Multiplier Revised to 1.65

[Grandpa B]

13 hours ago, foxbat said:

There are also 26 PP schools in 6A alone in Texas and another 35 in 5A alone.  Indiana doesn't have a single school that qualifies as 5A / 6A.  As a matter of fact, compared to Indiana, Texas PP schools number more than 50% of Indiana's total numbers with public and PP combined.

That's an interesting idea.  So what we are saying is that PPs will figure a way to step their game up, but if you are a public school, you are incapable of being able to step up your game?

Based on this year and last year, perhaps, but based on their history, I'm not sure that this year is indicative of where they will be long-term.  after all, we are only talking about six seasons worth of data points.  Folks said the same thing last season after TPCH showed up in its 2nd sectional championship game in two years.  They've been around for 8 seasons now and their records are:

• 2020
• 2019 9-2
• 2018 10-2
• 2017 5-4
• 2016 4-5
• 2015 3-6
• 2014 0-9
• 2013 0-8

Incidentally, by comparison, TPCS all-time record compared to a couple of different 1A programs:

• Frontier: 2-3
• Edinburgh: 2-2
• Indiana Deaf: 1-5
• Clinton Prairie: 1-1
• Dugger Union: 3-2
• Oldenberg Academy: 0-2
• Park Tudor: 2-1

 

Great Post.  Facts.  Well done.  As I said to say "Texas does not let PP play with publics" is just not having any facts.   Well done. 

[Grandpa B]

5 hours ago, Bobref said:

“Simple” and “easy” are great ... if you’re talking about puzzles. But that doesn’t mean they are “best.” The “best” solution is one that can be implemented easily, sure, but it also should address the problem, and fix it with the fewest negative consequences, i. e., collateral damage. 

The SF doesn’t “punish” anyone (I think that’s the word you meant to use.). But I understand how using loaded words like that serves your agenda.

The SF is an attempt to go right to the “problem” and fix it at the root, not use a broad, non-specific remedy that accomplishes the purpose, in part, but throws out a lot of babies with the bathwater..

The complaint people have about the PPs is that the playing field is not level. But even the most rabid anti-PPers have to admit that some PPs do not use their inherent advantages to achieve football success. If the objective of the class system is for like opponents to be matched (within reason), then only those who use advantages, and are therefore not “like” their other class members should be targeted. That’s what the SF does, and that’s what a multiplier doesn’t do.

And logically, there is no justification for not using the SF on publics as well. No one would seriously argue that publics like Munster & Carmel don’t have a significant socioeconomic advantage over fellow publics that translates to higher extracurricular participation rates, better facilities, and if you want to dig deeper, probably better nutrition and health care. Those that utilize these advantages to excell over the long term in football are no more “like” their fellow publics than are the PPs. If they show that they have had disproportionate success relative to their class competition, then obviously they have tilted the playing field. If the goal is “like” vs. “like,” they also should be affected by whatever tool you are using to level the playing field.

If your goal is to “level the playing field” as much as possible, then the SF is a far superior solution. On the other hand, if your goal is simply to slap down the damn Catholics, the multiplier is for you. Just adjust the multiplier till you get to the point where the PPs are winning championships at the same rate as the publics, regardless of the consequences to those PPs like Bishop Noll and Park Tudor.  Simple and easy, sure. But fair? I don’t think so.

I think I will copy and save this post and use it as my response going forward when I see the "le's kick the PPs out of the tournament", "bump them up 2 classes with a 2.0 multiplier" crap.   Yes C R A P.   This is now my manifesto. 

[temptation]

43 minutes ago, Grandpa B said:

I think I will copy and save this post and use it as my response going forward when I see the "le's kick the PPs out of the tournament", "bump them up 2 classes with a 2.0 multiplier" crap.   Yes C R A P.   This is now my manifesto. 

Nah, just one class.

[BTF]

4 hours ago, Grandpa B said:

I think I will copy and save this post and use it as my response going forward when I see the "le's kick the PPs out of the tournament", "bump them up 2 classes with a 2.0 multiplier" crap.   Yes C R A P.   This is now my manifesto. 

Look, I'm a Catholic myself, but this stockpiling of trophy cases against competition with disadvantages is a joke. I respect the hardnose, work your butt off Catholic mentality as much as anyone, but the the multiplier (or one class bump up) is necessary. 

[IndianaWrestlingGuy]

WeBo’s win makes DT’s miserable life of whining about competitive inequality irrelevant for another year. Must be a rough night for old DT (and Muda). The only way to get heard is have the P/Ps win all the classes. 12 more months of forum futility, lads. Couldn’t have happened to a more socialist couple. 

[Gipper]

What if...

 

only 9 Catholics are allowed on the field at a time?

or 13 for the bourgeois?

[temptation]

Too early to bump this one?  Chatard on pace to drop 50+ and if I were a betting man, I bet Cathedral gets there too.

Its not THAT these schools are winning that is generating discussion but HOW EASILY they are doing so.

[Whiting89]

26 minutes ago, temptation said:

Too early to bump this one?  Chatard on pace to drop 50+ and if I were a betting man, I bet Cathedral gets there too.

Its not THAT these schools are winning that is generating discussion but HOW EASILY they are doing so.

1.65 would do nothing best thing to do is for them to have their own tournament end of story.

[foxbat]

21 minutes ago, temptation said:

Too early to bump this one?  Chatard on pace to drop 50+ and if I were a betting man, I bet Cathedral gets there too.

Its not THAT these schools are winning that is generating discussion but HOW EASILY they are doing so.

That's not the whole story though.  Luers losing?  Or CC winning by one because SA went for two?  Matter of fact. SA put up more TDs than CC did today ... it took a pair of field goals and a missed XP to do in SA.  Or the fact that SA beat the defending state champion by almost five TDs?

[temptation]

7 minutes ago, foxbat said:

That's not the whole story though.  Luers losing?  Or CC winning by one because SA went for two?  Matter of fact. SA put up more TDs than CC did today ... it took a pair of field goals and a missed XP to do in SA.  Or the fact that SA beat the defending state champion by almost five TDs?

CC winning “because” SA went for two is pretty shortsighted.  Who is to say they would not have gone down and scored anyway had it been 41-41?  They had a kicker capable of hitting from 40+ and moved the ball at will for the majority of the game.
 

Aside from that, DT created an entire thread regarding Covenant.  Winning a state title in your sixth year as a program is a joke.  Your stud RB who took over the game is from the other side of Indy.  He must’ve moved to the west side for the superior academics?

Luers has been one of the P/P’s that has not thrives since the multiplier but they are a fixture in the state finals and we all know why.  
 

You said yourself that LCC was wrecked by Covid.  You can’t talk out of both sides of your mouth.

When Chatard, Roncalli and Cathedral combine for 150 will you still dig your heels in?

Edited November 28, 2020 by temptation

[Grandpa B]

15 minutes ago, Whiting89 said:

1.65 would do nothing best thing to do is for them to have their own tournament end of story.

Well it is not the end of the story.    You might get about 5% of the administrators in the state that would support it.   There was a dishonorable time that we did not allow African- Americans to play IHSAA sports.  A shameful period in our history.  Now you want to exclude P/P schools which I believe are because of the success of Cathedral, Chatard, Bishop Luers, Roncalli, Fort Wayne Dwenger, Cardinal Ritter and Layfayette Central CATHOLIC.  Now what do all of these (7) teams have in common?   Your hint is in bold.   

Let's kick the Catholics out of the tournament. 

[Whiting89]

4 minutes ago, Grandpa B said:

Well it is not the end of the story.    You might get about 5% of the administrators in the state that would support it.   There was a dishonorable time that we did not allow African- Americans to play IHSAA sports.  A shameful period in our history.  Now you want to exclude P/P schools which I believe are because of the success of Cathedral, Chatard, Bishop Luers, Roncalli, Fort Wayne Dwenger, Cardinal Ritter and Layfayette Central CATHOLIC.  Now what do all of these (7) teams have in common?   Your hint is in bold.   

Let's kick the Catholics out of the tournament. 

They would still be members and play regular season games against all others they would just have their own separate post season tournament 

 

[Grandpa B]

5 minutes ago, Whiting89 said:

They would still be members and play regular season games against all others they would just have their own separate post season tournament 

 

That would be a big no thanks.  "They would just have their own separate post season tournament".  Let me re-word that for you.  "We would exclude them from the post season tournament." 

[Whiting89]

3 minutes ago, Grandpa B said:

That would be a big no thanks.  "They would just have their own separate post season tournament".  Let me re-word that for you.  "We would exclude them from the post season tournament." 

There would be a private and public school champion what is the harm in that? We’d get to crown more champions and have more kids experience a championship. It is a win win situation 

[foxbat]

1 minute ago, temptation said:

CC winning “because” SA went for two is pretty shortsighted.  Who is to say they would not have gone down and scored anyway had it been 41-41?  They had a kicker capable of hitting from 40+ and moved the ball at will for the majority of the game.
 

Aside from that, DT created an entire thread regarding Covenant.  Winning a state title in your fifth year as a program is a joke.  Your stud RB who took over the game is from the other side of Indy.  He must’ve moved to the west side for the superior academics?

Luers has been one of the P/P’s that has not thrives since the multiplier but they are a fixture in the state finals and we all know why.  
 

You said yourself that LCC was wrecked by Covid.  You can’t talk out of both sides of your mouth.

When Chatard, Roncalli and Cathedral combine for 150 will you still dig your heels in?

LCC was wrecked by COVID this season.  They also aren't as strong this season as they were last season ... with or without COVID.  Without COVID LCC plays SA stronger, but COVID wasn't the reason for a 5 TD differential.  Even with COVID LCC should not play BC to a 28-12 win.  LCC hasn't scored less than 30 against BC since 2008 and hasn't let BC score two TDs worth of points since LCC went 4-6 in 2017.  Looking at the details tells you much more than looking at the meta in this situation.

As for my statements about LCC and COVID, saying that LCC was wrecked by COVID and claiming, as you seem to be implying that SA's win wasn't legit because LCC was wrecked by COVID are two very different things.  Let's put those in perspective as I was responding to YOUR insights that somehow LCC getting a bye gave them an advantage playing SA.

 

Also, as for Luers being a "fixture" in state finals, before this season it was 2012 since they were last in LOS.

 

 

 

[Grandpa B]

4 minutes ago, Whiting89 said:

There would be a private and public school champion what is the harm in that? We’d get to crown more champions and have more kids experience a championship. It is a win win situation 

Because you are excluding an entire group of kids because of the type of school that they attend.   I have been in full support of the Success Factor and could even suppport a one class bump up of the PP schools because of the advantages that they have.  Excluding them from the tournament is just wrong.  

[GC42]

1 hour ago, Whiting89 said:

There would be a private and public school champion what is the harm in that? We’d get to crown more champions and have more kids experience a championship. It is a win win situation 

Kinda like an A league and B league?

Edited November 29, 2020 by GC42

[foxbat]

23 minutes ago, GC42 said:

Kinda like an A league and B league?

Why not just split it the way that folks split travel league and rec leagues and let teams opt in for their league?  That way no one is told where they have to play, that they have to play up, that they get a multiplier, or anything else.  I would suspect that at least 80% of teams would opt in to the "competitive league" for that ... especially if the all-in-tourney still applies.  The ones that wouldn't aren't likely those that are worried about SF or multipliers anyway, but are more interested in having something more like an intramural extra-curricular activity. 

[Thor77]

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

LCC was wrecked by COVID this season.  They also aren't as strong this season as they were last season ... with or without COVID.  Without COVID LCC plays SA stronger, but COVID wasn't the reason for a 5 TD differential.  Even with COVID LCC should not play BC to a 28-12 win.  LCC hasn't scored less than 30 against BC since 2008 and hasn't let BC score two TDs worth of points since LCC went 4-6 in 2017.  Looking at the details tells you much more than looking at the meta in this situation.

As for my statements about LCC and COVID, saying that LCC was wrecked by COVID and claiming, as you seem to be implying that SA's win wasn't legit because LCC was wrecked by COVID are two very different things.  Let's put those in perspective as I was responding to YOUR insights that somehow LCC getting a bye gave them an advantage playing SA.

 

Also, as for Luers being a "fixture" in state finals, before this season it was 2012 since they were last in LOS.

 

 

 

Luers hasn’t been to state since 2012 because for the most part, they were up in 3A during that time. Still winning sectionals and regionals, but more along their actual competition level. The reason they had so much success is because of how long they were down in 2A. 

[foxbat]

58 minutes ago, Thor77 said:

Luers hasn’t been to state since 2012 because for the most part, they were up in 3A during that time. Still winning sectionals and regionals, but more along their actual competition level. The reason they had so much success is because of how long they were down in 2A. 

In another words, SF did exactly what it's supposed to do.  Keep a school up unless something happens to have it revert back to its starting point ... and actually under the new rules 1) it's harder to move back down and 2) not allow a school that moved up two or more classes to drop back down automatically to its "home" classification when it doesn't maintain 2 points at the higher level ... instead now moving down just one class.  So, in essence, SF kept Luers from being able to "ruin 2A for everyone else" from 2013-2018.  Then Eastside did the trick in 2019 taking Luers out in the second game of 2A sectionals.  And Pioneer, a 1A team, almost prevented it again in 2A this season save for an injury.  It ain't perfect, but it seemed to work out fairly well with regard to Luers ... not so much though in 2A for a team that picked up 13 points in two cycles along with 3 blue rings in the same class ... and poor Scecina who had just 6 points in one cycle, less than half of the 13, and just two red rings and had to move up a class.

[Lysander]

4 hours ago, temptation said:

 Your stud RB who took over the game is from the other side of Indy.  He must’ve moved to the west side for the superior academics?

 

If what I was told elsewhere is true, the kid had never even played football until just this year. 
 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Lysander

[temptation]

8 hours ago, Lysander said:

If what I was told elsewhere is true, the kid had never even played football until just this year. 
 

A wise man said in another thread...”do your own research.”

Its not hard to connect the dots here my man.

There are 17 other schools driven past on his route between Howe and Covenant Christian.

[Bobref]

59 minutes ago, temptation said:

A wise man said in another thread...”do your own research.”

Its not hard to connect the dots here my man.

There are 17 other schools driven past on his route between Howe and Covenant Christian.

It’s not easy to decide which is more enjoyable: the games themselves, or the post Championship Weekend whining & sour grapes.

[temptation]

2 minutes ago, Bobref said:

It’s not easy to decide which is more enjoyable: the games themselves, or the post Championship Weekend whining & sour grapes.

Both.  There were really only two “games.”  The others were 2+ hours of a hammer repeatedly hitting a nail.

Not sure what education based athletics stands for to you or your draw to them is Bob, but one of my main attractions to them is the escape from the “free agency” that has diluted the collegiate and professional levels.  Combine that with the illusion that I’m hanging on to that every school has an equal shot at the top prize...which is growing farther and farther from the truth.

One of the coolest moments of the weekend for me was hearing the South Adams and Center Grove kids talking about how they’d played together since grade school and dreamed of that moment.

[Bobref]

2 minutes ago, temptation said:

Both.  There were really only two “games.”  The others were 2+ hours of a hammer repeatedly hitting a nail.

Not sure what education based athletics stands for to you or your draw to them is Bob, but one of my main attractions to them is the escape from the “free agency” that has diluted the collegiate and professional levels.  Combine that with the illusion that I’m hanging on to that every school has an equal shot at the top prize...which is growing farther and farther from the truth.

One of the coolest moments of the weekend for me was hearing the South Adams and Center Grove kids talking about how they’d played together since grade school and dreamed of that moment.

That’s all great. But there’s no reason to impose your values on that kid who originally went to Howe. You have no idea what his story is. Yet your anti-PP bent results in a post which clearly implies something nefarious — that doesn’t comport with your ideals — in the fact that the kid ended up at CC. I doubt you’d be saying the same thing if he’d ended up at Zionsville or any other public school.