Roncalli starting to look like a 6A Program

[Guest DT]

8 minutes ago, Lysander said:

First, it won’t happen.  These schools aren’t going to start chasing every kid across Central Indiana to accommodate your bizarre idea of equity.  You can make them all 6A.  They aren’t going to change their internal rules.

 Fundamentally, though,  I’m confused....just why in God’s name do you want 5-6 more versions of Cathedral running around peering under every rock for athletes?  Why aren’t you content with the restrictions these schools have placed on themselves.

The SF is just a watered down version of the Multiplier.  Both achieve the same objective.  Pushing overachieving programs up to higher levels of play.  If the SF can move a school up two classes, then so can the Multiplier.

What we are finally realizing is that the CYO and other PP feeder systems are creating a massive talent and performance gap between the PPs and the publics.  The publics simply do not , in many cases throughout the state, have the organizational or financial capacity to create what the PPs have created at the feeder levels.

Football players are created at the pee wee and bantam levels.  Center Grove will be glad to confirm that for you.  CG is one of the few publics statewide that can match or exceed what the PPs are doing at the cyo levels.  

Interesting comments coming from Bremen fans yesterday here on the GID who say that powerhouse Mishawaka Marian is pulling talent out of South Bend and Elkhart counties, up north to Michigan and south to Bremen.  

A you say, "c'mon."  How are the publics supposed to deal with that?  Fact is.  They arent.  Thay are getting their butts kicked.  

[foxbat]

4 minutes ago, DT said:

The SF is just a watered down version of the Multiplier.  Both achieve the same objective.  Pushing overachieving programs up to higher levels of play.  If the SF can move a school up two classes, then so can the Multiplier.

 

No ... it isn't and no ... it doesn't.  SF applies to all schools regardless of public or private and addresses the ACTUAL outcome of the system/process.  You can argue about the fairness to the next class, but it applies itself equally based upon a defined and measurable outcome.  A multiplier is targeted, at least in your version, to a subset of schools, and is based on a perceived/expected outcome whether or not said outcome would have been achieved.

In SF, Bishop Noll never sees a class above its enrollment.  In your version of multiplier, it goes up two classes even if it only fields a team of 12 kids every season.

Probably the most telling issue is that there hasn't yet been an indication of why 2.0 should be picked, as opposed to 1.5 or 1.25 or 1.75 or any other number.  The fact that SF could have a team move up two classes and the fact that a 2.0 multiplier can do the same doesn't make them any more the same as cheating on an exam and studying on for exam to get an A make both activities the same.

[Lysander]

47 minutes ago, foxbat said:

I can't speak for Guerin, but I would suspect that, on principal, Guerin would not attempt to poach Indy-Diocese players.  As for their own diocese, LCC and Guerin are the only Catholic high schools in the Diocese of Lafayette-in-Indiana ... and that's a big diocese for two high schools.  With that said, LCC's not really in a position to contend for kids that are really outside of the Lafayette area and basically the Tippecanoe County area despite the fact that the diocese spans from the Indiana/Illinois border all the way over to the Indiana/Ohio border, down to just north of Indy and just south of South Bend and southwest of Ft. Wayne.  LCC has six parishes just in Lafayette/West Lafayette and Guerin has a few, including a couple good-sized ones, in close proximity too. 

No one actively will “poach”, but kids are free to go there from Indy just as kids are free to go to Chatard from Ritter feeders.  It’s just that you can’t actively pursue them. I recall the late Eric Anderson when he was AD at Guerin making that clear when speaking with him at a Guerin fundraiser some years ago.  So regardless whether Guerin has signed on, that’s been their policy and I have no reason to think it’s changed.

[fenderbender]

1 hour ago, Prospect said:

Interesting. What would they have to do to no longer be part of the Archdiocese? What benefits do they gain from being part of the Archdiocese? I am not familiar with it at all, so just curious. Also interesting that Cathedral would help draft the rules and then not sign them..

They are just in a different one (Lafayette not Indy) as are several of the North side grade schools.

[Guest DT]

11 minutes ago, foxbat said:

No ... it isn't and no ... it doesn't.  SF applies to all schools regardless of public or private and addresses the ACTUAL outcome of the system/process.  You can argue about the fairness to the next class, but it applies itself equally based upon a defined and measurable outcome.  A multiplier is targeted, at least in your version, to a subset of schools, and is based on a perceived/expected outcome whether or not said outcome would have been achieved.

In SF, Bishop Noll never sees a class above its enrollment.  In your version of multiplier, it goes up two classes even if it only fields a team of 12 kids every season.  BN is strongly advised to contract due to extreme low numbers and multiple seasons of grossly noncompetitive play.

Probably the most telling issue is that there hasn't yet been an indication of why 2.0 should be picked, as opposed to 1.5 or 1.25 or 1.75 or any other number.  The fact that SF could have a team move up two classes and the fact that a 2.0 multiplier can do the same doesn't make them any more the same as cheating on an exam and studying on for exam to get an A make both activities the same.

Multipliers ranging from 1.0 to 1.8 have been used previously in other states.  The 2.0 is a fairly new concept that takes COVID Related characteristics into account.

 

[foxbat]

7 minutes ago, DT said:

BN is strongly advised to contract due to extreme low numbers and multiple seasons of grossly noncompetitive play.

So what you are saying is that a 2.0 Multiplier would be grossly unfair to a team like Bishop Noll because they have low numbers and aren't as competitive ... i.e., they can't absorb/process said assumed benefits that said 2.0 Multiplier erroneously asserts that they have?

[Guest DT]

5 minutes ago, foxbat said:

So what you are saying is that a 2.0 Multiplier would be grossly unfair to a team like Bishop Noll because they have low numbers and aren't as competitive ... i.e., they can't absorb/process said assumed benefits that said 2.0 Multiplier erroneously asserts that they have?

Nolls program has been on life support for several years.  They shut down the varsity for a few seasons and have been playing JV level footbal;l the past two seasons.  Their numbers and non competitive issues still remain.  The 2.0 Multiplier would give Noll a clear and logical reason to finally shut down its program.

Looking at the class promotion list below, I dont see a school that will struggle significantly with its new class designation.  St Joe probably has the biggest challenge, but take a look at the 5A competition in that part of the state.  Its not good and certainly not deep.  

Roncalli    1188/2376    6A

Cathedral   1099/2198    6A

Dwenger     1015/2030    6A

SB St Joe   857/1714       5A

Brebeuf     791/1582        5A

Guerin        761/1522       5A

Chatard      714/1428      4A

Marian        645/1290       4A

Ev Memorial  609/1218    4A

Ritter          566/1132       4A

Luers         542/1084       4A

Mater Dei    497/994     4A

Heritage Christian  462/924    4A

Bishop Noll  460/920     4A  (Contract)

Scecina       427/854     4A

Andrean      414/828     4A

Covenent Christian   365/730  3A

LCC                287/574          3A

Ind Lutheran    225/450      2A

Traders Point Christian   128/256   (Auto minimum 1 class bump)

[foxbat]

9 minutes ago, DT said:

 

Looking at the class promotion list below, I dont see a school that will struggle significantly with its new class designation.  St Joe probably has the biggest challenge, but take a look at the 5A competition in that part of the state.  Its not good and certainly not deep.  

 

By this argument, we should also make the argument that letting a team start with a one touchdown lead in regionals won't significantly impact play.  So when we do the coin flip, the team that wins the coin toss gets to pick or take a TD.  After all, that policy would have only impacted five out of 22 games and that would have only happened if it went to five out of 44 specific teams last Friday.

[Muda69]

9 minutes ago, foxbat said:

By this argument, we should also make the argument that letting a team start with a one touchdown lead in regionals won't significantly impact play.  So when we do the coin flip, the team that wins the coin toss gets to pick or take a TD.  After all, that policy would have only impacted five out of 22 games and that would have only happened if it went to five out of 44 specific teams last Friday.

Interesting argument.  I guess instead of a multiplier we could just give the government school a one touchdown lead at the beginning of any game they play against a p/p school.  Call it a handicap.

 

[Guest DT]

28 minutes ago, foxbat said:

By this argument, we should also make the argument that letting a team start with a one touchdown lead in regionals won't significantly impact play.  So when we do the coin flip, the team that wins the coin toss gets to pick or take a TD.  After all, that policy would have only impacted five out of 22 games and that would have only happened if it went to five out of 44 specific teams last Friday.

Your being unrealistic and making light of the subject.  Stick to the details and the main issue at hand.  

[foxbat]

7 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Interesting argument.  I guess instead of a multiplier we could just give the government school a one touchdown lead at the beginning of any game they play against a p/p school.  Call it a handicap.

 

Would make about as much sense as a 2.0 multiplier.

BTW, from the data, this last Friday.  Two of the five games where the TD, either way, would have made a difference involved PP teams.  In one case, Winamac would have beaten LCC and in the other, Andrean would have beaten Pioneer ... basically a split.  Incidentally, Pioneer is a 1A program playing in 2A due to Success Factor and will remain there given the number of points earned.  They will get another chance at a PP this weekend again Luers ... and Harrell's has them slightly favored.

[Guest DT]

1 minute ago, foxbat said:

Would make about as much sense as a 2.0 multiplier.

BTW, from the data, this last Friday.  Two of the five games where the TD, either way, would have made a difference involved PP teams.  In one case, Winamac would have beaten LCC and in the other, Andrean would have beaten Pioneer ... basically a split.  Incidentally, Pioneer is a 1A program playing in 2A due to Success Factor and will remain there given the number of points earned.  They will get another chance at a PP this weekend again Luers ... and Harrell's has them slightly favored.

Pioneer is the Cathedral and the Center Grove of small schools.  They dont really represent the other 120 schools in classes 1a and 2a.  They are a football anomaly.

[foxbat]

1 minute ago, DT said:

Your being unrealistic and making light of the subject.  Stick to the details and the main issue at hand.  

Hardly.  Since you want to stick to the details, then please go back and DIRECTLY address my post that refutes your idea that SF and multiplier are the same. 

 

 

[Muda69]

4 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Would make about as much sense as a 2.0 multiplier.

Yep, which is more reason for the IHSAA to dump it's primarily enrollment-based classification system entirely and more to a pure form of promtion/relegation.

 

[Guest DT]

14 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Hardly.  Since you want to stick to the details, then please go back and DIRECTLY address my post that refutes your idea that SF and multiplier are the same. 

 

 

I dont like the up and down nature of the SF.  It was a brilliant move by Bobby Cox and his team, but it was done primarily to avoid the potential negative exposure that would come from multiplier implementation.  

[crimsonace1]

12 hours ago, Lysander said:

Roncalli operates under the restrictions imposed by the Archdiocese as regards reaching out to CYO student athletes.  Like the other 3 Archdiocesan schools they are not allowed to directly contact those students/families individually to come play at their school.  A HS coach can talk to a CYO team as a whole (as I understand it) but there is no individual reach out to kids or families specific to coming to play a certain sport. They certainly can’t reach out to athletes (in any way) outside of CYO.  Brebeuf has agreed to that same set of rules.

Cathedral, who initially helped draft those rules (about 10 or so years ago, now), later declined to sign onto them and does reach out to individual families/kids.  

It’s a free country, Cathedral can do what they want....but it’s NOT a free country for the Archdiocese schools (and Brebeuf).

Cathedral & Brebeuf are not diocesan schools - Cathedral is independent of the archdiocese and Brebeuf is a Jesuit school and thus is also independent. They don't have deanery schools directly feeding them. 

But it is interesting (and frankly, not surprising) that one school would sign on to rules, and then suddenly break free, giving itself a significant competitive advantage over the other Catholic schools in the area. But because it is independent of the archdiocese, it can do whatever it wants. It appears a large number of Cathedral and Brebeuf students come from Hamilton County, whose parishes are part of the Diocese of Lafayette. 

[Lysander]

24 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Cathedral & Brebeuf are not diocesan schools - Cathedral is independent of the archdiocese and Brebeuf is a Jesuit school and thus is also independent. They don't have deanery schools directly feeding them. 

But it is interesting (and frankly, not surprising) that one school would sign on to rules, and then suddenly break free, giving itself a significant competitive advantage over the other Catholic schools in the area. But because it is independent of the archdiocese, it can do whatever it wants. It appears a large number of Cathedral and Brebeuf students come from Hamilton County, whose parishes are part of the Diocese of Lafayette. 

Just to clarify, if there might be some misunderstanding, I am aware that both Cathedral and Brebeuf are not Archdiocese schools.

Also to clarify, it is my understanding that Cathedral never signed off, simply that they helped come up with them and then, in the end, decided not to sign....as is/was their right.  That leaves Brebeuf as the sole non-Archdiocese school to sign off.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Lysander

[fenderbender]

8 hours ago, Lysander said:

Just to clarify, if there might be some misunderstanding, I am aware that both Cathedral and Brebeuf are not Archdiocese schools.

Also to clarify, it is my understanding that Cathedral never signed off, simply that they helped come up with them and then, in the end, decided not to sign....as is/was their right.  That leaves Brebeuf as the sole non-Archdiocese school to sign off.

About what year did this happen?

[Lysander]

54 minutes ago, fenderbender said:

About what year did this happen?

It’s been at least 10 years.

[crimsonace1]

10 hours ago, Lysander said:

Just to clarify, if there might be some misunderstanding, I am aware that both Cathedral and Brebeuf are not Archdiocese schools.

Also to clarify, it is my understanding that Cathedral never signed off, simply that they helped come up with them and then, in the end, decided not to sign....as is/was their right.  That leaves Brebeuf as the sole non-Archdiocese school to sign off.

I knew you were aware, but I'm not sure many reading the thread know Cathedral and Brebeuf are independent of the Archdiocese and thus have a different setup. 

[Grandpa B]

On 11/18/2020 at 12:48 PM, DT said:

Nolls program has been on life support for several years.  They shut down the varsity for a few seasons and have been playing JV level footbal;l the past two seasons.  Their numbers and non competitive issues still remain.  The 2.0 Multiplier would give Noll a clear and logical reason to finally shut down its program.

Looking at the class promotion list below, I dont see a school that will struggle significantly with its new class designation.  St Joe probably has the biggest challenge, but take a look at the 5A competition in that part of the state.  Its not good and certainly not deep.  

Roncalli    1188/2376    6A

Cathedral   1099/2198    6A

Dwenger     1015/2030    6A

SB St Joe   857/1714       5A

Brebeuf     791/1582        5A

Guerin        761/1522       5A

Chatard      714/1428      4A

Marian        645/1290       4A

Ev Memorial  609/1218    4A

Ritter          566/1132       4A

Luers         542/1084       4A

Mater Dei    497/994     4A

Heritage Christian  462/924    4A

Bishop Noll  460/920     4A  (Contract)

Scecina       427/854     4A

Andrean      414/828     4A

Covenent Christian   365/730  3A

LCC                287/574          3A

Ind Lutheran    225/450      2A

Traders Point Christian   128/256   (Auto minimum 1 class bump)

Just rediculous.   You have been at this 20 years.  GIVE. IT. UP.  SF works.   Roncalli has one State Championship in past 15 years.   SF works.    You might get 5% support in the IHSAA to support a 2 bump up in class.  Want to know why?  SF Works.   It is enjoyable to come back on here every couple of years and see the calories you burn on this nonsense.  Appreciate the entertainment.   When my Grandsons who are two years old are playing for Roncalli and Guerin 12 years from now, I hope I can come back on here and get a couple of minutes more of enjoyment because I know you will still be at it!   

[Lysander]

I have to admit to being a LOT torn.  

Ordinarily, I would be all behind Roncalli (particularly after what what they have been through the last few years) but I am simply a huge fan of Mike Gillin and am amazed at what he has done at Mooresville in so short a time.

Just hoping for an EPIC game.

[Guest DT]

2 hours ago, Grandpa B said:

Just rediculous.   You have been at this 20 years.  GIVE. IT. UP.  SF works.   Roncalli has one State Championship in past 15 years.   SF works.    You might get 5% support in the IHSAA to support a 2 bump up in class.  Want to know why?  SF Works.   It is enjoyable to come back on here every couple of years and see the calories you burn on this nonsense.  Appreciate the entertainment.   When my Grandsons who are two years old are playing for Roncalli and Guerin 12 years from now, I hope I can come back on here and get a couple of minutes more of enjoyment because I know you will still be at it!   

I have a whole new generation of readers here to educate RD.  It all starts with a spark.  COVID has helped to light that initial flame.  A PP whitewash at LOS will be the next key event.  After that, contraction will begin in earnest.  Stick around for the ride.

[Lysander]

1 hour ago, DT said:

I have a whole new generation of readers here to educate RD.  It all starts with a spark.  COVID has helped to light that initial flame.  A PP whitewash at LOS will be the next key event.  After that, contraction will begin in earnest.  Stick around for the ride.

Gawd, I really do enjoy and appreciate the level of BS you are able to spew.

It’s well beyond my ability.....or even....remote willingness to.

Gotta give you credit.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean as regards “Whitewash”.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Lysander

[Bobref]

On 11/18/2020 at 11:13 AM, foxbat said:

A multiplier is targeted, at least in your version, to a subset of schools, and is based on a perceived/expected outcome whether or not said outcome would have been achieved.

In SF, Bishop Noll never sees a class above its enrollment.  In your version of multiplier, it goes up two classes even if it only fields a team of 12 kids every season.

This!