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Private vs. Parochial - Big Difference


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10 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Applying this logic to the classification of schools(percentage of students competing in athletics) P/P schools should be moved DOWN in classification, not UP.

I'm going to need you to show your math on that one.  😆

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25 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Well....yes and no as regards the “hate/envy” position.  While I think we have a much more informed and thoughtful group overall here on the GID, I’m not sure that means everyone here is.  As regards the general public, just take a 30 second peak at the Indiana HS Football Facebook page and it’s nothing but the “hate/envy” crowd screaming at the top of their lungs about “recruiting”, “intentionally limiting enrollments” and “separate tournaments”......and they are LOUD.  In a world that seems governed by a few loud (often crazy) voices on Twitter, it’s more than unsettling for me when I hear and see a lot of the stuff outside of here as regards HS football.

When those of us who have (had in my case) kids who attended parochials that is likely the 95% we hear from those detractors outside of here.

I don’t think anyone here who is associated with P/Ps denies the advantages....but the general public tends to see it as “recruiting”, “limiting enrollments”, etc. which any reasonable person knows isn’t the case.  

So the question becomes how to address it appropriately and fairly...for everybody (including the P/Ps who don’t care much about football).  

Yes.  There are dummies on both sides.  I likewise cringe when I hear "quit whining" or "get better".

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11 minutes ago, Grover said:

I'm going to need you to show your math on that one.  😆

A smaller school is going to have a higher percentage of students competing in athletics. The math is simple. That's why your logic is flawed that a higher percentage of students competing in athletics provides an advantage.

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37 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Well....yes and no as regards the “hate/envy” position.  While I think we have a much more informed and thoughtful group overall here on the GID, I’m not sure that means everyone here is.  As regards the general public, just take a 30 second peak at the Indiana HS Football Facebook page and it’s nothing but the “hate/envy” crowd screaming at the top of their lungs about “recruiting”, “intentionally limiting enrollments” and “separate tournaments”......and they are LOUD.  In a world that seems governed by a few loud (often crazy) voices on Twitter, it’s more than unsettling for me when I hear and see a lot of the stuff outside of here as regards HS football.

When those of us who have (had in my case) kids who attended parochials that is likely the 95% we hear from those detractors outside of here.

I don’t think anyone here who is associated with P/Ps denies the advantages....but the general public tends to see it as “recruiting”, “limiting enrollments”, etc. which any reasonable person knows isn’t the case.  

So the question becomes how to address it appropriately and fairly...for everybody (including the P/Ps who don’t care much about football).  

Well- in my personal opinion-whether they “care” about football or not, the advantages are still prevalent- so I’ve advocated for a simple bump of one class to all P/Ps. 

If that is too broad- then call it what it is and bump any P/P’s with 10 or more State Championships 😜..

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28 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

A smaller school is going to have a higher percentage of students competing in athletics. The math is simple. That's why your logic is flawed that a higher percentage of students competing in athletics provides an advantage.

That you aren't following it does not make the logic flawed.  The "extra" students push publics to higher divisions.  

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7 minutes ago, Grover said:

That you aren't following it does not make the logic flawed.  The "extra" students push publics to higher divisions.  

In other words, a small percentage of schools should be punished because of the apathy of public school students. Got it.

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5 hours ago, Bobref said:

This is the refrain of the anti-PPers that just drives me crazy. So blinded by hate/envy that it becomes a substitute for reason.

For years I said blinded by hate.  But always felt maybe that was too harsh.  I think I will go forward with the "hate/envy" when I respond to the posts of kicking them out of the tournament or the 1.65 or 2.0 multiplier.  Yes, Hate/Envy.   That works!

 

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I played with many socio-economically challenged individuals...making a reference that they don't add to the athletic population is wrong.  If you have athletes not playing a particular sport, then the problem lies with the coach or administration.

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21 minutes ago, Grandpa B said:

For years I said blinded by hate.  But always felt maybe that was too harsh.  I think I will go forward with the "hate/envy" when I respond to the posts of kicking them out of the tournament or the 1.65 or 2.0 multiplier.  Yes, Hate/Envy.   That works!

 

Watch out! I’ve obtained a copyright on the term. 😉

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16 hours ago, DL6 said:

It’s always been interesting to me that private and parochial schools are grouped together as “PP” on this site when their enrollment process is tremendously different.

Not sure what the difference is? Let’s start by looking at Indianapolis...

There are four parochial (archdiocesan) schools in Indianapolis divided by north, south, east, and west deaneries with feeder grade schools. Those schools are Chatard (north), Roncalli (south), Scecina (east), and Ritter (west).

The majority of students at these schools (and football players) attend their “feeder” deanery schools. As a southsider, I can only speak for Roncalli but 21 of their 22 starters are from south side Catholic grade schools. The one exception is a linebacker from Perry Meridian who followed Scott Marsh when he came to Roncalli from Perry.

This is completely different than a private school, such as Lutheran, Cathedral, Park Tudor, or any other non-parochial private school in Indianapolis. These schools “attract” students from across Indianapolis and operate under different financial aid rules than parochial schools. For instance, Roncalli accepts vouchers OR financial aid qualifications, but not both. This means if a student qualifies for the voucher program and Roncalli’s financial aid program, they have to choose one or the other. This is not the case at private, non-parochial schools in Indianapolis, which is why kids are able to attend those schools for free.

Not sure if this helps anyone understand the difference, but thought I would share as someone who has worked in private education who is confused by the “private/parochial” grouping, as those two distinctions operate completely differently.

Parochial schools like Roncalli do not hold a “recruiting” advantage. Roncalli just won 4A state by 42 points but will have zero seniors playing division 1 football next year, while Hobart has two or three.

This is not to say that parochial schools do not have an advantage socio-economically. But there are plenty of public schools that share that advantage as well (CG, Carmel, Zionsville, Fishers, etc.).

Great explanation.  I do have a question.  

From what I see here, no student can leave their deanery to go to high school.  That seems pretty restrictive.  In South Bend/Mishawaka it is open enrollment between St. Joe and Marian.  I believe there is not tuition difference with any students attending those schools.

So the advantage to Indianapolis Catholic schools is much less that first thought.

On a side note, you should be able to attend any school you want in the diocese.  

 

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6 minutes ago, LaSalle Lions 1976 said:

In South Bend/Mishawaka it is open enrollment between St. Joe and Marian. 

All public schools in Indiana are open enrollment also. Unless a specific school system has decided not to take out of district students.

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16 hours ago, Whiting89 said:

can control enrollment?

By making it as high as possible. More kids obviously equals more money. No school is going to turn money down to compete at a lower level in athletics. Ritter, Guerin, and Scecina have all been 1A in the not too distant past. Chatard was 2A for a long time, and Cathedral and Roncalli dominated 3A.  They have all grown and won’t control enrollment until their buildings won’t hold another kid.

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2 hours ago, Brettlow said:

I played with many socio-economically challenged individuals...making a reference that they don't add to the athletic population is wrong.  If you have athletes not playing a particular sport, then the problem lies with the coach or administration.

If you are getting that from my comment you have connected dots that simply aren’t there. 

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4 hours ago, LaSalle Lions 1976 said:

Great explanation.  I do have a question.  

From what I see here, no student can leave their deanery to go to high school.  That seems pretty restrictive.  In South Bend/Mishawaka it is open enrollment between St. Joe and Marian.  I believe there is not tuition difference with any students attending those schools.

So the advantage to Indianapolis Catholic schools is much less that first thought.

On a side note, you should be able to attend any school you want in the diocese.  

 

That’s a good question, and one I’m not certain of the answer for. You may be able to attend an “out of deanery” diocesan school without having to pay higher tuition, but I’m not positive.

Having said that, with Indianapolis being the size it is, none of the high schools are close to each other, so attending a school out of your deanery would require pretty significant travel. Not sure if that’s the same case in South Bend? I could be wrong.

Edited by DL6
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35 minutes ago, DL6 said:

That’s a good question, and one I’m not certain of the answer for. You may be able to attend an “out of deanery” diocesan school without having to pay higher tuition, but I’m not positive.

Having said that, with Indianapolis being the size it is, none of the high schools are close to each other, so attending a school out of your deanery would require pretty significant travel. Not sure if that’s the same case in South Bend? I could be wrong.

Same is true for Diocese of Lafayette-in-Indiana.  Guerin and LCC are pretty much too far apart that anyone would want to make that trip daily. I have a hard enough time making the slog over to Harrison instead of Jeff and it's just about a six-minute difference. 🙂

Maybe if you lived in Lafayette and worked in the Carmel area that might work out. 

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4 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Same is true for Diocese of Lafayette-in-Indiana.  Guerin and LCC are pretty much too far apart that anyone would want to make that trip daily. I have a hard enough time making the slog over to Harrison instead of Jeff and it's just about a six-minute difference. 🙂

Maybe if you lived in Lafayette and worked in the Carmel area that might work out. 

It's South Bend St. Joe and Mishawaka Marian.  They are close enough that one could attend either one.  Just depends on where the parents went to school.  Usually families don't go to the other school.

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Evansville has a coordinating council, so Mater Dei and Memorial have the same tuition and salary rate for teachers. The same rate and number of coaching stipends for athletics as well.

A member of an east side parish that attends Mater Dei does pay slightly more and vice versa for westsiders that attend Memorial. Non-parishioners pay about $3,000 more than parishioners. 

My general feeling is that the non-Catholic/non-parishioner population is where the majority of enrollment losses for the two schools has occurred. The new, better located North HS, public charter Signature school, and newly created Evansville Christian HS have attracted the families interested in private schooling environment without the Catholic faith. 

 

Edited by oldtimeqb
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I am glad to see that the P/P debated has shifted away from recruiting/cheating.  I can acknowledge that their is an advantage at a private school that doesn't exist at public schools.  For instance, a few years ago, at my 20th reunion, we did a tour of the updated school. Included was a run down of student body information. It was stated that 91% of students at Chatard participated in at least one extra curricular activity (fine arts or sports)

 

What I hear very clearly from this post is that fact.  What I don't understand is why we can't acknowledge that the SF is at least a very large portion of the solution. It needs to be tweaked, but it is a very good start.  In my opinion, there is little doubt that Chatard belongs in 4A. To answer the questions I read all the time about why Chatard doesn't volunteer to move up- why should they? Any good coach will teach the same thing, "play by the rules, and beat the guy across from you".  

 

I think we need to figure out the correct threshold to move up and stay up or go back down.  Some schools are moved up because they have that one great class, others get moved up, and fail to stay up simply because of a down year (which I have heard Chatard might have next year).  I think the energy and effort should be aimed there. 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Football50dad said:

I am glad to see that the P/P debated has shifted away from recruiting/cheating.  I can acknowledge that their is an advantage at a private school that doesn't exist at public schools.  For instance, a few years ago, at my 20th reunion, we did a tour of the updated school. Included was a run down of student body information. It was stated that 91% of students at Chatard participated in at least one extra curricular activity (fine arts or sports)

 

What I hear very clearly from this post is that fact.  What I don't understand is why we can't acknowledge that the SF is at least a very large portion of the solution. It needs to be tweaked, but it is a very good start.  In my opinion, there is little doubt that Chatard belongs in 4A. To answer the questions I read all the time about why Chatard doesn't volunteer to move up- why should they? Any good coach will teach the same thing, "play by the rules, and beat the guy across from you".  

 

I think we need to figure out the correct threshold to move up and stay up or go back down.  Some schools are moved up because they have that one great class, others get moved up, and fail to stay up simply because of a down year (which I have heard Chatard might have next year).  I think the energy and effort should be aimed there. 

 

 

Spot on. The Success Factor hasn’t kept Chatard and Roncalli up a class because the IHSAA refuses to separate those two in the sectional when they’re both in 4A (next year). Same can be said for when Roncalli moved up to 5A. Cathedral was in their sectional while New Pal went north.

Want to keep Chatard/Roncalli/Cathedral up a class? Quit putting them in the same sectional for a big $$$ gate. It screws up the purpose of the success factor.

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32 minutes ago, DL6 said:

Spot on. The Success Factor hasn’t kept Chatard and Roncalli up a class because the IHSAA refuses to separate those two in the sectional when they’re both in 4A (next year). Same can be said for when Roncalli moved up to 5A. Cathedral was in their sectional while New Pal went north.

Want to keep Chatard/Roncalli/Cathedral up a class? Quit putting them in the same sectional for a big $$$ gate. It screws up the purpose of the success factor.

Fair point about the sectionals, but how do you achieve that?  Even though Chatard or Cathedral and Roncalli are on opposite sides of Indy, that typically is close enough to legitimately be in the same sectional. I think if you intentional separate Chatard and Roncalli next year, there will be plenty of complaints from the other 4A schools that feel they shouldn't have one or the other in their sectional

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8 hours ago, Football50dad said:

Fair point about the sectionals, but how do you achieve that?  Even though Chatard or Cathedral and Roncalli are on opposite sides of Indy, that typically is close enough to legitimately be in the same sectional. I think if you intentional separate Chatard and Roncalli next year, there will be plenty of complaints from the other 4A schools that feel they shouldn't have one or the other in their sectional

If you have Lebanon and Western which are in Sectional 22 which is north of almost all of the teams in Sectional 21, it would not be hard at all to separate Roncalli and Chatard.

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