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Officials and the Tournament


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I realize there is an officials forum, but wanted to see others opinions, if they had one.  

I will rant for a minute.  As a former tournament official, I am very disheartened at how officials are chosen (or not chosen) to move on in the tournament.  I know several good crews who do not gain enough votes, or simply do not have the "years of experience" to move on.  Those same officials are docked yearly because they do not advance further in the tournament to gain more points for future years.  It is a vicious cycle of the same crews year in and year out moving from Sectional Final, to Regional, to Semi State, to State and all over again way too often.  Let me be clear, I think some of these crews are excellent.....but I have seen some not so great officiating in state games as well.  

This week alone, according to IHSAA guidelines, 2 crews that are doing a regional championship are not even regional eligible.  How does this happen?  Why is this an issue year in and year out.  

I am worried for the future of officiating, and things like this will only hurt getting younger and experienced officials to get into officiating and staying with officiating.  A lot of these issues come from the top from a particular person.....It is time to either work with and hear the officials, or the tournament could be officiated by uncertified officials in the very near very future.  

How do we fix this?  I've seen too many good crews say "forget it" and not even apply for the tournament any longer due to these issues.  It really is a shame.  

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I need to tread lightly here, since I love my job as an observer, and the IHSAA is my boss. So, be clear about this. This is my personal opinion. I have no influence with the IHSAA on this issue, and am speaking purely as someone who existed within the system for many, many years ... and enjoyed great success under that system. My crew was together for 25 years, and we never worked lower than a Regional in any year we were eligible.

The single greatest change that would result in instant improvement in the caliber of officiating in Indiana, and in the perception of the fairness and accuracy of the system, would be the abolition of the coaches’ vote as the primary determinant in tournament officiating advancement. Don’t get me wrong, coaches are important stakeholders in the process. Give them the opportunity to “scratch” X number of crews so they won’t feel disenfranchised. But leave the evaluation of officiating proficiency to the people who have had the training and experience to know what they should be looking for, and what’s really important. And who are unbiased, i.e., unaffected by the outcome of the game.

If coaches sincerely wanted to make a contribution to increase the quality of the officials they see, they’d sponsor a resolution at the next IFCA meeting to tell the IHSAA to find another way to select tournament officials.

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I agee Bobref.......

One bad call/one ball to bounce the right way for a team, can literally hinder a crew from advancing for years based on a coach's vote.  I am happy to see observers are getting out there more....I personally wish the observers had more of a say.  They are the ones that see the crews, and KNOW how to properly disect a crew's performance, NOT the powers that be on North Meridian Street.  

 

I hope I am clear when I say there are several crews that deserve the right to officiate the big games on Thanksgiving weekend, however, I just have seen too many that do not.  

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23 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I need to tread lightly here, since I love my job as an observer, and the IHSAA is my boss. So, be clear about this. This is my personal opinion. I have no influence with the IHSAA on this issue, and am speaking purely as someone who existed within the system for many, many years ... and enjoyed great success under that system. My crew was together for 25 years, and we never worked lower than a Regional in any year we were eligible.

The single greatest change that would result in instant improvement in the caliber of officiating in Indiana, and in the perception of the fairness and accuracy of the system, would be the abolition of the coaches’ vote as the primary determinant in tournament officiating advancement. Don’t get me wrong, coaches are important stakeholders in the process. Give them the opportunity to “scratch” X number of crews so they won’t feel disenfranchised. But leave the evaluation of officiating proficiency to the people who have had the training and experience to know what they should be looking for, and what’s really important. And who are unbiased, i.e., unaffected by the outcome of the game.

If coaches sincerely wanted to make a contribution to increase the quality of the officials they see, they’d sponsor a resolution at the next IFCA meeting to tell the IHSAA to find another way to select tournament officials.

This right here would, in my opinion, help a lot in officials advancing. My particular crew has been getting votes from schools that they have never done before. Hell they had never done a game in that region before (we are out of Linton, receiving low votes from Fort Wayne). I am fine with the coaches vote as long and they can do it fairly and not just add votes that are to help officials in there area get a higher score than another crew (again, just my opinion). Also, we had two observers this year and was pleasantly surprised to see them (once during regular season and during our sectional game). Nothing but good things to say as we had never been observed. We even got to meet Mr. Faulkens as well and it was a pleasant chat as well. 

Anyway, I feel like crews getting observed will definitely help. When I go online and read about a crew being horrible, it usually just makes me laugh. I use to be THAT fan and I understand the game of football quite well. Now that I am an official, I see things a lot differently now (it drives my wife nuts since I watch the game differently). During one of our observed games, the fans were pissed afterwards saying we were awful. The observer informed us quite different. In the future, I believe this will help out those "lower ranked" crews that do not get recognized. However, if you only do the same teams every year and never venture out to bigger schools, you may not get noticed either.

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45 minutes ago, RetiredOfficial03 said:

I agee Bobref.......

One bad call/one ball to bounce the right way for a team, can literally hinder a crew from advancing for years based on a coach's vote.  I am happy to see observers are getting out there more....I personally wish the observers had more of a say.  They are the ones that see the crews, and KNOW how to properly disect a crew's performance, NOT the powers that be on North Meridian Street.  

 

I hope I am clear when I say there are several crews that deserve the right to officiate the big games on Thanksgiving weekend, however, I just have seen too many that do not.  

It's not the bad votes that kill you. It's the fact you don't have all the extra friendly votes the crews that generally advance get. Those crews get just as many bad votes and others. They just get a lot of extra 5s from people they knew through a variety of legitimate sources. Your bad votes may keep you in the first round rather than the second round, but it's not what is preventing you from advancing deep into the tournament. The single most common denominator for the crews that advance is deep advancement (especially by the referee) into the basketball tournament. Those guys are working in HSs throughout the year and once they start to get momentum in basketball it starts to improve their football rating. We call it the coach's vote, but the ballot is actually sent to the AD. They have a lot of say as well.

I encourage all crews to check with the IHSAA as well (not now but when things quiet down). I've heard crews inquire about the general rating of the "unknown" crews. More often than not those votes are 4s and 5s. Some schools just like to vote for everyone and when they do it's usually positive. Don't diminish the value of those votes.

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I’m going to preface this by saying, I gave up worrying about tournament advancement a long time ago. In fact if it were not for the younger guys on our crew, I wouldn’t even apply for the tournament. 

1. Observers. I have no idea what input observers have or what purpose they serve, other than crews getting feedback from someone who knows what we’re doing. There are crews out there getting observed 3-4 times a season. One observer told a friend of mine that he was the only observer that traveled south of Indy. So does that translate into don’t take games south of Indy if you want to be observed? Does being observed have anything to do with your advancement? 

2. Rating system. In it’s latest iteration is set up to favor crews that have worked deep in the tournament based on years licensed, previous tournament experience, and height level worked components. Allegedly these three components are 30% of our ratings.

3. Coaches vote. This had been covered, no need to rehash. I do feel like coaches need some input. I’m a bit torn as to what that input should be. 

4. Information. I think this year more than any other has highlighted the discrepancies in how information is decimated from Indianapolis. With the advent of Zoom meetings, we were able to catch meetings from all over the state. I thought it was odd the different things you heard from one association to the next. Why some info is sent to association chairs to be forwarded, some sent to white hats, and some sent to all officials. 

5. This system is not a system to identify the best crews, it’s a system to fill games. It serves it’s purpose and I’m assuming the school of thought is if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. 

6. Coaches and AD’s don’t understand how the voting works. I’ve had coaches tell me “hey I gave you a 4, I give you one every year”. I just thank them for voting.  They don’t understand a 4 hurts you. The first year  I voted as a HC, my AD asked me why all my votes were 5’s and a a few 3’s. After I explained it to him, he understood.  

Add in what has been mentioned with crews leapfrogging steps in the process and it creates a perception that the system is rigged to begin with. 

As  i stated, I quit worrying about this crap a long time ago. We work the games,I have no problem looking at myself in the mirror. But I will admit, think about if you were a coach or a player, and you knew before the season started, that you had no/zero/zip/zilch/nada chance of making it to LOS, and it had nothing to do with your performance on the field. At some point you just feel used.

 

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My biggest issue is we never find out why we didn't get one. When I look at who does anyone in a lead position in a association or ran a clinic..their names keep appearing. I was told when we applied politics and the good ole boys club was an issue. Our crew is in its 3rd year and I talked to a guy today who has two year crew that is doing a regional. Now I do not know if the coaches voted us as they said they were going to or not. Our entire crew is certified met all the requirements yet we do not and will not find out why we did not even get a sectional in a year officials were down. We have been told it will take 5-7 years to get the amount of votes we need. We have decided to just do Friday night games and not worry about going to the clinics, meetings, etc. We got a full schedule with being in an association or going to the clinics so save the time and money and not be upset.

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18 minutes ago, Dirty D said:

We have decided to just do Friday night games and not worry about going to the clinics, meetings, etc. We got a full schedule with being in an association or going to the clinics so save the time and money and not be upset.

So, you’re not interested in getting better? Just show up on Friday nights and expect to do a good job? Officiating is like anything else: you get out of it in proportion to the effort you put in.

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55 minutes ago, Bobref said:

So, you’re not interested in getting better? Just show up on Friday nights and expect to do a good job? Officiating is like anything else: you get out of it in proportion to the effort you put in.

 

1 hour ago, Dirty D said:

My biggest issue is we never find out why we didn't get one. When I look at who does anyone in a lead position in a association or ran a clinic..their names keep appearing. I was told when we applied politics and the good ole boys club was an issue. Our crew is in its 3rd year and I talked to a guy today who has two year crew that is doing a regional. Now I do not know if the coaches voted us as they said they were going to or not. Our entire crew is certified met all the requirements yet we do not and will not find out why we did not even get a sectional in a year officials were down. We have been told it will take 5-7 years to get the amount of votes we need. We have decided to just do Friday night games and not worry about going to the clinics, meetings, etc. We got a full schedule with being in an association or going to the clinics so save the time and money and not be upset.

The problem is that why would someone want to get better when it does indeed look like they are getting overlooked? I mean my crew is going to continue to try, but I could understand why someone would feel that way. That second year crew has to have some experience on it to get a regional game, I assume. If not, then what is the point for someone that has done it longer? I get the reasoning. Sometimes just doing it for the kids isn't the best for everyone.

 

I also feel like we should know what schools rate us, and why? How can we get better if we can't ask them/know why?

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5 hours ago, miner_35 said:

The problem is that why would someone want to get better when it does indeed look like they are getting overlooked? I mean my crew is going to continue to try, but I could understand why someone would feel that way. That second year crew has to have some experience on it to get a regional game, I assume. If not, then what is the point for someone that has done it longer? I get the reasoning. Sometimes just doing it for the kids isn't the best for everyone.

I also feel like we should know what schools rate us, and why? How can we get better if we can't ask them/know why?

I understand your frustration. We could spend a fair amount of time discussing the flaws — and, in fact, the counter-incentives — of the coaches’ vote system. But to what purpose? The inescapable fact is that playoff officiating assignments is a zero sum game. There are a finite number of assignments, and some crews are going to be disappointed. I’ve had many conversations with @JustRules and other officials on this subject, and it always ends up the same way: you can’t control how coaches vote. You can control how much effort to improve you put into your officiating. Control what you can control, and let the other stuff sort itself out.

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7 hours ago, Bobref said:

I understand your frustration. We could spend a fair amount of time discussing the flaws — and, in fact, the counter-incentives — of the coaches’ vote system. But to what purpose? The inescapable fact is that playoff officiating assignments is a zero sum game. There are a finite number of assignments, and some crews are going to be disappointed. I’ve had many conversations with @JustRules and other officials on this subject, and it always ends up the same way: you can’t control how coaches vote. You can control how much effort to improve you put into your officiating. Control what you can control, and let the other stuff sort itself out.

 

In response to what Bob said above I think is extremely important to "control what you can control". Our crew too has been disappointment by lack of advancement for many many years (started our crew in 2008). We were observed week 1 in 2016. Our observer was completely honest with us. He said our crewed was over weight at certain positions and that we appeared to be slow because of the weight some of our guys carried. So you know what I did, I went and looked at our films. That game and of every game throughout the year. We did look slow, we were out of position at times. I challenged our crew. I said, "if you want to get to the promise land, we need to change our perception of being slow". So that summer our crew made 1 personnel change and 2 other guys lost a combined 125 lbs. It hurt at the time to hear what the observer said, we were pissed and we moaned about it for weeks. We complained about other crews and how far they were advancing. But in hind sight, it was exactly what we needed to hear.

The following year we were observed and received excellent reviews. I continued to break down every game. And I don't mean looking back to see if we got the calls right or wrong, I'm talking about watching every play. Looking at mechanics, looking at positioning, looking at our eyes, where our focus is / where it should be. Controlling the things we can control: preparation, fitness, hustle, and appearance/perception. Challenge yourself and your crew. Even if you don't care about the tournament, it will bring yourself satisfaction to know you are doing everything in your control to officiate to best of your ability on any given Friday night.

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3 minutes ago, Moshiner1345 said:

 

In response to what Bob said above I think is extremely important to "control what you can control". Our crew too has been disappointment by lack of advancement for many many years (started our crew in 2008). We were observed week 1 in 2016. Our observer was completely honest with us. He said our crewed was over weight at certain positions and that we appeared to be slow because of the weight some of our guys carried. So you know what I did, I went and looked at our films. That game and of every game throughout the year. We did look slow, we were out of position at times. I challenged our crew. I said, "if you want to get to the promise land, we need to change our perception of being slow". So that summer our crew made 1 personnel change and 2 other guys lost a combined 125 lbs. It hurt at the time to hear what the observer said, we were pissed and we moaned about it for weeks. We complained about other crews and how far they were advancing. But in hind sight, it was exactly what we needed to hear.

The following year we were observed and received excellent reviews. I continued to break down every game. And I don't mean looking back to see if we got the calls right or wrong, I'm talking about watching every play. Looking at mechanics, looking at positioning, looking at our eyes, where our focus is / where it should be. Controlling the things we can control: preparation, fitness, hustle, and appearance/perception. Challenge yourself and your crew. Even if you don't care about the tournament, it will bring yourself satisfaction to know you are doing everything in your control to officiate to best of your ability on any given Friday night.

This is great advice.  Thank you.  

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This comes up every year but what I see is that more and more people are controlling what they can control. They can control if they continue to officiate or not. The game is losing more and more officials for 100’s of reasons. This Terrible system shouldn’t be one of the main ones. We have too many smart people in place not to fix this. No one in their right mind would sit down and come up with this system if they were starting from scratch.  Fix the problem. You can’t say it’s always been done like this or if you don’t like it don’t apply because we won’t sustain the numbers and quality if we continue. What’s the point of trying to get better if it’s not recognized? Why put in extra work if it doesn’t pay off. That doesn’t make sense. We know it’s a popularity contest and the officials that only work football are at a great disadvantage. We have so many tools in place to make officiating in Indiana stand out in a positive way. Let’s figure out how to make that happen

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2 hours ago, Moshiner1345 said:

 

In response to what Bob said above I think is extremely important to "control what you can control". Our crew too has been disappointment by lack of advancement for many many years (started our crew in 2008). We were observed week 1 in 2016. Our observer was completely honest with us. He said our crewed was over weight at certain positions and that we appeared to be slow because of the weight some of our guys carried. So you know what I did, I went and looked at our films. That game and of every game throughout the year. We did look slow, we were out of position at times. I challenged our crew. I said, "if you want to get to the promise land, we need to change our perception of being slow". So that summer our crew made 1 personnel change and 2 other guys lost a combined 125 lbs. It hurt at the time to hear what the observer said, we were pissed and we moaned about it for weeks. We complained about other crews and how far they were advancing. But in hind sight, it was exactly what we needed to hear.

The following year we were observed and received excellent reviews. I continued to break down every game. And I don't mean looking back to see if we got the calls right or wrong, I'm talking about watching every play. Looking at mechanics, looking at positioning, looking at our eyes, where our focus is / where it should be. Controlling the things we can control: preparation, fitness, hustle, and appearance/perception. Challenge yourself and your crew. Even if you don't care about the tournament, it will bring yourself satisfaction to know you are doing everything in your control to officiate to best of your ability on any given Friday night.

I figure my crew will find out next year if we are going to be okay. We were given great reviews and told that we should advance as far as we were able to during the tournament. To my knowledge, that was a sectional championship (however a crew got a regional championship with only 2nd round experience this year, it appears). We got a first round game and done. That included being observed during the sectional game. With this being said, we figured we were 1 and done anyway. It just didn't make much sense to us other than it was for future years after not receiving a 2nd game. 

I just want to know why we get votes from schools that have no reason to vote for us and know which schools voted low and what we did wrong to deserve said rating. Most of the time they have no clue what we do wrong, so why vote to make someone look bad? Especially after you hear "great job tonight, guys". Why lie? Just tell me you are not going to invite me back. I would rather hear the truth.

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I don’t know if this is the case at all, but I do know in the past there have been instances where a crew should have worked — according to their rating — a sectional final. But because of a clerical error when tabulating the vote, they were not assigned. The IHSAA then decided, in fairness, to treat them going forward as if they had actually worked that sectional final.

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13 hours ago, Huge Football Fan said:

This comes up every year but what I see is that more and more people are controlling what they can control. They can control if they continue to officiate or not. The game is losing more and more officials for 100’s of reasons. This Terrible system shouldn’t be one of the main ones. We have too many smart people in place not to fix this. No one in their right mind would sit down and come up with this system if they were starting from scratch.  Fix the problem. You can’t say it’s always been done like this or if you don’t like it don’t apply because we won’t sustain the numbers and quality if we continue. What’s the point of trying to get better if it’s not recognized? Why put in extra work if it doesn’t pay off. That doesn’t make sense. We know it’s a popularity contest and the officials that only work football are at a great disadvantage. We have so many tools in place to make officiating in Indiana stand out in a positive way. Let’s figure out how to make that happen

There are dozens of systems around the country for evaluating officials and determining postseason advancement. They are all flawed. As Bob says though, it's a zero sum game. If there are 140 crews that applied for the tournament and 48 of them get a sectional final, 92 are going to feel they got screwed. If you come up with a different rating system, 92 of them are still going to feel they were screwed. If they get angry enough they will also quit. Same result just a different group. Either way the IHSAA loses officials. By my count 36 crews were eligible for 24 regional final games so no matter what system is used 12 of them are going to feel slighted if they don't advance. There is no system that allows all 36 crews to advance.

I have friends who officiate in the NCAA and NFL and guess what...they bitch about their playoff assignment system. They are graded on every play and too many downgrades will keep you from a post season assignment, but several officials have similar ratings at the end of the year so the supervisor's opinion plays a huge factor. If you don't get the best bowl assignment you assume he doesn't like you. Or if you go a couple years without a postseason assignment you feel it's not fair. One NFL official told me one theory for them is the NFL decides mid-season which officials they want in the Super Bowl and suddenly all their close calls get graded correct and a couple close calls for other officials are downgraded. Likely not true but that's there perception.

I do feel any system that provides significant weight to a coach vote is a completely flawed system. There is no way to logically justify it. How would coaches like it if parents decided if they got to keep their job for the next year? Of if the media would get to vote after a game and decide who advances? But this system is easy for the IHSAA to administer and takes very little effort other than data to set up the rating process. They get a number assigned to each official or crew depending on the sport and slot people based on objective data. But the inputs of that data is very flawed and not at all based on any input from any non-biased individual who understands the rules, mechanics and philosophies of officiating.

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I have been a high school football coach for over 30 years and a tournament basketball official for over 20 years. Most coaches do not know the rules no matter what the sport is ( i know I am one of them ) I am way to busy to study all the rules their are  a lot more things to worry about. I think that coaches votes should be taken out of the rating of officials. I would like to leave that up to  observers (retired officials). 

In basketball I have worked at the regional level I quit worrying about rankings years ago they go up and down new ADs Coaches etc have some input in that. I have worked close to 50 varsity games a year for the last 10-15 years so I just do it because I love the game and the KIds. Its not for the money cause we usually take a pay cut to work the tourney 

   

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Just out of curiosity, is it really that big of a deal for officials to be in the loop for advancement in the tournament?

It would seem to me that the further you advance in the tournament, the less money you ultimately make after travel, meals and other expenses.  I officiated for 10 years and I did it primarily for the extra side income.  I would never accept an assignment that took my hourly take below a certain minimum, depending on what level I was offiating at.  

Young officials get into the game for the cash.  Older guys stiock aroound for the exercise and the camaraderie.  I certainly wouldnt want to give up valuable off time spending several hours to get to a game and wind up losing money in the process.

 

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2 hours ago, DT said:

Just out of curiosity, is it really that big of a deal for officials to be in the loop for advancement in the tournament?

It would seem to me that the further you advance in the tournament, the less money you ultimately make after travel, meals and other expenses.  I officiated for 10 years and I did it primarily for the extra side income.  I would never accept an assignment that took my hourly take below a certain minimum, depending on what level I was offiating at.  

Young officials get into the game for the cash.  Older guys stiock aroound for the exercise and the camaraderie.  I certainly wouldnt want to give up valuable off time spending several hours to get to a game and wind up losing money in the process.

 

Why am I not surprised by this. It's not always about the bottom line.

I started late, but yes, it was for the extra income. Thankfully, I've done well enough in my career that the football money is the least of my concerns. I enjoy it, I like hanging out with our crew, and I hope to eventually work on Thanksgiving weekend. If that happens, I'll lose money, but enjoy every minute of it. 

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2 hours ago, DT said:

Just out of curiosity, is it really that big of a deal for officials to be in the loop for advancement in the tournament?

It would seem to me that the further you advance in the tournament, the less money you ultimately make after travel, meals and other expenses.  I officiated for 10 years and I did it primarily for the extra side income.  I would never accept an assignment that took my hourly take below a certain minimum, depending on what level I was offiating at.  

Young officials get into the game for the cash.  Older guys stiock aroound for the exercise and the camaraderie.  I certainly wouldnt want to give up valuable off time spending several hours to get to a game and wind up losing money in the process.

 

People officiate for different reasons. For most people interested in primarily money, they either quit after a short time — or they’re really bad at economics.

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3 hours ago, DT said:

It would seem to me that the further you advance in the tournament, the less money you ultimately make after travel, meals and other expenses.  I officiated for 10 years and I did it primarily for the extra side income.  I would never accept an assignment that took my hourly take below a certain minimum, depending on what level I was offiating at.  

 

 

We can’t be friends.

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