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Roncalli starting to look like a 6A Program


Guest DT

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26 minutes ago, temptation said:

The numbers are easy to access.  What townships are you referring to?  Lawrence, Washington and Pike I assume?

All 3. The numbers though will show by school, and I don't believe any of the districts only use neighborhood schools. For example, if there was a school in the Geist area that only took kids from the neighborhood around Geist, the F&R number would be very low. It appears Amy Beverland Elementary is close to the Geist area, and it has a 28% F&R number. Brook Park is one of the elementary schools closer to the south edge of the district, and it has a an 85% R&R number. Both schools will pull students from around the district beyond their local neighborhoods and they area already have a nearly 60 percentage point gap. If both schools only pulled from their neighborhoods I imagine the gap would be closer to that 79 percentage points. You could do similar analysis in Pike and Washington Townships. You have less affluence in the other township districts, but it's still possible to have wide disparities the closer you get to the edges of each district.

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15 hours ago, JustRules said:

It's possible some of the Marion County township districts have it. Although I think they try to spread out each school to represent the district and not just serve as neighborhood schools. Many of them are centrally located. But I would think in Pike, Washington and Lawrence Township the disparity from one side of the district to the other is similar. They all have some of the wealthiest neighborhoods in Indy and also some of the poorest neighborhoods.

I graduated from Pike in the early 1990s and that was definitely the case. We had a broad range from very upper-middle-class/upper-class areas, to solidly working-class neighborhoods with older housing stock and very low SES populations. The further south you went from 96th Street to 38th Street (and the further east - especially inside I-465), generally, the more the socioeconomics changed.

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On 11/14/2020 at 2:55 PM, Lysander said:

But doesn’t the ability to move freely (financially and otherwise) from one public to another give publics even more added advantage v. paying (however one does it) to go to a private or parochial school?  My guess is that schools like Carmel, as well as Center Grove, have benefited from that.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding everybody involved in this conversation....

I don't think Carmel nor Center Grove accept out-of-district transfers. Zionsville doesn't, either. It's still up to the receiving school to accept the transfer. 

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5 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

I graduated from Pike in the early 1990s and that was definitely the case. We had a broad range from very upper-middle-class/upper-class areas, to solidly working-class neighborhoods with older housing stock and very low SES populations. The further south you went from 96th Street to 38th Street (and the further east - especially inside I-465), generally, the more the socioeconomics changed.

A LOT has changed since the early 1990's.

20 minutes ago, JustRules said:

All 3. The numbers though will show by school, and I don't believe any of the districts only use neighborhood schools. For example, if there was a school in the Geist area that only took kids from the neighborhood around Geist, the F&R number would be very low. It appears Amy Beverland Elementary is close to the Geist area, and it has a 28% F&R number. Brook Park is one of the elementary schools closer to the south edge of the district, and it has a an 85% R&R number. Both schools will pull students from around the district beyond their local neighborhoods and they area already have a nearly 60 percentage point gap. If both schools only pulled from their neighborhoods I imagine the gap would be closer to that 79 percentage points. You could do similar analysis in Pike and Washington Townships. You have less affluence in the other township districts, but it's still possible to have wide disparities the closer you get to the edges of each district.

Good call/research.  Still mind blowing.

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1 hour ago, JustRules said:

I live in one of those districts and I can tell you it's very possible. If there was a school that was based in the neighborhood of the most affluent areas of the district, the F&R numbers would be extremely low. If there was a school that based in the neighborhoods closer to 38th Street (all 3 reach down that far) the F&R numbers would be 80%+. I believe all 3 districts though distribute all students through all schools so the demographics are closer to the make-up of the district with some home school preference.

 I live in a neighborhood that has pretty decent, strong middle-class grouping that wouldn't qualify for free-/reduced-lunch ... the houses on the street behind us are older "mansion" type houses, yet across the street from them are apartments and smaller footprint houses.  A couple blocks away is a liquor store across from a pawn shop with one of those "we finance" car lots with an inventory of about 20 cars.  I'm pretty sure that there's Section 8 housing close by as well.  It's definitely a socioeconomic mix that feeds into Jeff which has 61% or so free/reduced and a minority-majority status as a school.  

 

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On 11/14/2020 at 9:40 AM, Footballking16 said:

Being able to “compete” against a 6A team on any given night is entirely different than playing 6A competition night in and night out for possibly 15 weeks. There’s a ton of non-6A schools who could “compete” with any given 6A school on any given night, doesn’t mean they should voluntarily or be forced to play 2 classes up. Hell I’d bet Mt. Vernon could “compete” with 75% of 6A on any given night (and beat a lot of them) and I’m sure you wouldn’t devote a thread to it.

Well said!   Good to see that you are still in the discussion Footballking16.  This is RebelDad with a new name! 

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On 11/14/2020 at 10:27 AM, Footballking16 said:

And you’re delusional if you think Roncalli is somehow calling their enrollment to remain in 4A.

Footballking - I have looked through the posts and see you continue to well represent the views of the PP schools.  Well done. 

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On 11/14/2020 at 11:04 AM, CaptainHook said:

C'mon man.  This is the very thinking that led to the Tournament Success Factor.  Privates operate under different rules.  If you can't acknowledge that, I'm done here.

Many of us have said for year good Captain that PP schools do have advantages.  We acknowledge that.  Just not a 2.0 multiplier advantage.   The Success Factor works.  Roncalli has won one state championship in the last  15 years.  One.  Success Factor pushed them up to 5A and they won no tournament games.  None.  Not one.  Yet DT wants them up in 6A.  Rediculous. 

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17 minutes ago, Grandpa B said:

Many of us have said for year good Captain that PP schools do have advantages.  We acknowledge that.  Just not a 2.0 multiplier advantage.   The Success Factor works.  Roncalli has won one state championship in the last  15 years.  One.  Success Factor pushed them up to 5A and they won no tournament games.  None.  Not one.  Yet DT wants them up in 6A.  Rediculous. 

Roncalli had a historic run of 3 state championships and a runner up from ‘02 - ‘05. But the bump up in class didn’t hurt them as much as being in the same class and sectional as Cathedral. Since 2006 Cathedral eliminated Roncalli 6 times in 7 years.

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15 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

Roncalli had a historic run of 3 state championships and a runner up from ‘02 - ‘05. But the bump up in class didn’t hurt them as much as being in the same class and sectional as Cathedral. Since 2006 Cathedral eliminated Roncalli 6 times in 7 years.

The years that Roncalli was eliminated by Cathedral for the most part, their record in those years was not what I would consider "bump up class worthy". - 6-4, 3-7, 5-5, 5-7, 7-4, 9-3, 8-4, 8-2, 3-7.   Since 2006 in the years Roncalli was eliminated by Cathedral they were a combined 54 Wins and 43 losses.   That is worthy of DT having them play in 6A.   As Joe Biden says, "C'mon Man". 

Edited by Grandpa B
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1 minute ago, Grandpa B said:

The years that Roncalli was eliminated by Cathedral for the most part, their record in those years was not what I would consider "bump up class worthy". - 6-4, 3-7, 5-5, 5-7, 7-4, 9-3, 8-4, 8-2, 3-7.   Since 2006 in the years Roncalli was eliminated by Cathedral they were a combined 54 Wins and 43 losses.   That is worthy of DT having them play in 6A.   As Joe Biden says, "C'mon Many". 

Duly noted. But don’t measure a program’s success entirely on championships.

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6 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

Roncalli had a historic run of 3 state championships and a runner up from ‘02 - ‘05. But the bump up in class didn’t hurt them as much as being in the same class and sectional as Cathedral. Since 2006 Cathedral eliminated Roncalli 6 times in 7 years.

Although it is expected that the IHSAA will make EVERY effort to put the Indy P/Ps in the same Sectionals, I question the wisdom of it when any one of those schools is bumped up since I am assuming that once a P/P is bumped up there is every incentive for the IHSAA to make sure they get the requisite 2 points to stay up.  Putting a bumped up Roncalli in the same Sectional as Cathedral made  it impossible to keep both programs in 5A.

Somewhat like next year when they will inevitably put Chatard and Roncalli in the same Sectional.  It might make everyone feel good to see that but it quite likely results in Chatard back in 3A in 2 years (particularly given all that I am hearing about the next 2 years at Roncalli).  That said, though, most all the 4A South Sectionals have, at the moment, at least 1 really solid State Championship contender so there probably isn’t any good place to ship Chatard off to except with Roncalli.

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5 hours ago, JustRules said:

All 3. The numbers though will show by school, and I don't believe any of the districts only use neighborhood schools. For example, if there was a school in the Geist area that only took kids from the neighborhood around Geist, the F&R number would be very low. It appears Amy Beverland Elementary is close to the Geist area, and it has a 28% F&R number. Brook Park is one of the elementary schools closer to the south edge of the district, and it has a an 85% R&R number. Both schools will pull students from around the district beyond their local neighborhoods and they area already have a nearly 60 percentage point gap. If both schools only pulled from their neighborhoods I imagine the gap would be closer to that 79 percentage points. You could do similar analysis in Pike and Washington Townships. You have less affluence in the other township districts, but it's still possible to have wide disparities the closer you get to the edges of each district.

Good points and while no district boundaries are perfect (as you mentioned), a quick analysis yielded the following results.

Lawrence Township:  56 percent difference between the highest (Brook Park) and the lowest (Crestview/Amy Beverland).

Washington Township:  39 percent difference between the highest (Willow Lake/Greenbriar/Nora) and the lowest Allisonville.

Pike Township:  20 percent difference between the highest (Deer Run) and the lowest Eagle Creek.

 

79 percent is immense.

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11 hours ago, JustRules said:

All 3. The numbers though will show by school, and I don't believe any of the districts only use neighborhood schools. For example, if there was a school in the Geist area that only took kids from the neighborhood around Geist, the F&R number would be very low. It appears Amy Beverland Elementary is close to the Geist area, and it has a 28% F&R number. Brook Park is one of the elementary schools closer to the south edge of the district, and it has a an 85% R&R number. Both schools will pull students from around the district beyond their local neighborhoods and they area already have a nearly 60 percentage point gap. If both schools only pulled from their neighborhoods I imagine the gap would be closer to that 79 percentage points. You could do similar analysis in Pike and Washington Townships. You have less affluence in the other township districts, but it's still possible to have wide disparities the closer you get to the edges of each district.

Yep.

Amy Beverland is the Geist elementary school. Used to be a direct feeder to Lawrence Central until open enrollment.

Williams Creek is Washington Twp and arguably the wealthiest per capita neighborhood in Marion County. Would imagine most of those kids attend private school but a lot do go through the public school system.

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16 hours ago, temptation said:

Good points and while no district boundaries are perfect (as you mentioned), a quick analysis yielded the following results.

Lawrence Township:  56 percent difference between the highest (Brook Park) and the lowest (Crestview/Amy Beverland).

Washington Township:  39 percent difference between the highest (Willow Lake/Greenbriar/Nora) and the lowest Allisonville.

Pike Township:  20 percent difference between the highest (Deer Run) and the lowest Eagle Creek.

 

79 percent is immense.

The part you are missing though and I've mentioned several times as the core of my point is those districts don't use neighborhood school. Amy Beverland is located near Geist, but it has students from all over the east side of the district. Brook Park is near 56th Street so while not in the middle of the economically challenged areas of the district it is the closest one. If there was a school centered near 38th and Pendleton Pike and only had students from that area and you compared it to an Amy Beverland that only has Geist-area students, I have no doubt the gap would be in the 79% range. It's already 60% with an attempt to spread students throughout the district.

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20 hours ago, Grandpa B said:

The years that Roncalli was eliminated by Cathedral for the most part, their record in those years was not what I would consider "bump up class worthy". - 6-4, 3-7, 5-5, 5-7, 7-4, 9-3, 8-4, 8-2, 3-7.   Since 2006 in the years Roncalli was eliminated by Cathedral they were a combined 54 Wins and 43 losses.   That is worthy of DT having them play in 6A.   As Joe Biden says, "C'mon Man". 

For many years, we have heard the PPs say to the Publics, "just work harder, just get better."

Thats what Cathedral is saying now to Roncalli.  

Fact is, Roncalli enrollment is 150-200 students higher trhan Cathedrals.  Why isnt Roncalli playing up to its pay grade like the other PPs are doing?

Roncalli got the message and stepped on the gas this year.  They have quickly recovered, and likely will stay recovered.  RHS is the biggest PP in the state.  They can and should lead the 2.0 Multiplier Charge and slip right into 6A with relatively no headwinds.  They might not string together a run of state titles, but they will be playing at a level that is approriate given the advantages that their student body enjoys.

 

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9 minutes ago, DT said:

For many years, we have heard the PPs say to the Publics, "just work harder, just get better."

Thats what Cathedral is saying now to Roncalli.  

Fact is, Roncalli enrollment is 150-200 students higher trhan Cathedrals.  Why isnt Roncalli playing up to its pay grade like the other PPs are doing?

Roncalli got the message and stepped on the gas this year.  They have quickly recovered, and likely will stay recovered.  RHS is the biggest PP in the state.  They can and should lead the 2.0 Multiplier Charge and slip right into 6A with relatively no headwinds.  They might not string together a run of state titles, but they will be playing at a level that is approriate given the advantages that their student body enjoys.

 

Roncalli operates under the restrictions imposed by the Archdiocese as regards reaching out to CYO student athletes.  Like the other 3 Archdiocesan schools they are not allowed to directly contact those students/families individually to come play at their school.  A HS coach can talk to a CYO team as a whole (as I understand it) but there is no individual reach out to kids or families specific to coming to play a certain sport. They certainly can’t reach out to athletes (in any way) outside of CYO.  Brebeuf has agreed to that same set of rules.

Cathedral, who initially helped draft those rules (about 10 or so years ago, now), later declined to sign onto them and does reach out to individual families/kids.  

It’s a free country, Cathedral can do what they want....but it’s NOT a free country for the Archdiocese schools (and Brebeuf).

Given that, Roncalli (and none of the Archdiocesan schools along with Brebeuf) can even vaguely hope to match Cathedral in their ability to recruit even their OWN feeder schools let alone kids outside of them throughout Central Indiana as they would need to do to compete with Cathedral. 

So what you propose is never going to happen....it can’t so long as they are part of the Archdiocese.  

Literally, an Archdiocese head coach cannot talk directly and individually to a family or kid about playing  their particular sport on the day they are signing up for classes.  

 

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48 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Roncalli operates under the restrictions imposed by the Archdiocese as regards reaching out to CYO student athletes.  Like the other 3 Archdiocesan schools they are not allowed to directly contact those students/families individually to come play at their school.  A HS coach can talk to a CYO team as a whole (as I understand it) but there is no individual reach out to kids or families specific to coming to play a certain sport. They certainly can’t reach out to athletes (in any way) outside of CYO.  Brebeuf has agreed to that same set of rules.

Cathedral, who initially helped draft those rules (about 10 or so years ago, now), later declined to sign onto them and does reach out to individual families/kids.  

It’s a free country, Cathedral can do what they want....but it’s NOT a free country for the Archdiocese schools (and Brebeuf).

Given that, Roncalli (and none of the Archdiocesan schools along with Brebeuf) can even vaguely hope to match Cathedral in their ability to recruit even their OWN feeder schools let alone kids outside of them throughout Central Indiana as they would need to do to compete with Cathedral. 

So what you propose is never going to happen....it can’t so long as they are part of the Archdiocese.  

Literally, an Archdiocese head coach cannot talk directly and individually to a family or kid about playing  their particular sport on the day they are signing up for classes.  

 

Curious, does GC follow this practice?  Wondering since they are not in the Archdiocese.

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53 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Roncalli operates under the restrictions imposed by the Archdiocese as regards reaching out to CYO student athletes.  Like the other 3 Archdiocesan schools they are not allowed to directly contact those students/families individually to come play at their school.  A HS coach can talk to a CYO team as a whole (as I understand it) but there is no individual reach out to kids or families specific to coming to play a certain sport. They certainly can’t reach out to athletes (in any way) outside of CYO.  Brebeuf has agreed to that same set of rules.

Cathedral, who initially helped draft those rules (about 10 or so years ago, now), later declined to sign onto them and does reach out to individual families/kids.  

It’s a free country, Cathedral can do what they want....but it’s NOT a free country for the Archdiocese schools (and Brebeuf).

Given that, Roncalli (and none of the Archdiocesan schools along with Brebeuf) can even vaguely hope to match Cathedral in their ability to recruit even their OWN feeder schools let alone kids outside of them throughout Central Indiana as they would need to do to compete with Cathedral. 

So what you propose is never going to happen....it can’t so long as they are part of the Archdiocese.  

Literally, an Archdiocese head coach cannot talk directly and individually to a family or kid about playing  their particular sport on the day they are signing up for classes.  

 

Interesting. What would they have to do to no longer be part of the Archdiocese? What benefits do they gain from being part of the Archdiocese? I am not familiar with it at all, so just curious. Also interesting that Cathedral would help draft the rules and then not sign them..

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58 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Roncalli operates under the restrictions imposed by the Archdiocese as regards reaching out to CYO student athletes.  Like the other 3 Archdiocesan schools they are not allowed to directly contact those students/families individually to come play at their school.  A HS coach can talk to a CYO team as a whole (as I understand it) but there is no individual reach out to kids or families specific to coming to play a certain sport. They certainly can’t reach out to athletes (in any way) outside of CYO.  Brebeuf has agreed to that same set of rules.

Cathedral, who initially helped draft those rules (about 10 or so years ago, now), later declined to sign onto them and does reach out to individual families/kids.  

It’s a free country, Cathedral can do what they want....but it’s NOT a free country for the Archdiocese schools (and Brebeuf).

Given that, Roncalli (and none of the Archdiocesan schools along with Brebeuf) can even vaguely hope to match Cathedral in their ability to recruit even their OWN feeder schools let alone kids outside of them throughout Central Indiana as they would need to do to compete with Cathedral. 

So what you propose is never going to happen....it can’t so long as they are part of the Archdiocese.  

Literally, an Archdiocese head coach cannot talk directly and individually to a family or kid about playing  their particular sport on the day they are signing up for classes.  

 

It can happen, if and when the IHSAA determines that competitive balance has tilted back strongly in favor of the PPs and further mechanisms are required to return to stability and normalcy.  I am in the camp that feels that COVID will have a long lasting impact on high school sports in Indiana and throughout the country, with football possibly being the most at risk in terms of lost programs and declining participation.  This is no longer just an issue of performance on the field.  The pandemic has widened the competitive gap between the haves and the have nots.  The IHSAA will ignore this issue at their own peril.  

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5 minutes ago, Prospect said:

Interesting. What would they have to do to no longer be part of the Archdiocese? What benefits do they gain from being part of the Archdiocese? I am not familiar with it at all, so just curious. Also interesting that Cathedral would help draft the rules and then not sign them..

The Archdiocese schools are effectively an extension of the church so breaking away is neither desirable nor possible.  I think it’s important that everyone understands that it’s great that some of the schools might be pretty good  at football but the Arccdiocese could care less....that isn’t their mission...or the schools’ mission.

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17 minutes ago, fenderbender said:

Curious, does GC follow this practice?  Wondering since they are not in the Archdiocese.

I can't speak for Guerin, but I would suspect that, on principal, Guerin would not attempt to poach Indy-Diocese players.  As for their own diocese, LCC and Guerin are the only Catholic high schools in the Diocese of Lafayette-in-Indiana ... and that's a big diocese for two high schools.  With that said, LCC's not really in a position to contend for kids that are really outside of the Lafayette area and basically the Tippecanoe County area despite the fact that the diocese spans from the Indiana/Illinois border all the way over to the Indiana/Ohio border, down to just north of Indy and just south of South Bend and southwest of Ft. Wayne.  LCC has six parishes just in Lafayette/West Lafayette and Guerin has a few, including a couple good-sized ones, in close proximity too. 

Diocese%20of%20Lafayette-in-Indiana%20Ma

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41 minutes ago, DT said:

It can happen, if and when the IHSAA determines that competitive balance has tilted back strongly in favor of the PPs and further mechanisms are required to return to stability and normalcy.  I am in the camp that feels that COVID will have a long lasting impact on high school sports in Indiana and throughout the country, with football possibly being the most at risk in terms of lost programs and declining participation.  This is no longer just an issue of performance on the field.  The pandemic has widened the competitive gap between the haves and the have nots.  The IHSAA will ignore this issue at their own peril.  

First, it won’t happen.  These schools aren’t going to start chasing every kid across Central Indiana to accommodate your bizarre idea of equity.  You can make them all 6A.  They aren’t going to change their internal rules.

 Fundamentally, though,  I’m confused....just why in God’s name do you want 5-6 more versions of Cathedral running around peering under every rock for athletes?  Why aren’t you content with the restrictions these schools have placed on themselves.

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