What is happening to Terre Haute Enrollments?

[oldtimeqb]

35 minutes ago, DanteEstonia said:

Why would a school in Indianapolis travel to Terre Haute, if they have similar schools next door?

Why would Bedford, Bloomington, or Martinsville travel to Terre Haute, when they have smaller schools next door?

Why would Terre Haute's neighbors play them now that they are gigantic?

Basically, no one wants to go to Terre Haute unless they have to. 🙂 

I don't know the demographics of Vigo County, but did they consider consolidating 3 schools down to 2?  It might not be feasible or result in a huge school north of I-70, with THS being relatively unchanged. 

[Guest DT]

38 minutes ago, DanteEstonia said:

@eschnur66 There was apparently a feasibility study done on this-

By far the cheapest option is to just renovate. If Terre Haute has a declining population the most cost-effective thing they could do would be to renovate the three current high schools, and close down their feeder middle schools, similar to what EVSC did with North J/SHS. 

 

Source: https://terrehautenews.net/2020/02/17/the-case-for-a-unified-central-terre-haute-high-school/

If you factor operating costs into the equation, Option 5 begins to look more attractive.  With Option 5 you are operating 2 schools instead of 3, and you have a brand new state of the art facility to educate Vigo County students for the next 100 years.

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by DT

[DanteEstonia]

6 minutes ago, DT said:

for the next 100 years

Now that’s funny!

[NLCTigerFan07]

2 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

@eschnur66 There was apparently a feasibility study done on this-

By far the cheapest option is to just renovate. If Terre Haute has a declining population the most cost-effective thing they could do would be to renovate the three current high schools, and close down their feeder middle schools, similar to what EVSC did with North J/SHS. 

*initially it would be the most "cost-effective" thing. But when schools consolidate, it's more about the long term savings that drive these ideas, especially among administrative costs. Why pay for two principal's salary's of $100K+ when you can pay for one? Why pay 8 assistant principals salaries when you can pay 4-6? Why pay 2 ADs and 2 Asst. ADs when you can pay 1 AD and 1-2 Asst ADs? etc etc.

I have absolutley no dog in the fight here and could care less either way, but wanted to point this point that the feasibility study you provided (which is awesome thanks for sharing that) is only concerning construction comparisons and not the overall savings consolidation looks at. For example, in Elkhart, it's not like they built a brand new high school. They just made Elkhart Central's building the Elkhart High School East and the Elkhart Memorial building into Elkhart High School West. I think each school has different types of "Schools of Study" that their students choose to go into.

Edited January 5, 2021 by NLCTigerFan07

[Titan32]

5 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

@eschnur66 There was apparently a feasibility study done on this-

By far the cheapest option is to just renovate. If Terre Haute has a declining population the most cost-effective thing they could do would be to renovate the three current high schools, and close down their feeder middle schools, similar to what EVSC did with North J/SHS. 

 

Source: https://terrehautenews.net/2020/02/17/the-case-for-a-unified-central-terre-haute-high-school/

What would the enrollment be of the two schools in Option 5?

[DanteEstonia]

4 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

Why pay for two principal's salary's of $100K+ when you can pay for one? Why pay 8 assistant principals salaries when you can pay 4-6?

Big schools use the same amount of administrators.

https://bdhs.wayne.k12.in.us/staff/administrative_staff/

[oldtimeqb]

3 hours ago, Titan32 said:

What would the enrollment be of the two schools in Option 5?

It appears to be in really small letters. Option 4 seems to keep the other 3 schools the same but adds a 4th school (East Vigo) at around 1,200.

Option 5 removes THN/THS and makes East Vigo large (3,800).

All 5 options keep West Vigo, which is the smallest currently.  I assume that would be unchanged as 3,800 is close to the current enrollments of N&S. Keeping it must make sense geographically - I would guess?

Edited January 6, 2021 by oldtimeqb

[Titan32]

3 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

It appears to be in really small letters. Option 4 seems to keep the other 3 schools the same but adds a 4th school (East Vigo) at around 1,200.

Option 5 removes THN/THS and makes East Vigo large (3,800).

All 5 options keep West Vigo, which is the smallest currently.  I assume that would be unchanged as 3,800 is close to the current enrollments of N&S. Keeping it must make sense geographically - I would guess?

Put my readers on....I see it now (thanks!).  That would be a really big school...especially to be on an island like that.

[NLCTigerFan07]

17 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

Big schools use the same amount of administrators.

https://bdhs.wayne.k12.in.us/staff/administrative_staff/

You are making a comparison to one of the largest schools in the state, but at the same time you proved the point. When comparing North and South to Ben Davis, Ben Davis has 5 less administrative positions.

	North	South	Combined	Ben Davis
Principal	1	1	2	1
Asst. Principal	2	2	4	5
Deans	3	3	6	2
AD	1	1	2	1
Total	7	7	14	9

Again, I could care less either way if any school consolidates. But it is not factual saying "big schools use the same amount of administrators". It's one of the main reasons schools consider consolidation.

[Miner_Pride]

I just got thru this topic....  I feel like THN and THS have always been on a island...   Northview has grown alot... but they used to be Brazil , Van Buren, and maybe Staunton? So in my days of high school at Linton... there wasn't any school near the size of the TH schools other than Indy or Evansville.  Vincennes Lincoln was bigger back then it seems.  I know when my Dad was head coach at Sullivan in early 70's THN and THS were on the schedule, as was Schulte.. they were always tough parochial school that closed down in 1977.  Linton played them as well.  Can't imagine ever seeing WEst Vigo in with the THN or THS combination... to me West Terre Haute is a whole other place...  Someone also mentioned distance...  the Vigo line dang near reaches Farmersburg in Northern Sullivan County.  and you can drive a good distance past Riley (THN), and then there's way out in Prairie Creek and Pimento etc....  Does anyone remember when there was a Terre Haute State high school.  I recall Linton playing them in Basketball.  They closed as well... in 1978.    My personal feeling is they should do nothing.  Who knows is any industry or businesses will come to Terre Haute down the line.  I know there's been all sorts of up and down on a casino that should bring jobs... also a lot of construction for things like prison, convention center, etc... but will they bring people into town?   I am a small town guy.. and I like small town schools.   I wouldn't have wanted to be in a school of 4,000-5,000.  I know there are advantages to it... but I think there are disadvantages as well... kids fall through the cracks..er holes... get lost.   

[wvigo13]

On 1/6/2021 at 12:16 PM, Miner_Pride said:

I just got thru this topic....  I feel like THN and THS have always been on a island...   Northview has grown alot... but they used to be Brazil , Van Buren, and maybe Staunton? So in my days of high school at Linton... there wasn't any school near the size of the TH schools other than Indy or Evansville.  Vincennes Lincoln was bigger back then it seems.  I know when my Dad was head coach at Sullivan in early 70's THN and THS were on the schedule, as was Schulte.. they were always tough parochial school that closed down in 1977.  Linton played them as well.  Can't imagine ever seeing WEst Vigo in with the THN or THS combination... to me West Terre Haute is a whole other place...  Someone also mentioned distance...  the Vigo line dang near reaches Farmersburg in Northern Sullivan County.  and you can drive a good distance past Riley (THN), and then there's way out in Prairie Creek and Pimento etc....  Does anyone remember when there was a Terre Haute State high school.  I recall Linton playing them in Basketball.  They closed as well... in 1978.    My personal feeling is they should do nothing.  Who knows is any industry or businesses will come to Terre Haute down the line.  I know there's been all sorts of up and down on a casino that should bring jobs... also a lot of construction for things like prison, convention center, etc... but will they bring people into town?   I am a small town guy.. and I like small town schools.   I wouldn't have wanted to be in a school of 4,000-5,000.  I know there are advantages to it... but I think there are disadvantages as well... kids fall through the cracks..er holes... get lost.   

I went to West Vigo and I loved the small school feel. I loved knowing everyone in the building and all the teachers knew who you were. It was a personal thing. All the administrators knew you from middle-high school. If any of you have ever been to WV, you know how small it is. It has 2 hallways that lead from the gym to the school office. Back hallway leads to the middle school and cafeteria. I couldn't imagine going to school of 2,000-4,000 kids. 

 

Back to the topic. The renovation is good idea but then you have the same issue arise again, they don't have the money to keep the schools going. They've already closed a few and are closing more after this year. They've even raised our taxes to help and it doesn't feel like it is. Vigo County is losing money because kids leave the area and VC doesn't get the money they once got for them. WV's enrollment is down from when I was in school. It was around 580-590 when I graduated in 2011. Now it's around 515. Not a huge decline, but it's there. I think THN used to have just under 2,000 kids. Now around 1,700. 

The conference thing is interesting. They could play as an independent. THN and THS already play their fair share of small schools in other sports besides football. 

[HoopsCoach]

1 hour ago, wvigo13 said:

WV's enrollment is down from when I was in school. It was around 580-590 when I graduated in 2011. Now it's around 515. Not a huge decline, but it's there. I think THN used to have just under 2,000 kids. Now around 1,700.

Enrollments from count day this year were West Vigo 518, TH North 1431, and TH South 1463.

[DanteEstonia]

Relevant:

 

[DanteEstonia]

On 1/5/2021 at 9:07 AM, NLCTigerFan07 said:

*initially it would be the most "cost-effective" thing. But when schools consolidate, it's more about the long term savings that drive these ideas, especially among administrative costs. Why pay for two principal's salary's of $100K+ when you can pay for one? Why pay 8 assistant principals salaries when you can pay 4-6? Why pay 2 ADs and 2 Asst. ADs when you can pay 1 AD and 1-2 Asst ADs? etc etc.

How much do these places pay administrators? I'd estimate, without looking at Gateway data, that the admin costs at Ben Davis are higher than what Terre Haute North and South are now, as a school that size would require lots of resources to manage. I can't see a lot of perks in being an admin at Ben Davis, as there are smaller schools that pay more. 

[CheapSeats]

Has Terre Haute North named a coach yet?

[Tommy]

On 12/4/2020 at 11:11 AM, DT said:

Terre Haute is not an industrial town like the northern cities

It's a college town

Something else is amiss

 

Seems a lot like Elkhart where a consolidation might be in the future

Michigan City is now the 4th smallest school in enrollment in class 5A.

[wvigo13]

On 1/30/2021 at 10:24 PM, CheapSeats said:

Has Terre Haute North named a coach yet?

They have not. I haven't heard anything on that front. Been really quiet.

[DanteEstonia]

https://www.tribstar.com/sports/local_high_school_sports/todd-aaron-golden-vigo-high-school-concepts-have-the-imagination-running-wild/article_edeb50d5-dfef-5d28-996a-87f0ab89e29b.html

 

From the Article:

Quote

In April, the Vigo County School Corporation is having eight community meetings to get feedback on the future of Vigo County's high schools. To that end, there are eight concepts that VCSC is considering for the path forward.

Let's be very, very clear — sports is unlikely to have anything to do with whatever decision is made. And frankly? Sports should have nothing to do with whatever path VCSC chooses to go down. Whatever choice is made is one that ought to be made with the educational interests of Vigo County's students first and only.

Having said all of that? This is the sports section, and Vigo County high school sports are a big part of what we do and what you're interested in. If any path outside of the status quo is taken, Vigo County high school sports will have its first major shake-up since 1978 when State High closed. 

Think about this. As many Vigo County generations have grown up in a North, South and West Vigo world than those who grew up in the previous city school-township school universe. So any deviation from the current state of affairs is fascinating to think about going forward.

So even though education (and budget) should determine the final choice, there's no harm in speculating what could happen if the Vigo County high school sports world, is there?

Let's look at the concepts.

• Concepts 1-3 — All of these involve keeping the current high schools open in some form, but each of them might mean different things for athletics.

Concept 1 involves additions and renovations to current buildings. Whether that would include renovations to athletic facilities? Unknown, but this would be the plan that would likely have the least impact on the status quo.

Concept 2 is more involved as it would involve Concept 1, plus demolition or reconstruction of "major building/site components". This likely would involve the athletic facilities, at least the ones that house indoor sports. Just don't touch West Vigo's Green Dome (the oldest gym in the county), it's perfect! 

Concept 3 involves a complete rebuild. Obviously, this would mean new gyms, and very likely, new outdoor athletic facilities as well, given that it's unlikely (to me, anyway) that these new buildings would be built on the existing footprint of the current ones. The available land is where the outdoor athletic facilities are located.

Honestly, when I look at athletics facilities, I wonder if some sports could do with what swimming has done and have a unified facility. What if, instead of three soccer facilities being built, one very good one is constructed at one of the campuses? One that could host postseason tournaments instead of having Vigo schools shipped all over the state?

Could this concept be repeated for tennis, football, baseball and softball? A part of me thinks it's a good idea, another part of me thinks not and that it's good for each school to have its own identity and home-field advantage. And then the realist in me knows it would be one helluva fight for which school gets what field.

Maybe VCSC could put swanky unified athletic facilities on their own land somewhere in the county? Perhaps sound in theory, but probably not on the balance sheet, but hey, I'm a taxpayer, I get to have some fun spending that money!

• Concept 4 — The dream is reality! Four Vigo County high schools! I've always wondered how different Vigo County athletic fortunes would have been if three new high schools were built in the early 1970s instead of two.

I like this concept from an educational standpoint, because I think having four schools means having smaller classrooms, etc., for the students. But we're not here to talk about that, what about sports?

The first thought that jumps to mind is enrollment. By the IHSAA's numbers, the combined enrollment of South, North and West is 3,717. We know enrollment is going down, so let's pare it down to 3,500 for the sake of this column.

That works out to 875 students per school, if they were split evenly. That would make North and South too small for Conference Indiana, but it would allow for the formation of a conference that would have more similar-sized schools. Four Vigo schools, plus Northview, Greencastle, Owen Valley, Edgewood and Sullivan or even Vincennes Lincoln if it wants out of the Southern Indiana Athletic Conference.

That, my friends, is a Western Indiana-based conference I'd love to see. Terre Haute schools would not be competing at the 4A level anymore, but this would be one heck of a 3A area.

I also think this plan would create more athletic opportunities for more kids. I'm always in favor of that.

The final part of the four-school concept that intrigues me is purely historical. West Vigo would keep its identity, but rather than North, South and East Vigo, boring geographic designations all, you could even turn back the page and name the new versions of these schools Garfield (North), Gerstmeyer (East) and Wiley (South). That might not go down well with alumni of the old township schools, but it would be supremely cool to see Garfield-Wiley or Garfield-Gerstmeyer 2.0.

• Concept 5 and Concept 8 — Concept 5 would have North and South demolished, West Vigo is rebuilt, and a new East Vigo is built. Concept 8 involves closing West Vigo and rebuilding North and South.

Vigo County drops down to two high schools in both concepts. West Vigo would pick up enrollment and both West and East schools would likely take North and South's places in Conference Indiana in Concept 5, I suppose. In Concept 8, North and South are bigger and remain in Conference Indiana.

Competitively, this would consolidate talent into two schools instead of three. In theory, that would create a bigger gulf of talent at two schools, but I'm not sure it plays out that way historically. I have nothing to back this up, but it seems to me that consolidation is bad for athletics in the sense that in pre-consolidation days, each community had an outlet for athletes and a motivation to keep a pool of athletes competitve.

What I mean by that is that the effect of putting together two schools of athletes is a short-term effect. After a few years, that advantage dissipates. At some schools, it doesn't matter, but at others, it makes all of the difference if the individual communities that make up a consolidation see their athletes do other things if they don't feel they have opportunity.

The other problem with Concept 8, it means the area's west of the Wabash River lose their community identity. I'm not in favor of that. Right now, West Vigo means west of the river. It's a distinct area with its own culture and pride. And the Green Dome, and I've already made my feelings clear on that!

From an athletic point of view, I like these concepts the least.

• Concepts 6-7 — Both concepts involve one giant Vigo County High School, either at a new site or at the current site of North or South.

As mentioned, I wouldn't like West Vigo's identity to be lost. On other fronts, the possibilities of this are both enticing and challenging.

Having a mega high school with 3,500-ish students would make Vigo County High the sixth-largest school in the state. The only schools that would be larger would be Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central, Indianapolis North Central and Fishers.

The mind begins to crackle at the thought of a mega-Vigo County 6A powerhouse running herd over minnows like the Bloomington schools and the west-suburban Indy schools North and South currently play in sectionals. What school could withstand the combined might of three high schools combined into one? State championships would beckon!

Well, maybe. Then again, I also struggle to think what schools a mega-Vigo County High School would play. Conference Indiana? Maybe they'd stick with the mega-Vigo County High School, but considering the largest school currently in the conference is Southport (2,254), maybe they wouldn't. 

It's doubtful an Indy-area conference would want to bring in a mega-Vigo County High School. Remember, the Metropolitan Interscholastic Conference effectively kicked the Terre Haute schools out back in the early 2010s. Just because mega-Vigo County High School would be bigger doesn't change the other reason they wanted out — Indy schools think driving to Terre Haute is akin to going cross country.

A mega-Vigo County High School would likely be very good in all sports, but I think it would be difficult to schedule contests. And playing much-smaller area schools would be even more futile for the smaller schools than many of these contests already are against North and South, other than the odd year in five or 10 or so.

It's fun to think about this stuff. We'll see what happens when the final decision is considered.

Todd Golden is sports editor of the Tribune-Star. He can be reached at (812) 231-4272 or todd.golden@tribstar.com. Follow Golden on Twitter at @TribStarTodd.

This guy gets it. 

[Gipper]

1 minute ago, DanteEstonia said:

https://www.tribstar.com/sports/local_high_school_sports/todd-aaron-golden-vigo-high-school-concepts-have-the-imagination-running-wild/article_edeb50d5-dfef-5d28-996a-87f0ab89e29b.html

 

From the Article:

This guy gets it. 

absolutely!

[Muda69]

FTO: 

Quote

The final part of the four-school concept that intrigues me is purely historical. West Vigo would keep its identity, but rather than North, South and East Vigo, boring geographic designations all, you could even turn back the page and name the new versions of these schools Garfield (North), Gerstmeyer (East) and Wiley (South). That might not go down well with alumni of the old township schools, but it would be supremely cool to see Garfield-Wiley or Garfield-Gerstmeyer 2.0.

This is the way, if you insist on government funded education.

 

 

[DanteEstonia]

The only thing certain anymore is that the old way of doing things isn't working anymore. 

[southend]

Who did they name as football coach at north?

[Guest DT]

I read through all the proposals and I like the option that takes Vigo County to four 3A schools.  The area is such an outler that the 4 school option gives Vigo an opportunity to create a new 8 to 10 school Western Indiana Conference with schools of very similar enrollment.  I doubt those folks would lose much sleep over the loss of 5A and 6A competition given past experience.  

[DanteEstonia]

49 minutes ago, DT said:

I read through all the proposals and I like the option that takes Vigo County to four 3A schools.  The area is such an outler that the 4 school option gives Vigo an opportunity to create a new 8 to 10 school Western Indiana Conference with schools of very similar enrollment.  I doubt those folks would lose much sleep over the loss of 5A and 6A competition given past experience.  

RIP Conference Indiana.

I would also have a Terre Haute East HS to compliment North and South.

[Guest DT]

3 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

RIP Conference Indiana.

I would also have a Terre Haute East HS to compliment North and South.

The proposal calls for just that.  West Vigo would remain in place.  New high schools would be built to replace THN and THS, which were built in the early 70s and out of date.  And a 4th school in east Vigo would be constructed.  Each school would have between 700 and 900 students, giving them the opportunity to all play in the same conference and the same class.  Other like size schools invited to the new conference would be Owen Valley, Northview, Sullivan and Greencastle.  Vincennes was named as a possibility should they become unhappy in their new home in the SIAC.