliable numbers) and that isn’t happening.

[Justasportsfan]

13 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Right now you can’t use ANY analytics.......Sagarin, MaxPreps/CalPreps, etc. because we have 2 closed conferences in Indiana (SAC and SIAC) and it takes a few weeks AFTER playoffs have already started to see just where those teams rank relative to the rest of the state.

The only alternative is to eliminate conferences (or, at least eliminate closed conferences....but you still need several non-conference games to get reliable numbers) and that isn’t happening.

7a in Indiana football equals more money for everyone right? 💵😁

[BTF]

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

Right now you can’t use ANY analytics.......Sagarin, MaxPreps/CalPreps, etc. because we have 2 closed conferences in Indiana (SAC and SIAC) and it takes a few weeks AFTER playoffs have already started to see just where those teams rank relative to the rest of the state.

The only alternative is to eliminate conferences (or, at least eliminate closed conferences....but you still need several non-conference games to get reliable numbers) and that isn’t happening.

Alignments wouldn't be assessed until the season is over. We would have four seasons in the books. I think everyone is in agreement that the Sagarin Rating is pretty accurate by seasons end. Not sure how else to do it. The IHSAA should take advantage of this opportunity that's been gifted to them. Sagarin ONLY does this for the state of Indiana. They should put it to use somehow. 

[Muda69]

15 hours ago, DT said:

The PPs that have joined mixed public/private conferences have been playing up 1,2  and sometimes 3 classes for years

Andrean

St Joe

Marian

Luers

Dwenger

LCC

Memorial

Mater Dei

This will be status quo for all or most of them, and I fully expect they will embrace the challenge.

The Indy privates will feel the most heat, but they are also blessed with the greatest resources to meet the challenge head on.

 

Exactly.  And why doesn't this seem to work for 99% of the government school football programs.  Should Frankfort, a "4A" school, join a primarily 5A/6A conference so they can "slum down" to 4A for the tournament?  Sounds like a recipe for success to me, if p/p's can do it why can't the government school programs?

 

[crimsonace1]

One idea I've heard floated in other states - to use the higher number of your school's enrollment OR the average enrollment of your opponents (largest & smallest excepted so playing Carmel doesn't skew the numbers). 

[US31]

16 hours ago, BTF said:

If we are being honest with ourselves, the 6a class is an even bigger problem than the dominance of the p/p's. Cut it in half............from 32 to 16..............problem solved. 

 

Difference between 1 & 16 in 6A = 2690 (Carmel and LN)

Difference between 16 & 32 in 6A = 561 (LN and Jeffersonville)

The 6A problem is really Carmel & BD....or possibly the top 5.  But once you get down to 3500 there is a pretty steady decline through the rest of the class.

As far a success factor, I would be open to a "rolling" 3 year success factor...but that would require a readjustment of classification every year.

2 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

One idea I've heard floated in other states - to use the higher number of your school's enrollment OR the average enrollment of your opponents (largest & smallest excepted so playing Carmel doesn't skew the numbers). 

 A lot of 4-5A schools would be fighting to schedule 2-3A PP's in their non-conference schedule.

[Lysander]

Honestly....and brutally,  when the IHSAA split 5A and created 6A and a “new” 5A, I chuckled.  Actually, laughed hysterically.  How could the IHSAA not see the inevitable (actually, they may have already known)?

Certainly Cathedral did as the first 4A team to feast on the “new” 5A banquet of minnows.

The concept (I assume) was to give a trophy to some school in that “new” 5A class since they had long pissed and moaned about how they would be great excepting the MIC, HCC, etc., etc.,......basically any teams above them.  

In looking at those teams, with the exception of Snider (when it’s population occasionally dipped down into 5A), it was a “ne’er do well” class.  

No real tradition of success or competitiveness overall going back the last 25 or so years.

Literally, the weakest schools pound for pound in the State.  They had been GIFTED their own class....and even then they failed.

Guess what? They got chewed up and spit out first by 4A Cathedral.  Then 4A Columbus East and 4A New Pal feasted.

Just get rid of 5A entirely and average them out over the 4 classes below and go back to 5 classes.  There is no competitive reason not to do it since they are not and have never been (excepting Snider) competitive with the existing 4A teams.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Lysander

[Guest DT]

31 minutes ago, US31 said:

Difference between 1 & 16 in 6A = 2690 (Carmel and LN)

Difference between 16 & 32 in 6A = 561 (LN and Jeffersonville)

The 6A problem is really Carmel & BD....or possibly the top 5.  But once you get down to 3500 there is a pretty steady decline through the rest of the class.

As far a success factor, I would be open to a "rolling" 3 year success factor...but that would require a readjustment of classification every year.

 A lot of 4-5A schools would be fighting to schedule 2-3A PP's in their non-conference schedule.

That sounds like a good thing 

[fenderbender]

26 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Honestly....and brutally,  when the IHSAA split 5A and created 6A and a “new” 5A, I chuckled.  Actually, laughed hysterically.  How could the IHSAA not see the inevitable (actually, they may have already known)?

Certainly Cathedral did as the first 4A team to feast on the “new” 5A banquet of minnows.

The concept (I assume) was to give a trophy to some school in that “new” 5A class since they had long pissed and moaned about how they would be great excepting the MIC, HCC, etc., etc.,......basically any teams above them.  

In looking at those teams, with the exception of Snider (when it’s population occasionally dipped down into 5A), it was a “ne’er do well” class.  

No real tradition of success or competitiveness overall going back the last 25 or so years.

Literally, the weakest schools pound for pound in the State.  They had been GIFTED their own class....and even then they failed.

Guess what? They got chewed up and spit out first by 4A Cathedral.  Then 4A Columbus East and 4A New Pal feasted.

Just get rid of 5A entirely and average them out over the 4 classes below and go back to 5 classes.  There is no competitive reason not to do it since they are not and have never been (excepting Snider) competitive with the existing 4A teams.

Throw Castle in there with Snyder.   Thought they would have won more since they ran into Center Grove a couple of times and 6A took CG out of the way.

[US31]

36 minutes ago, Lysander said:

 

Just get rid of 5A entirely and average them out over the 4 classes below and go back to 5 classes.  There is no competitive reason not to do it since they are not and have never been (excepting Snider) competitive with the existing 4A teams.

I thought a version of this was the way to go back when it got introduced.....

Take out the 6A (top 32, 16, whatever).  Average the rest out in 5 classes.  Combine that with a 3 year "rolling" success factor.

I just don't see the IHSAA ever going back to only 5 state championship games when they could sell tickets for 6.  I personally think 6 is a good number.  You can comfortably play 3 games in a day and it makes Fri/Sat after Thanksgiving a solid weekend of Indiana Football.

42 minutes ago, DT said:

That sounds like a good thing 

Not saying it would be bad....just an observation.  Chatard would be the hot girl at the party🤪

[Guest DT]

Would any PPs fight the 2.0 Multiplier, which could include suing the IHSAA in civil court for discrimination?

[Lysander]

11 minutes ago, DT said:

Would any PPs fight the 2.0 Multiplier, which could include suing the IHSAA in civil court for discrimination?

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Seems a roughly equivalent question.

[Guest DT]

1 minute ago, Lysander said:

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Seems a roughly equivalent question.

Always and forever obsequious relative to the cause

[Lysander]

1 minute ago, DT said:

Always and forever obsequious relative to the cause

My only cause is to not favor lunacy and shy from self-aggrandizement.  

Consider me obsequious.

You?

[Guest DT]

3 minutes ago, Lysander said:

My only cause is to not favor lunacy and shy from self-aggrandizement.  

Consider me obsequious.

You?

I just want to get the 2.0 Multiplier Initiative implemented before the next round of reclassification.  Its my contribution to the greater good relative to competitive balance and sportsmanship in Indiana High School Football.  Would you agree that it is indeed a noble cause?

Edited November 10, 2020 by DT

[Lysander]

Just now, DT said:

I just want to get the 2.0 Multiplier Initiative implemented before the next round of reclassification.  Its my contribution to the greater good relative to competitive balance and sportsmanship in Indiana GHigh School Football.  Would you agree that it is indeed a noble cause?

Raking my leaves is a noble cause.  

You throwing crap on a wall is....well.... just something else distracting that I need to clean up as I rake my leaves.

[Lysander]

Muda....thanks for the downtick it reminds me of the good old days when we fought like cats and dogs and you had some semblance of a spine.

Makes me sad seeing you a lapdog for DT....feel for ya’.

[Guest DT]

32 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Raking my leaves is a noble cause.  

You throwing crap on a wall is....well.... just something else distracting that I need to clean up as I rake my leaves.

The last time we went through this exercise, the Success Factor was the outcome of our efforts.

Perhaps we will have the opportunity to influence policy and decision making once again.