Elkhart High School - Last Hope for the Great White North?

[scarab527]

 

15 minutes ago, DT said:

Here is my final thought on the topic.  And its a controversial one, but one that needs to be said.

The NCC needs more black athletes.

More D1 talent has come out of Hammond, Gary and East Chicago than the rest of The Region combined over the past 50 years.  Merrillville is what it is because of its exteme proximity to Gary talent.  

The NCC can become a hotbed of talent by integrating these schools into the conference.  Take a look at the Elkhart roster.  Its very mixed and loaded with talent.  The Region can do the same.  Frankly, the addition of Hammond, Gary and EC to the NCC will draw the conference very close to The DAC.  It will take some time, but the building blocks will be in place.

We are talking about a Ten Year Plan to close the gap on Indy superiority.  I cant think of a better way to improve the overall competitive environment in the conference and raise the talent bar then by bringing in these 4 schools.  All would be required to met strict entrance requirements.  Some will receive waivers (swimmimng/gymnastics, etc)  

Here is my Lake Ten

Highland

Minster

Hobart

Lowell

Andrean

KV

Morton

H Central

ECC

West Side

 

While I think this proposal could help raise the level of competition within the NCC, I’m skeptical it would do much to close the gap with the Indy schools. To be honest, the only thing I see closing that gap is if the Region starts experiencing some population growth. I think that this actually could happen post-covid, as people could be looking to get out of Illinois. But until some sustained population growth starts happening in the Region, the skill gap between us and Indy in high school athletics will continue to grow. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by scarab527

[Guest DT]

7 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

 

While I think this proposal could help raise the level of competition within the NCC, I’m skeptical it would do much to close the gap with the Indy schools. To be honest, the only thing I see closing that gap is if the Region starts experiencing some population growth. I think that this actually could happen post-covid, as people could be looking to get out of Illinois. But until some sustained population growth starts happening in the Region, the skill gap between us and Indy in high school athletics will continue to grow. 

I disagree   Your two biggest high schools (Lake Central and Crown Point) are on par with the Indy megas.  They both have bad football programs.  There is more to it  To be perfectly honest, there is a huge lack of toughness and grit in the area.  Its been slowly drained away as the factory manufacturing base of the Region has disappeared.  And its not coming back.  Blue collar toughness has been replaced by white collar softness in almost every community in NWI.  

Edited December 1, 2020 by DT

[oldunclemark]

2 minutes ago, DT said:

But its nowhere near enough to get them anywhere near championship level.

Yes, The Region has changed culturally, demographically, religiously, socio economically, and in every way possible.

But the fact remains, it is less competitive in high school football state wide than it was 20 years ago.

Does that even matter to the local residents?

Id bet it probably doesnt, with a very few exceptions.

 

This area has never been consistently equal (in my time here) to the Indianapolis private schools and it wont be. NW Indiana does fine against other areas and teams..
 

Its not a realistic goal for Northwest Indiana teams to rule Indy area powers, It is realistic to win the sectional every year.  We've had this discussion.

I'd rather win seven sectionals in a row than one state title. You would, too.  

 

 

[scarab527]

1 minute ago, DT said:

I disagree   Your two biggest high schools (Lake Central and Crown Point) are on par with the Indy megas.  They both have bad football programs.  There is more to it

Crown Point won 3 straight sectionals from 2016-2018, and nearly beat Merrillville to make it 4 in a row last year. They had a rebuilding year this year, but I would hardly say they’re a bad program. LC has many issues that we’ve discussed previously. While I agree there’s more to it than pure population, I think it’s hard to doubt that the population explosion the Indy area has experience the last 20 years has factored into that area distancing itself from the Region in terms of sports success. 

[oldunclemark]

3 minutes ago, DT said:

I disagree   Your two biggest high schools (Lake Central and Crown Point) are on par with the Indy megas.  They both have bad football programs.  There is more to it

'Your two biggest high schools' Crown Point and Lake Central cant consistently beat Chatard and Cathedral.' they area not public schools. It wont ever happen.

You're selling snake oil to say to preach that if they just buddy up in a county-wide conference and integrate, that small public schools will jack up tradion rich private school monsters. 

 

[Guest DT]

2 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Crown Point won 3 straight sectionals from 2016-2018, and nearly beat Merrillville to make it 4 in a row last year. They had a rebuilding year this year, but I would hardly say they’re a bad program. LC has many issues that we’ve discussed previously. While I agree there’s more to it than pure population, I think it’s hard to doubt that the population explosion the Indy area has experience the last 20 years has factored into that area distancing itself from the Region in terms of sports success. 

Those CP teams beat out some very weak DAC competition and had no chance of advancing beyond the regional.  There was not a D1 player to be found on any one of those teams.  And Merrillville has a tendancy to choke when the spotlight is on bright, similar to little bro Hobart

[oldunclemark]

1 minute ago, DT said:

Those CP teams beat out some very weak DAC competition and had no chance of advancing beyond the regional.  There was not a D1 player to be found on any one of those teams.  And Merrillville has a tendancy to choke when the spotlight is on bright, similar to little bro Hobart

Crown Point won three sectionals in a row without any Division 1 players.

that's not a bad program. 

 

No schools have tendencies. Players change every year.

Hobart is 9-2 in the playoffs the last 2 years Merrillville is 6-2.  Its very 'Skip Bayless' to wait for them to lose and then call the boys chokers.

I know you didnt mean to say that.

[scarab527]

3 minutes ago, DT said:

Those CP teams beat out some very weak DAC competition and had no chance of advancing beyond the regional.  There was not a D1 player to be found on any one of those teams.  And Merrillville has a tendancy to choke when the spotlight is on bright, similar to little bro Hobart

I mean the DAC was down in those years, but CP still beat Merrillville all three times in the playoffs. They lost to Penn in the regional in 2016 + 2017 and Valpo in 2018, all very good teams at the time. They lost by 1 to a Merrillville team that won the regional by 2 touchdowns in 2019. Either way, winning 3 6A sectionals in a row and nearly a 4th is nothing to sneeze at. And I think you’re being too hard on Merrillville and Hobart. 

[scarab527]

24 minutes ago, DT said:

To be perfectly honest, there is a huge lack of toughness and grit in the area.  Its been slowly drained away as the factory manufacturing base of the Region has disappeared.  And its not coming back.  Blue collar toughness has been replaced by white collar softness in almost every community in NWI.  

I mean, Valpo is white-collar, and they’re one of the best programs in the region. Andrean has many white-collar families as well. White collar demographics don’t seem to hurt Carmel or Westfield either. “Softness” isn’t exclusive to either white collar or blue collar people.  

[Bobref]

3 hours ago, scarab527 said:

I mean, Valpo is white-collar, and they’re one of the best programs in the region. Andrean has many white-collar families as well. White collar demographics don’t seem to hurt Carmel or Westfield either. “Softness” isn’t exclusive to either white collar or blue collar people.  

Literally for decades Penn was the beast of the North. Granger is the quintessential white collar community. Somehow, those white collar kids found enough toughness for all those state championships.

[southend]

5 hours ago, scarab527 said:

I mean, Valpo is white-collar, and they’re one of the best programs in the region. Andrean has many white-collar families as well. White collar demographics don’t seem to hurt Carmel or Westfield either. “Softness” isn’t exclusive to either white collar or blue collar people.  

 

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

Literally for decades Penn was the beast of the North. Granger is the quintessential white collar community. Somehow, those white collar kids found enough toughness for all those state championships.

LOL. .....Ok the”toughness” theory is shot down. 
What about DTs comment on “GRIT” This hold any water? 

[Bobref]

13 minutes ago, southend said:

 

LOL. .....Ok the”toughness” theory is shot down. 
What about DTs comment on “GRIT” This hold any water? 

Not sure what “grit” is, or how it differs from “toughness.”

[southend]

Just now, Bobref said:

Not sure what “grit” is, or how it differs from “toughness.”

Ok, just wondering. So this is all hot air. White collar blue collar stuff. 

[vito]

Just to put some enrollment numbers into the scenario (these are on another thread and Morton and Hammond's are after the presumed consolidations):

Andrean - 348

Highland - 1061

Hobart - 1264

KV - 1015

Lowell - 1092

Munster - 1572

Hanover - 748

Hammond - 1596 (5A)

Morton - 2063 (6A)

 

A "closed" conference is NOT happening.  This was done 20+ years ago.  It was called the LAC and it was a mess. OUM states it well: Conference affiliations are about three things - gate revenue, participation across three levels in all sports and the ease of scheduling that comes with said participation.  I'll speak from Lowell's perspective from the standpoint of a fan who wants them to do well - Morton is a great football opponent.  What an awesome way to start your season against three 6A opponents in CP, Portage and Morton (this is why I LOVE the all in playoff format). If you believe adversity makes you stronger, playing those three to start your season does it. 

Finally, in regard to Hanover,  keep in mind it encompasses a decent portion of St. John.  South of 231 is exploding with growth. I can envision them being 4A in less than 5 years.

 

[Guest DT]

The reasons I chose Elkhart as the one northern school that can potentially break thru and compete against The MIC 

Athleticism

Physicality

Depth

Coaching

Admin support

Drive and Determination

I believe the program possesses all of these qualities

No other northern 6A can match this profile in my view

 

[SBFootball1]

17 minutes ago, DT said:

The reasons I chose Elkhart as the one northern school that can potentially break thru and compete against The MIC 

Athleticism

Physicality

Depth

Coaching

Admin support

Drive and Determination

I believe the program possesses all of these qualities

No other northern 6A can match this profile in my view

 

Who else could be the torch bearer and what are they missing?

Warsaw

Penn

Homestead

Merrilville

 

[temptation]

9 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

This area has never been consistently equal (in my time here) to the Indianapolis private schools and it wont be. NW Indiana does fine against other areas and teams..
 

Its not a realistic goal for Northwest Indiana teams to rule Indy area powers, It is realistic to win the sectional every year.  We've had this discussion.

I'd rather win seven sectionals in a row than one state title. You would, too.  

 

 

Whoa.

[Guest DT]

42 minutes ago, SBFootball1 said:

Who else could be the torch bearer and what are they missing?

Warsaw - The NLC is in decline and Warsaw does not see anywhere near the level of competiion it needs to prepare for 6A post season success.  Their best hope would be to drop into 5A   Ive advocated membership in The SAC for Warsaw in the past.  Still think this would do them some good competitively to see Homestead, Carroll, Snider and Dwenger every year.  

Penn - The rise of Elkhart and Marian will continue to put pressure on Penn.  I believe they need a program reboot.  A whole new philosophy.  They might even consider going independent.  

Homestead /Carroll   - I like Carrolls pass first philosophy.  That could be a difference maker if they can get more horses along the lines.  Homestead appears to be on par with a Lawrence Central type team.,  Just not enough talent and depth to make a long deep run.

Merrilville - This may have been Merrillville's last real shot at Indy.  They laid an egg against both Chatard and Westfield.  Played poorly in both games.  Enrollment is slowly declining.  Doubtful they will see as many impact transfers as they did this year.  

 

 

[region]

The LAC/Lake 10 was never a closed conference. They had football divisions (black and blue) that allowed for non conference games. Some schools scheduled cross divisional games, but there was never a 9 game conference schedule like with the SAC.

Morton is a football school. That’s it. That’s their only sport. They’re terrible at both basketballs. Terrible. Haven’t won a boys sectional title in basketball since the bicentennial. That’s one of the longest droughts in the state. They won’t be getting much better adding Gavit kids. Not really competitive as a team in any other sport. Hammond High is even worse than Morton athletics save for boys basketball. Morton’s building is in pretty run down shape as well. Anyone step foot in the Hessville school recently? It’s falling apart and outdated. Until they can prove that they’ll have full JV/some Frosh teams and be fairly competitive, they won’t join the NCC.

I have very little faith in the School City of Hammond. It’s an F district. It’s school board is a mess and top administrative team is a joke. Super doesn’t even have a doctorate. There is constant in-fighting at the school board meetings. No solid leadership. 90% of the residents of Hammond don’t know Elkhart exists. They will not have the same success as the Lions. The city is bleeding population. Also, the new Hammond High still does not have a football facility. And I don’t think they’ll have on ready by next fall. That’s not how you want to start your new program. It’s going to be a mess. 

Merrillville will be fine, especially if they’re 5A next year.

2019 NCC Champs:

girls tennis - Munster

volleyball - Munster

Boys soccer - Munster

girls soccer - Munster

Boys XC - Lowell

girls xc - Lowell

girls golf - Munster

football - Hobart

boys BB - Munster

girls BB - Munster

girls swimming - Munster

boys swimming - Munster

Wrestling - Hobart

2019 spring sports-

baseball - Andrean

softball - Munster

b track - Highland

g track - Lowell

boys golf - Munster

boys tennis - Munster

Morton and new Hammond High would not crack the Munster dominance of the conference in most sports. I believe Munster has won the all-sports title in the NCC every year since 2007-08. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by region
sp

[NLCTigerFan07]

Warsaw - The NLC is in decline and Warsaw does not see anywhere near the level of competiion it needs to prepare for 6A post season success.  Their best hope would be to drop into 5A   Ive advocated membership in The SAC for Warsaw in the past.  Still think this would do them some good competitively to see Homestead, Carroll, Snider and Dwenger every year.  

@DT - this could be very close to occuring. Looking at possible enrollment figures for the next cycle, Warsaw is firmly in the mix of 10 schools between 2,000 and 2,100 students. Heck, only 15 students differentiate them from being the largest school in 5A. Will be interesting to see the official numbers that get posted next month.

[Guest DT]

5 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

Warsaw - The NLC is in decline and Warsaw does not see anywhere near the level of competiion it needs to prepare for 6A post season success.  Their best hope would be to drop into 5A   Ive advocated membership in The SAC for Warsaw in the past.  Still think this would do them some good competitively to see Homestead, Carroll, Snider and Dwenger every year.  

@DT - this could be very close to occuring. Looking at possible enrollment figures for the next cycle, Warsaw is firmly in the mix of 10 schools between 2,000 and 2,100 students. Heck, only 15 students differentiate them from being the largest school in 5A. Will be interesting to see the official numbers that get posted next month.

All the more reason you should be pushing for Roncalli and Cathedral to bump to 6A.  Thats two more slots that can help push Warsaw down closer to 5A.  Dwenger is another that plays 6A quality football and is taking up a slot in a lower classification.

Edited December 1, 2020 by DT

[Muda69]

13 hours ago, Whiting89 said:

What’s wrong with those games? It’s like Purdue playing Indiana state.

The likes of an ISU play Power 5 conference schools because of the payday, not necessarily because they want the competition.    Equating as such to high school football is apples to oranges.   

[Lysander]

Okay...this has been all I could think about when I saw the title of this thread.

 

 

The only thing missing is Geddy Lee.

[Muda69]

6 hours ago, Bobref said:

Not sure what “grit” is, or how it differs from “toughness.”

GRIT is Rural American Know-How, silly.  https://www.grit.com/

As a kid I tried to sell subscriptions to the GRIT magazine door-to-door.  Didn't work out so well..............  

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Muda69

[foxbat]

7 hours ago, southend said:

 

LOL. .....Ok the”toughness” theory is shot down. 
What about DTs comment on “GRIT” This hold any water?