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1 minute ago, Bobref said:

That’s all great. But there’s no reason to impose your values on that kid who originally went to Howe. You have no idea what his story is. Yet your anti-PP bent results in a post which clearly implies something nefarious — that doesn’t comport with your ideals — in the fact that the kid ended up at CC. I doubt you’d be saying the same thing if he’d ended up at Zionsville or any other public school.

My values?  While I do feel for the fact that two of his previous schools closed, they were at least in close proximity to one another.  I see this type of story repeatedly in my line/area of work.  There is some assuming on my part but it’s fishy.  Don’t be in so much denial.

Had he ended up at Zionsville, he’d probably be a special teams player Bob.  It’s not the PP argument for me here as much as it is the fact that ONE player can impact a game at the 1A level so much easier.

Free agency and endless boundaries have reached the high school level Bob.  If that doesn’t concern you, you are not paying attention.

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6 minutes ago, temptation said:

My values?  While I do feel for the fact that two of his previous schools closed, they were at least in close proximity to one another.  I see this type of story repeatedly in my line/area of work.  There is some assuming on my part but it’s fishy.  Don’t be in so much denial.

Had he ended up at Zionsville, he’d probably be a special teams player Bob.  It’s not the PP argument for me here as much as it is the fact that ONE player can impact a game at the 1A level so much easier.

Free agency and endless boundaries have reached the high school level Bob.  If that doesn’t concern you, you are not paying attention.

For the life of me, despite your eloquence, I don’t see the problem. And I do keep my ear fairly close to the ground when it comes to high school football. The sky is not falling. Everything is good. You’re beating the drum. But from what I can see it’s a very tiny one. And rightly so.

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6 minutes ago, Bobref said:

For the life of me, despite your eloquence, I don’t see the problem. And I do keep my ear fairly close to the ground when it comes to high school football. The sky is not falling. Everything is good. You’re beating the drum. But from what I can see it’s a very tiny one. And rightly so.

Yep.  A 1A sized drum.

Come down to central Indy when this pandemic passes my man.  I’ll give you a tour.  It’s a different world down here.

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I follow these threads alot and from a fan of a school who last 2 seasons has watched their team get beat like drum by privates it seems the problem is 1 thing: location. I really have no strong feelings one way or another about it to be honest. But it seems all these arguments revolve around Indy, Ft Wayne, Evansville. Of course its an advantage when you can pull kids from all over these areas. If a kid can't hack it at a larger school they can go there. Also see the arguement of open enrollment for publics and yes that works in certain areas. But that isn't a case at 90% of 1A schools. Anyone ever been to Campbellsburg? Let me know how open enrollment helps. So again I think the problem seems to be more around small schools in large metro areas. 

In all honesty I can the arguement for moving privates out of 1A but also see Rock Creek Academy struggling to do anything so far. So what if it was all privates were minimum 2A, but still kept on enrollment based otherwise. 4 yr cycles where you have to make the state title game at least 3 times to move up and make it 2 times to remain up (i think points for sectionals and regionals are silly). This is probably cause true heavy hitters like Cathedral to move but not punish schools like Evansville Mater Dei. Just spit Ballin as I read these threads.

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

One of the coolest moments of the weekend for me was hearing the South Adams and Center Grove kids talking about how they’d played together since grade school and dreamed of that moment.

That equally applies to the Roncalli kids that, as posted in other posts, have almost all, but one, played together since they were in the deanery schools together and most likely also dreamed of a similar moment.

11 hours ago, Lysander said:

If what I was told elsewhere is true, the kid had never even played football until just this year. 
 

Reminds me of the stories of Karlaftis when he came over from Greece.

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4 hours ago, WWFan said:

I follow these threads alot and from a fan of a school who last 2 seasons has watched their team get beat like drum by privates it seems the problem is 1 thing: location. I really have no strong feelings one way or another about it to be honest. But it seems all these arguments revolve around Indy, Ft Wayne, Evansville. Of course its an advantage when you can pull kids from all over these areas. If a kid can't hack it at a larger school they can go there. Also see the arguement of open enrollment for publics and yes that works in certain areas. But that isn't a case at 90% of 1A schools. Anyone ever been to Campbellsburg? Let me know how open enrollment helps. So again I think the problem seems to be more around small schools in large metro areas. 

In all honesty I can the arguement for moving privates out of 1A but also see Rock Creek Academy struggling to do anything so far. So what if it was all privates were minimum 2A, but still kept on enrollment based otherwise. 4 yr cycles where you have to make the state title game at least 3 times to move up and make it 2 times to remain up (i think points for sectionals and regionals are silly). This is probably cause true heavy hitters like Cathedral to move but not punish schools like Evansville Mater Dei. Just spit Ballin as I read these threads.

If I were a JV/freshman coach at a Marion County 5A/6A school, I’d be looking over my shoulder on Saturday mornings looking for folks in green hanging out in the stands with binoculars.

But that’s just me.

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16 minutes ago, temptation said:

If I were a JV/freshman coach at a Marion County 5A/6A school, I’d be looking over my shoulder on Saturday mornings looking for folks in green hanging out in the stands with binoculars.

But that’s just me.

With BD being only a mile away, do they lose many kids to CC? Or is it a mixture of Hendricks County kids and a few Pike/BD kids?

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5 hours ago, temptation said:

My values?  While I do feel for the fact that two of his previous schools closed, they were at least in close proximity to one another.  I see this type of story repeatedly in my line/area of work.  There is some assuming on my part but it’s fishy.  Don’t be in so much denial.

Had he ended up at Zionsville, he’d probably be a special teams player Bob.  It’s not the PP argument for me here as much as it is the fact that ONE player can impact a game at the 1A level so much easier.

Free agency and endless boundaries have reached the high school level Bob.  If that doesn’t concern you, you are not paying attention.

Your comment in the Elkhart thread about Merrillville seems to follow a different agenda regarding gravy train transfers from other areas

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3 minutes ago, Brettlow said:

Your comment in the Elkhart thread about Merrillville seems to follow a different agenda regarding gravy train transfers from other areas

Not saying I approve of it, just saying it’s a path to success.

Central Indy schools pioneered it, it’s time for the rest of the state to embrace it...or fall farther behind.

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

Not saying I approve of it, just saying it’s a path to success.

Central Indy schools pioneered it, it’s time for the rest of the state to embrace it...or fall farther behind.

Really?  Show me one transfer on Westfield who rolled through the north...Or Center Grove????  Quit whining

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

If I were a JV/freshman coach at a Marion County 5A/6A school, I’d be looking over my shoulder on Saturday mornings looking for folks in green hanging out in the stands with binoculars.

But that’s just me.

What?  "Folks in Green".  I could be wrong, but I think you are implying that Cathedral is recruiting kids from Marion County schools?  Is that what you are implying.  15 years ago I wrongly thought the same thing.   I would wager big money that Cathedral had few if any players that transferred into Cathedral from antoher High School.   Cathedral has no Division 1 players on their roster.    Might just be and I know the "hate/envy" club is going to HATE this but it might just be THE PROGRAM.  How about you take your Hate/Envy elsewhere? 

But that's just me. 

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4 minutes ago, Grandpa B said:

What?  "Folks in Green".  I could be wrong, but I think you are implying that Cathedral is recruiting kids from Marion County schools?  Is that what you are implying.  15 years ago I wrongly thought the same thing.   I would wager big money that Cathedral had few if any players that transferred into Cathedral from antoher High School.   Cathedral has no Division 1 players on their roster.    Might just be and I know the "hate/envy" club is going to HATE this but it might just be THE PROGRAM.  How about you take your Hate/Envy elsewhere? 

But that's just me. 

Nope.  Wrong team in green.  Outrage unnecessary.

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3 hours ago, Grandpa B said:

What?  A dozen?  No chance.

I know Cam Jordan (one of their many great receivers) has D1 football offers. Sounds like he's an even better baseball player though.

As Stax said, they will have close to double digit D1 kids by spring. OL has several D1 prospects, couple linebackers, one of the DL, the sophomore TE will go high-level power 5. Tons and tons of talent on that Cathedral team.

And they may not have been recruiting Marion county 15 years ago but they certainly are now. Their QB attended Center Grove before Cathedral. And he was a St. Roch kid prior to that, so you're backyard.

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1 hour ago, TheDoctor22 said:

I know Cam Jordan (one of their many great receivers) has D1 football offers. Sounds like he's an even better baseball player though.

As Stax said, they will have close to double digit D1 kids by spring. OL has several D1 prospects, couple linebackers, one of the DL, the sophomore TE will go high-level power 5. Tons and tons of talent on that Cathedral team.

And they may not have been recruiting Marion county 15 years ago but they certainly are now. Their QB attended Center Grove before Cathedral. And he was a St. Roch kid prior to that, so you're backyard.

Guess we will just have to see about how many D1 players Cathedral has.   Regarding the "St. Roch Kid" recruited out of our backyard, we are more than OK with that as we ended up with Aidan Leffler for four years as our Varsity QB!   We have one more year to go with Aidan.   and he is a Nativity grad in our backyard!  

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I just want to make sure I have this right. I haven't read through all 4 pages of this thread, so forgive me if it's been brought up. Off the top of my head (without doing any research)- the SF this past classification cycle had these teams "moved up" :

Pioneer (from 1A to 2A) semi-State loss to Luers

Southridge (2A to 3A) semi-state loss to Danville

Memorial (3A to 4A)...sectional loss to Evansville Central

New Pal (4A to 5A) ...sectional loss to Mt. Vernon

Cathedral ? (are they 4A by enrollment?) 

So, 3 Public Schools and 2 P/Ps? 

State Champs this year in 1A, 3A, 4A, and 5A were all P/Ps - are we sure this thing is working as it should? 

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2 hours ago, jets said:

I just want to make sure I have this right. I haven't read through all 4 pages of this thread, so forgive me if it's been brought up. Off the top of my head (without doing any research)- the SF this past classification cycle had these teams "moved up" :

Pioneer (from 1A to 2A) semi-State loss to Luers

Southridge (2A to 3A) semi-state loss to Danville

Memorial (3A to 4A)...sectional loss to Evansville Central

New Pal (4A to 5A) ...sectional loss to Mt. Vernon

Cathedral ? (are they 4A by enrollment?) 

So, 3 Public Schools and 2 P/Ps? 

State Champs this year in 1A, 3A, 4A, and 5A were all P/Ps - are we sure this thing is working as it should? 

In the last year before SF, 2012, PP won four of five titles (80%), four of four where it was possible for PP to play (100%), placed six teams out of ten total (60%) and six out of eight (75%) where it was possible to play.  Here's what it's been since then ... so yes, SF has blunted the influence and dominance of PP even with the outlier of 2020 figured in compared to the last season with out SF.

pp wins sf.png

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7 hours ago, foxbat said:

In the last year before SF, 2012, PP won four of five titles (80%), four of four where it was possible for PP to play (100%), placed six teams out of ten total (60%) and six out of eight (75%) where it was possible to play.  Here's what it's been since then ... so yes, SF has blunted the influence and dominance of PP even with the outlier of 2020 figured in compared to the last season with out SF.

pp wins sf.png

This should put comments regarding the "success" of the Success Factor to bed.  But we know it will not.   The "HE crowd" want to see 17% or less each and every year.   

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12 hours ago, TheDoctor22 said:

And they may not have been recruiting Marion county 15 years ago but they certainly are now. Their QB attended Center Grove before Cathedral. And he was a St. Roch kid prior to that, so you're backyard.

Few clarifications on Cathedral’s roster:

Nathan McCahill attended Cathedral and played freshmen ball before transferring to CG for one year. He then came back and attended CHS for junior and senior years. He was a CYO kid from St. Roch. 
 

Re: all of Marion County recruiting - we have kids from over 50 middle schools in the halls of CHS. So, yes, we absolutely need to advertise across the whole town to keep our enrollment numbers up. At $15,500/annual, it is no small task getting parents to commit to that. But, by my count, there were only 3 football starters that didn’t play in the CYO. 
 

Look no farther than the CYO for dominance of the P/Ps in Cathedral, Chatard, and Roncalli. It has little to do with enrollment. 

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8 hours ago, foxbat said:

In the last year before SF, 2012, PP won four of five titles (80%), four of four where it was possible for PP to play (100%), placed six teams out of ten total (60%) and six out of eight (75%) where it was possible to play.  Here's what it's been since then ... so yes, SF has blunted the influence and dominance of PP even with the outlier of 2020 figured in compared to the last season with out SF.

pp wins sf.png

There is what seems to be a detectable, almost obvious, ebb and flow to your numbers above.  In 2014, only 17% of the titles went to P/Ps which meant that certain winning Publics were going to get Success Factored up.  

 In 2015 and 2016, the P/Ps that had been “bumped” returned down and won again.

In 2017 and 2018, the P/Ps were bumped “up” again and failed to win in the next class.  During that same time for 2 straight years, P/Ps only won 17% of the titles again for 2 straight years.  The implication of that is that most of the schools being bumped will be Publics and the P/Ps that failed will return to class of origin.....moreso than any year prior.

What is the result of that Public domination in 2017 and 2018?  P/Ps (whether existing already in class or returning) won due to the fact that the prior successful Publics had been bumped up due to their success the previous 2 years.

The 67% winning rates of P/Ps in 2020 are a direct result of the inordinate success of Publics who were bumped up due to their successes in 2017 and 2018.

The Success Factor has “worked” but the “yo-yo” effect hasn’t yet been fully solved.....although the switch to 2 points to stay “up” is a step in the right direction.

I would add that it’s always going to take 2-6 years for thing to sort themselves out do to the way the 2 cycles work and how they fall.  Again, going to a rolling cycle should allow thing to shake out much more quickly as to results.

Edited by Lysander
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As for no D1 players, Cathedral will have plenty. We had only 7 seniors on this starting team, so this is a very junior laden squad. Jake Langdon has a scholarship and will attend Columbia. Power5 D1 scholarships coming next year for Owen Wood (LT), Cooper Koers (RT), Jeff Utzinger (OLB), Brennan Wooten (TE - Sophomore), Kendrick Gilbert (DT - Sophomore).

D1 Scholarships coming next year for Chris Farah (OG), Huddy Miller (ILB), Jack Goheen (ILB), Michael Page (WR), Bryce Llewelyn (DB), and Parker Spellacy (TE). Maybe a couple others, but these guys are a lock in my opinion. 
 

PS. It was incredible to watch CHS’s Terry McLaurin run down Ft. Wayne Luers Jaylon Smith on that Thanksgiving day pick! Indiana should be proud! 

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