Jump to content
The Gridiron Digest

Roncalli starting to look like a 6A Program


Guest DT
 Share

Recommended Posts

19 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Exactly.
 

It has nothing to do with enrollment and everything to do with building and maintaining a successful program, starting with the feeder systems. As a fan of New Pal, you of all people should know this.

Except I can name 5 NP kids that went thru the NP feeder program only to go to Cathedral.

Enrollment should not be a factor for classifying private schools. This is why there is success factor and probably why someday there will be a multiplier.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, CaptainHook said:

Except I can name 5 NP kids that went thru the NP feeder program only to go to Cathedral.

Enrollment should not be a factor for classifying private schools. This is why there is success factor and probably why someday there will be a multiplier.

 

 

And I can name 20 kids who went through the CYO feeder system, only to play at their public high school. It’s a two-way street. 

There will NEVER be a multiplier in the IHSAA (we can’t even seed the sectionals) and the success factor isn’t limited to P/P’s. You of all people again should know that. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

Except I can name 5 NP kids that went thru the NP feeder program only to go to Cathedral.

Enrollment should not be a factor for classifying private schools. This is why there is success factor and probably why someday there will be a multiplier.

 

 

I can name 1 Delta kid that went through their feeder system and ended up at New Pal

  • Like 3
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Brettlow said:

I can name 1 Delta kid that went through their feeder system and ended up at New Pal

How about actually played at Delta High School before ending up at New Pal?

It doesn’t matter though. Someone from New Pal of all people should know it’s the way you put your pads on that determines success. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

How about actually played at Delta High School before ending up at New Pal?

It doesn’t matter though. Someone from New Pal of all people should know it’s the way you put your pads on that determines success. 

I think all privates should probably play up one class, due to the advantages over public that they have. I did not think tournament success should apply to public schools.  But now that it has happened, it has worked out ok.  Columbus East and New Palestine have shown the ability to compete when moved up.  I do not think a public school should be allowed to bump up two classes though.

The Tournament Success Factor was aimed at Cathedral.  For the most part, it has worked, bumping them above their irrelevant 4A enrollment.  Just take a look at the number of kids on Cathedral's roster compared to a 4A school, and it will tell you they don't belong there.  The fact they were willing to move back down to 4A in 2019 is laughable.

As for Spegal, the Dragons would never have won back to back 5A's without him.  But would have won back to back 4As (where they belong).

Edited by CaptainHook
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

Roncalli is not Cathedral. They are tied to parishes...just like Chatard, Ritter, Guerin, etc. 

Thanks for raising that.  I was tempted to earlier.

It’s painting with too broad a brush to think all the P/Ps are alike or are governed by even vaguely similar rules.   Even then, I can’t speak to understanding the nuances of how P/Ps operate in cities outside of the Indy Archdiocese.....those differences matter, though.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

I think all privates should probably play up one class, due to the advantages over public that they have. I did not think tournament success should apply to public schools.  But now that it has happened, it has worked out ok.  Columbus East and New Palestine have shown the ability to compete when moved up.  I do not think a public school should be allowed to bump up two classes though.

The Tournament Success Factor was aimed at Cathedral.  For the most part, it has worked, bumping them above their irrelevant 4A enrollment.  Just take a look at the number of kids on Cathedral's roster compared to a 4A school, and it will tell you they don't belong there.  The fact they were willing to move back down to 4A in 2019 is laughable.

As for Spegal, the Dragons would never have won back to back 5A's without him.  But would have won back to back 4As (where they belong).

All P/P’s aren’t Chatard or Cathedral, not even close. Saying Park Tudor or Bishop Noll should play up a class because Cathedral and Chatard punch above their weight is ludicrous. It’s why the success factor, and not a multiplier or auto 1 class bump, exists.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

All P/P’s aren’t Chatard or Cathedral, not even close. Saying Park Tudor or Bishop Noll should play up a class because Cathedral and Chatard punch above their weight is ludicrous. It’s why the success factor, and not a multiplier or auto 1 class bump, exists.

Agreed.  I think the TSF has worked better than I expected.  Except for Cathedral almost sliding back to 4A.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, CaptainHook said:

Agreed.  I think the TSF has worked better than I expected.  Except for Cathedral almost sliding back to 4A.

So is it the success factor or the Cathedral factor? You can’t have it both ways. It would have been disappointing as a fan to watch Cathedral play in the 4A tournament this year although I don’t think there’s a huge difference at the top of 4A and 5A this year once you take Cathedral out of the equation. But it’s not an arbitrary rule on a case by case basis, it must remain the same for everyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

So is it the success factor or the Cathedral factor? You can’t have it both ways. It would have been disappointing as a fan to watch Cathedral play in the 4A tournament this year although I don’t think there’s a huge difference at the top of 4A and 5A this year once you take Cathedral out of the equation. But it’s not an arbitrary rule on a case by case basis, it must remain the same for everyone.

Cathedral playing in 4A tournament created the TSF.  It has effected a lot of schools.  And for the most part has worked.  

Top of 5A is much better than the top of 4A.

I have no idea what you are arguing with me about.  Cathedral doesn't belong in the 4A tournament.  Period.

Edited by CaptainHook
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, CaptainHook said:

Cathedral playing in 4A tournament created the TSF.  It has effected a lot of schools.  And for the most part has worked.  Top of 5A is much better than the top of 4A.

This year? I don’t agree.

Path of Roncalli/Mt Vernon (sectional), Mooresville (regional), East Central (semi-state) is just as hard, if not harder, than Cathrdral’s 5A path.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

Except I can name 5 NP kids that went thru the NP feeder program only to go to Cathedral.

Enrollment should not be a factor for classifying private schools. This is why there is success factor and probably why someday there will be a multiplier.

 

 

I can name you kids who went through LCC's feeder program only to end up at Lafayette Jeff, McCutcheon, West Lafayette, Harrison, Frontier, and Benton Central.

I can also name you a kid who went through Harrison's feeder program who ended up at Lafayette Jeff and then ended up at Valpo.  I can name you another one who went through Benton Central's feeder program who ended up at West Lafayette and a kid who was at West Lafayette who then jumped across the river to go to Jeff and didn't even have to wait a year to play.  Another one who left McCutcheon to end up over at Harrison.  In the last ten years, Indiana's open enrollment environment has taken away lots of these arguments for "someone started at X and ended up at Y."  About the only folks who tend to be constrained tend to be Indy Catholic schools that have feeders based on parishes and the kid who thinks about jumping parishes for high school is likely to be excommunicated. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

This year? I don’t agree.

Path of Roncalli/Mt Vernon (sectional), Mooresville (regional), East Central (semi-state) is just as hard, if not harder, than Cathrdral’s 5A path.

MV was terribly overrated.  They hadn't played a really good team all year.  Whiteland beat Mooresville.  Zionsville, Dwenger, Valpo all very good.

Roncalli may be 5A good though, they looked HUGE and dominant last night.  Should be a great game vs Mooresville next week.

Edited by CaptainHook
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

I think all privates should probably play up one class, due to the advantages over public that they have. I did not think tournament success should apply to public schools.  But now that it has happened, it has worked out ok.  Columbus East and New Palestine have shown the ability to compete when moved up.  I do not think a public school should be allowed to bump up two classes though.

The Tournament Success Factor was aimed at Cathedral.  For the most part, it has worked, bumping them above their irrelevant 4A enrollment.  Just take a look at the number of kids on Cathedral's roster compared to a 4A school, and it will tell you they don't belong there.  The fact they were willing to move back down to 4A in 2019 is laughable.

As for Spegal, the Dragons would never have won back to back 5A's without him.  But would have won back to back 4As (where they belong).

Some years back, Coach Gallogly (good guy) and I spent some time debating after the initiation of the Success Factor.  I, frankly, took the position that we should just bump every P/P up a class and be done with it because we would end up having the same arguments in 5-6 years anyway.

With all that, I kind of think the Success Factor is working.  I actually enjoy seeing what the Success Factor has generated in the way of matchups (admittedly, my enjoyment as a fan is irrelevant).  Still, I don’t think it’s fair to the classes that follow the successful classes ahead of them.  Insofar as publics go, Columbus East and New Pal were able to sustain that success through several multiple student classes but eventually it will catch up with you and one group of kids is going to find themselves well beyond their ability to enjoy playoff success.....and that bothers me more than a little.

To an extent, I’m not sure this discussion is even happening now if Cathedral was not having a possibly historically great team this year...maybe next year as well.  

Nonetheless, I’ve been pretty open about saying I’ve wanted Chatard to play in 4A for years....at least before it was hollowed out.  For now, though, I am thinking the Success Factor comes closest to fairness...particularly with some of the point adjustments to staying up. But I’m not so sure the automatic class bump is fair for everyone else....I sure as heck don’t think a 2.0  multiplier is.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, CaptainHook said:

MV was terribly overrated.  They hadn't played a good team all year.  Whiteland beat Mooresville.  Zionsville, Dwenger, Valpo all very good.

I would agree.  Similarly, I think folks are getting ahead of themselves if they are saying that Roncalli should be in 6A due to a victory over MV.  Roncalli beat 5A Harrison earlier this season by 4 points and Harrison finished 6-4 this year.  Pretty solid given the competition, but would not be part of the grouping for propelling Roncalli into a 6A position.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

MV was terribly overrated.  They hadn't played a good team all year.  Whiteland beat Mooresville.  Zionsville, Dwenger, Valpo all very good.

Mooresville beat Decatur and Roncalli is better than both Whiteland and Decatur. East Central or Mooresville (not sure how semi-state would look as Cathedral would shake up alignment) both better than Castle. No argument on 4A north however but not sure it really matters who Cathedral plays in Zionsville or Dwenger.

4A would be tons more competitive if the SF didn’t exists as some of the best teams in 5A are 4A by enrollment.

Edited by Footballking16
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Lysander said:

Some years back, Coach Gallogly (good guy) and I spent some time debating after the initiation of the Success Factor.  I, frankly, took the position that we should just bump every P/P up a class and be done with it because we would end up having the same arguments in 5-6 years anyway.

With all that, I kind of think the Success Factor is working.  I actually enjoy seeing what the Success Factor has generated in the way of matchups (admittedly, my enjoyment as a fan is irrelevant).  Still, I don’t think it’s fair to the classes that follow the successful classes ahead of them.  Insofar as publics go, Columbus East and New Pal were able to sustain that success through several multiple student classes but eventually it will catch up with you and one group of kids is going to find themselves well beyond their ability to enjoy playoff success.....and that bothers me more than a little.

To an extent, I’m not sure this discussion is even happening now if Cathedral was not having a possibly historically great team this year...maybe next year as well.  

Nonetheless, I’ve been pretty open about saying I’ve wanted Chatard to play in 4A for years....at least before it was hollowed out.  For now, though, I am thinking the Success Factor comes closest to fairness...particularly with some of the point adjustments to staying up. But I’m not so sure the automatic class bump is fair for everyone else....I sure as heck don’t think a 2.0  multiplier is.

 

Agreed with all.  I think the TSF factor has done a great job.  Like I said, the only problem was it almost allowed Cathedral to slip back to 4A, which would have been a mistake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have always have felt P/P school should be in their own class.  One of the biggest reason was  they have no borders  they can get kids from anywhere.  I know that has changes with open enrollment.  Kids can go anywhere if they get  their, but with the P/P they can only get there if the parents can afford it.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

MV was terribly overrated.  They hadn't played a really good team all year.  Whiteland beat Mooresville.  Zionsville, Dwenger, Valpo all very good.

Roncalli may be 5A good though, they looked HUGE and dominant last night.  Should be a great game vs Mooresville next week.

I have very much thought this all year....all due respect to Coach K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Mooresville beat Decatur and Roncalli is better than both Whiteland and Decatur. East Central or Mooresville (not sure how semi-state would like as Cathedral would shake up alignment) both better than Castle. No argument on 4A north however but not sure it really matters who Cathedral plays in Zionsville or Dwenger.

4A would be tons more competitive if the SF didn’t exists as some of the best teams in 5A are 4A by enrollment.

you are forgetting a bout a very large green school in the north

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Trojanmp52 said:

I have always have felt P/P school should be in their own class.  One of the biggest reason was  they have no borders  they can get kids from anywhere.  I know that has changes with open enrollment.  Kids can go anywhere if they get  their, but with the P/P they can only get there if the parents can afford it.  

Open enrollment has ended the discussion about “borders” and that was almost 10 years ago.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Trojanmp52 said:

I have always have felt P/P school should be in their own class.  One of the biggest reason was  they have no borders  they can get kids from anywhere.  I know that has changes with open enrollment.  Kids can go anywhere if they get  their, but with the P/P they can only get there if the parents can afford it.  

Yep, I used to think that too.  Or that they should bump up a class.  But I'm fine with how the TSF has worked out at this point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Trojanmp52 said:

I have always have felt P/P school should be in their own class.  One of the biggest reason was  they have no borders  they can get kids from anywhere.  I know that has changes with open enrollment.  Kids can go anywhere if they get  their, but with the P/P they can only get there if the parents can afford it.  

Or from Illinois to attend an Indiana public school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...