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Private vs. Parochial - Big Difference


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36 minutes ago, LaSalle Lions 1976 said:

If you look in the Unified Sports section, it has the rules for eligibility.  A non diploma students has to make progress on their IEP goals to be eligible.  A student on diploma track must follow eligibility rule like the regular ed students.

I think that is what you were asking for.

Ok...thanks for clarifying that....I was aware of the unified sports that had started up......I was thinking that you were suggesting the IHSAA had rules in place now so a school could exclude kids for classification purposes in their enrollment numbers. 

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2 minutes ago, Ballhawk said:

Surprisingly have not heard anyone touch on this as part of the 'advantage' that some schools have.  It is no different than at public schools that have multiple middle schools that feed in to them.  You basically have starters competing for positions when they all come together.  This is why you'll see a school with 75 kids on the roster.

Good information.

One thing that I've seen in some public school systems that I hadn't really seen in Catholic feeder programs was the competition/animosity between the feeders that sometimes continues into the high school.  Don't get me wrong, I've been in Catholic school feeders where the stadium has confessionals at the exits for fans to atone for behavior when St. X CYO plays St. Y CYO, but by the time they get to Pope Z High School, it's one big happy family.  LCC's youth program, while it has three elementary schools, merges everyone together early due to the size so there isn't really fracturing.  It's not unusual early on to have a St. Boniface center snapping to St. Mary QB who hands the ball off to a St. Lawrence back who gets sprung by blocks from St. Mary, St. Boniface, and St. Lawrence linemen.

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5 hours ago, Irishman said:

I don't think that is his point.....As an example, we have about 10% of our population that are physically and/or mentally incapable of participating in football. So the REAL difference is not necessarily who is in the building for non public schools, it's more about who is not. With that population being minimal or non existent in those schools, they are classified among schools with the same total number of students, but a smaller pool of them to draw from for a sport like football. 

Honest question because you may be more in the know. If that 10% population were subtracted from the enrollment would that be enough to bump New Haven down to 3A?

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2 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Honest question because you may be more in the know. If that 10% population were subtracted from the enrollment would that be enough to bump New Haven down to 3A?

Not sure....I do think the impact of being able to subtract students in that population would be significant. It may not effect us to that extent with football, but for this classification, we are the smallest 4A school in the 4 class sports (not counting teams that are up for the success factor). 

In the bigger picture, while subtracting those numbers may not impact us that much, there are schools it could make a difference in classification. There have been times where if we look at just our numbers minus that population, we very well could have been in 3A. 

I would even be interested in exploring taking this a step further. The DOE keeps these stats for each school; so it would not be much of a stretch to say for football, how many students in a school are in a pool of potential athletes. So, look not just at the special needs population I mentioned, but at the beginning of the year, look at how many students are even academically eligible to participate. 

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2 hours ago, coachkj said:

The schools have an obligation to the hundreds of families who pay good money to send their children to the p/p schools to keep the environment to the families expectations.  Again, believe it or not, winning state championships is pretty far down on the list of reasons why parents send their kids to private schools. 

Well said.  Well said indeed.  Had one Son who played in 3 State Championship Games.  Had another Son who never won a Football Sectional Game.  Never sent our kids to Roncalli for trophies but for the other 10 things that are on "the list" ahead of that.   

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2 hours ago, Grandpa B said:

Well said.  Well said indeed.  Had one Son who played in 3 State Championship Games.  Had another Son who never won a Football Sectional Game.  Never sent our kids to Roncalli for trophies but for the other 10 things that are on "the list" ahead of that.   

The latter situation has been remedied. 

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2 hours ago, Grandpa B said:

Well said.  Well said indeed.  Had one Son who played in 3 State Championship Games.  Had another Son who never won a Football Sectional Game.  Never sent our kids to Roncalli for trophies but for the other 10 things that are on "the list" ahead of that.   

Indeed. Grinding our arses off to make these Cathedral squads. As of now, my oldest has 3 rings as a “role player” w minimal playing time as a junior in two sports.  He understands capitalism now and we’re confident he gets his run next year. It’s why I sacrifice to send him there. We’re very thankful for our Cathedral experience. Great families and heritage. Great habits. Great understanding of preparation and expectations. Been bliss the last couple days. 
 

I have many other thoughts on this topic though. I think the original post is complete dogsheet. I’ll expound later. Seems like a dig by a Roncalli guy on privates. Roncalli is absolutely not different than Cathedral other than they get archdiocese $ and have absolutely no competition for Catholic kids on the Southside. 

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Sincere thank you to all of the old school GID private school supporters who ingrained in me “work harder, get better” as a response to this timeless argument. I’ve learned that if all of the other intangibles line up, and your public school team has been coached to be certain you couldn’t have been out worked, you should look forward to the chance to beat a private school.

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On 11/28/2020 at 9:51 PM, DL6 said:

The majority of students at these schools (and football players) attend their “feeder” deanery schools. As a southsider, I can only speak for Roncalli but 21 of their 22 starters are from south side Catholic grade schools. The one exception is a linebacker from Perry Meridian who followed Scott Marsh when he came to Roncalli from Perry.

Since you aren’t well informed about private schools, let me help you. You insinuate that private schools don’t have “feeder schools” like Roncalli has with basic exclusivity with Jude, Mark, Roch, Barnabas, Nativity, and Francis/Clare. False. The only difference in Cathedral’s case is we have to share the pool with two other major Catholic high schools over two different archdiocese. We have the same “feeder schools” as you. The kids play their CYO ball on our campus. Etc. Cathedral had 18 of 22 starters that played in the CYO on this title team.

But, let’s take Cathedral out of the mix since you mentioned Park Tudor and Lutheran too. I can assure you that Park Tudor gets almost every student from their two “feeder schools” of Orchard and Park Tudor Middle School. Last year, Park Tudor got 4 St. Luke kids also, but that is an anomaly.  To suggest they pull from all over the city is just fiction. I’m sure the list goes on, but here are two examples. 
 

On 11/28/2020 at 9:51 PM, DL6 said:

This is completely different than a private school, such as Lutheran, Cathedral, Park Tudor, or any other non-parochial private school in Indianapolis. These schools “attract” students from across Indianapolis and operate under different financial aid rules than parochial schools. For instance, Roncalli accepts vouchers OR financial aid qualifications, but not both. This means if a student qualifies for the voucher program and Roncalli’s financial aid program, they have to choose one or the other. This is not the case at private, non-parochial schools in Indianapolis, which is why kids are able to attend those schools for free.

This is completely false and laughable. I can only speak to Cathedral on this slight, but there isn’t a single kid that goes to Cathedral “for free” unless they are the child of a teacher with tenure. 
 

Cathedral has the same SGO rules that Roncalli, Chatard, Scecina, and Ritter do. Parents still decide which package is better for them between SGO or financial aid. The real disadvantage Cathedral has is it gets ZERO dollars from the archdiocese like Roncalli does to fund this financial aid. We have to fundraise it every single year. Every year. So, to imply there is some sort of parochial disadvantage to a private is completely irresponsible. In fact, this entire topic is a complete boondoggle. Trying to find one thing accurate about it as I re-read it. 

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9 hours ago, Woody_Hayes said:

Congratulations on the Championship! O-Line was very impressive. I’m still using things I learned from our meeting.

I’m sure that meeting was incredibly cringe-worthy as I did not yet know how much I didn’t know. Had all the answers back then...

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19 hours ago, Muda69 said:

So the answer to my question is "no".  Have to keep the environment of these schools as close to the concept of Christian Homogeneity as possible.  Got it. Thank you.

So what's your point?  That Christian schools are Christian?  

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Some meandering thoughts:
 

The main separators for consistent success seem to be:

1. Strong feeder program, preferably with the varsity head coach having some influence

2. Access to funding either through the school or the families

3. Program tradition

The schools that are most commonly represented Thanksgiving weekend typically have at least two of these traits. The best private and parochial schools have all three (as does Carmel, Center Grove, Penn, etc.). But all legacy programs HAVE to have at least two. It always cracks me up when I see people from schools with one or none complaining about the P/Ps. Moving the P/Ps up a class would only result in trading one master for another. 
 

It’s worth noting that not all P/P schools even have two, which is why it is imprudent to treat all P/Ps the same.  
 

I have coached at Roncalli, Chatard, Ritter, Scecina, Brebeuf, Broad Ripple, Howe, Beech Grove, and Southwestern, boys and girls. Roncalli is by far the easiest place to coach, even though so few D-1 athletes have come through the program. The kids are loved at home, well-fed, and provided access to supplemental training. They start playing flag football in pre-school and dream of when it will be their turn to run out of the woods. As a coach, you can fall back on the “been there, done that” approach to selling your vision. Those things don’t all happen overnight, and key components can be missed with kids that transfer in. That’s why there have been so few non-south deanery CYO kids starting on the school’s ten state championship teams (this coming from a non-CYO starter on a state championship team). We had 1 player this year from outside of our feeder system - a number I would hold up against any of the other 11 finalists.

 

There is merit to the fact that P/P schools are mostly filled with involved students who have chosen to be there. While at Broad Ripple, we had over 1,500 kids, but less than 100 seniors (less than 300 juniors). We were a 5A team competing with 2A resources. That’s before we get to the fact that many of our kids were getting picked up at 5 am, dropped off at 8 pm, and largely only eating what the school provided. 
 

Socio-economics factors would be the best way to determine classifications. That will never happen because it’s not easy. In the meantime, it’s not fair for us to say “Get better or get used to it” without acknowledging the privilege we enjoy. At the same time, it’s pointless to complain if you haven’t first taken care of your own backyard to the best of your ability. 

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14 minutes ago, The TW said:

That’s why there have been so few non-south deanery CYO kids starting on the school’s ten state championship teams (this coming from a non-CYO starter on a state championship team). We had 1 player this year from outside of our feeder system - a number I would hold up against any of the other 11 finalists.

So you're saying Catholic school teams are by and large Catholic?  My eyes were opened to CYO football when my son played for HCS in CYO.  I watched a 4th grade team reading the triple option. At first I thought the coach was getting lucky in his play calling.  The qb never missed a read. No one is that lucky.  Every week I saw similar things happen.  They all blocked and tackled well. The typical parochial running back that never stopped his feet.  Over the years some youth programs have caught up but CYO had a huge lead.

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35 minutes ago, The TW said:

Some meandering thoughts:
 

The main separators for consistent success seem to be:

1. Strong feeder program, preferably with the varsity head coach having some influence

2. Access to funding either through the school or the families

3. Program tradition

The schools that are most commonly represented Thanksgiving weekend typically have at least two of these traits. The best private and parochial schools have all three (as does Carmel, Center Grove, Penn, etc.). But all legacy programs HAVE to have at least two. It always cracks me up when I see people from schools with one or none complaining about the P/Ps. Moving the P/Ps up a class would only result in trading one master for another. 
 

It’s worth noting that not all P/P schools even have two, which is why it is imprudent to treat all P/Ps the same.  
 

I have coached at Roncalli, Chatard, Ritter, Scecina, Brebeuf, Broad Ripple, Howe, Beech Grove, and Southwestern, boys and girls. Roncalli is by far the easiest place to coach, even though so few D-1 athletes have come through the program. The kids are loved at home, well-fed, and provided access to supplemental training. They start playing flag football in pre-school and dream of when it will be their turn to run out of the woods. As a coach, you can fall back on the “been there, done that” approach to selling your vision. Those things don’t all happen overnight, and key components can be missed with kids that transfer in. That’s why there have been so few non-south deanery CYO kids starting on the school’s ten state championship teams (this coming from a non-CYO starter on a state championship team). We had 1 player this year from outside of our feeder system - a number I would hold up against any of the other 11 finalists.

 

There is merit to the fact that P/P schools are mostly filled with involved students who have chosen to be there. While at Broad Ripple, we had over 1,500 kids, but less than 100 seniors (less than 300 juniors). We were a 5A team competing with 2A resources. That’s before we get to the fact that many of our kids were getting picked up at 5 am, dropped off at 8 pm, and largely only eating what the school provided. 
 

Socio-economics factors would be the best way to determine classifications. That will never happen because it’s not easy. In the meantime, it’s not fair for us to say “Get better or get used to it” without acknowledging the privilege we enjoy. At the same time, it’s pointless to complain if you haven’t first taken care of your own backyard to the best of your ability. 

Well said TW...and by the way, congratulations. While I do think socio economics are a big factor (heck they are in education as a whole, so it stands to reason that would be the same for other areas within a school/district). I would add in the population I described earlier. I do not think it would be too difficult to have a system in place that determines how many students in each building are actually eligible/able to participate in ECA’s and arrange classes based on that number rather than just overall enrollment. 

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We don't have CYO for our Catholic schools here in South Bend/Mishawaka.

We have the Inner-City Catholic League (ICCL)

In order to play you have to attend the school, not be a member of the parish.

It looks like almost every grade school has it's own football team.

Here we have only 4 teams.  All schools are combined with at least one other school.

There has been only one long term coach in the program.  Most coaches leave when their child graduates.

There wasn't a season this year, so the incoming freshman next will won't have played for two years.

Not a recipe for success.

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23 minutes ago, LaSalle Lions 1976 said:

We don't have CYO for our Catholic schools here in South Bend/Mishawaka.

We have the Inner-City Catholic League (ICCL)

In order to play you have to attend the school, not be a member of the parish.

It looks like almost every grade school has it's own football team.

Here we have only 4 teams.  All schools are combined with at least one other school.

There has been only one long term coach in the program.  Most coaches leave when their child graduates.

There wasn't a season this year, so the incoming freshman next will won't have played for two years.

Not a recipe for success.

LCC's somewhat the same with regard to youth program, but with some differences.

  • Don't have a CYO league.  Play against the other public schools in the area.  Some seasons that's been more 1A/3A type schools and in other seasons, it's been mixed in with some 5A.  Just recently looked at playing with 6A just for travel ease.
  • Don't have to be at the schools to play, but can't come from another school unless 1) it's a Catholic/Christian school that doesn't have a program or 2) the kid is a legacy kid or will be coming to the school.  Homeschoolers welcome because most other programs don't consider them.  We sometimes get Catholic kids who are at the public schools because of gifted-and-talented programs in elementary, but that will be coming to LCSS in junior high or late-grade school.
  • Have three elementary schools represented, but not enough kids or mix of schools to have their own teams.  St. Mary goes K-3, St. Boniface is 4-6, and St. Lawrence is K-6.  Kids gets all mixed together.
  • Have been lucky enough to have several long-term coaches, for several different reasons.  In one case, the guy had kids that spanned a five-year period or so.  The other guy had no boys, but had been attached to the football program for a long time.  I coached there for 18 seasons, but had a full decade before any of my kids were actually on my teams.  The new guy who's heading things up has three boys and is there for a while.  We also get some dads who just stick around.  My offensive coordinator started coaching when his boys played and just stuck around after they moved up.
  • We didn't have a season this year due to COVID.
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3 hours ago, coachkj said:

So what's your point?  That Christian schools are Christian?  

Yes.  First I read that p/p schools will pretty much accept any individual with a pulse and $ because, you know, those Benjamins pay the bills and keep the lights on.  Then I read something quite different.  Which one is it??  

Can an avowed Muslim attend a Catholic or Christian school because he believes it offers a superior education compared to the public schools?

 

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2 hours ago, The TW said:

Some meandering thoughts:
 

The main separators for consistent success seem to be:

1. Strong feeder program, preferably with the varsity head coach having some influence

2. Access to funding either through the school or the families

3. Program tradition

The schools that are most commonly represented Thanksgiving weekend typically have at least two of these traits. The best private and parochial schools have all three (as does Carmel, Center Grove, Penn, etc.). But all legacy programs HAVE to have at least two. It always cracks me up when I see people from schools with one or none complaining about the P/Ps. Moving the P/Ps up a class would only result in trading one master for another. 
 

It’s worth noting that not all P/P schools even have two, which is why it is imprudent to treat all P/Ps the same.  
 

I have coached at Roncalli, Chatard, Ritter, Scecina, Brebeuf, Broad Ripple, Howe, Beech Grove, and Southwestern, boys and girls. Roncalli is by far the easiest place to coach, even though so few D-1 athletes have come through the program. The kids are loved at home, well-fed, and provided access to supplemental training. They start playing flag football in pre-school and dream of when it will be their turn to run out of the woods. As a coach, you can fall back on the “been there, done that” approach to selling your vision. Those things don’t all happen overnight, and key components can be missed with kids that transfer in. That’s why there have been so few non-south deanery CYO kids starting on the school’s ten state championship teams (this coming from a non-CYO starter on a state championship team). We had 1 player this year from outside of our feeder system - a number I would hold up against any of the other 11 finalists.

 

There is merit to the fact that P/P schools are mostly filled with involved students who have chosen to be there. While at Broad Ripple, we had over 1,500 kids, but less than 100 seniors (less than 300 juniors). We were a 5A team competing with 2A resources. That’s before we get to the fact that many of our kids were getting picked up at 5 am, dropped off at 8 pm, and largely only eating what the school provided. 
 

Socio-economics factors would be the best way to determine classifications. That will never happen because it’s not easy. In the meantime, it’s not fair for us to say “Get better or get used to it” without acknowledging the privilege we enjoy. At the same time, it’s pointless to complain if you haven’t first taken care of your own backyard to the best of your ability. 

I think this about "says it all".   This coming from someone who has coached both PP and Public schools - inner city Indianapolis Schools.    Most striking comment was Broad Ripple had 100 seniors in a 1500 enrollment.   I continue to support a system that moves schools down based upon a forumula that I do not believe we be that hard using categories like seniors enrollled, Free and Reduced Lunches (yes I know about the number at Ben Davis and Warren and you could account for that somehow).  

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24 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Yes.  First I read that p/p schools will pretty much accept any individual with a pulse and $ because, you know, those Benjamins pay the bills and keep the lights on.  Then I read something quite different.  Which one is it??  

Can an avowed Muslim attend a Catholic or Christian school because he believes it offers a superior education compared to the public schools?

 

At the private/Christian school I taught at (Trinity at Greenlawn) we had a couple of Jewish families attend over the Yeshiva in town.  They had to take Protestant Doctrine for their 9th grade Religion requirement.

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I don't think recruiting is an issue and we know kids move around to publics in the current environment so I'm not sure why this keeps coming up.  It's not the issue.  There are publics all over the state who have CYO like youth leagues, feeder systems etc. but all things being equal they are still disadvantaged in comparison to their enrollment equal on the private side of the fence....why?  It's been said here already, it's not what privates have....it's what they don't have.  They don't have a subset of the student population that doesn't do anything related to extracurriculars at all.  They don't have to deal with that type of Human.  In addition, EVERY public has this situation regardless of the socioeconomic status of the neighborhood the building happens to be in.  All of them.

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1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Can an avowed Muslim attend a Catholic or Christian school because he believes it offers a superior education compared to the public schools?

Again my experience is with two Christian schools.  One they could (and we had some Muslim students).  One they could not.

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