Is Harrison about to overtake Jeff in Lafayette?

[Guest DT]

Reading thru several recent threads, it appears that Harrison has closed the gao considerably on Jeff and might be in position son to overtake the Bronchos.

How did this happen?

 

[foxbat]

13 minutes ago, DT said:

Reading thru several recent threads, it appears that Harrison has closed the gao considerably on Jeff and might be in position son to overtake the Bronchos.

How did this happen?

 

In number of students ... yes.

In terms of program performance, Jeff and Harrison have always been fairly close in how they perform.  Jeff's had a couple of better years recently as they've crawled out of the funk they were in for a long time while Harrison was also climbing out.

If you look at the last ten seasons, Jeff has beaten Harrison eight.  The last two seasons though have been more impressive for 5A Harrison even though they lost as they lost by only 7 last season and had a shootout with Jeff in the lost this season 76-55.

More impressive for Harrison this season though was that they dropped one game to 6A Jeff, a game to 6A Westfield, a game to 4A Roncalli by a score of 49-45, and a 33-21 season-ender to 5A Zionsville.  Interestingly, while the varsity dropped their game with Westfield 34-10, the freshman only lost 28-21.  There are high hopes for Harrison.

[Lysander]

59 minutes ago, foxbat said:

In number of students ... yes.

In terms of program performance, Jeff and Harrison have always been fairly close in how they perform.  Jeff's had a couple of better years recently as they've crawled out of the funk they were in for a long time while Harrison was also climbing out.

If you look at the last ten seasons, Jeff has beaten Harrison eight.  The last two seasons though have been more impressive for 5A Harrison even though they lost as they lost by only 7 last season and had a shootout with Jeff in the lost this season 76-55.

More impressive for Harrison this season though was that they dropped one game to 6A Jeff, a game to 6A Westfield, a game to 4A Roncalli by a score of 49-45, and a 33-21 season-ender to 5A Zionsville.  Interestingly, while the varsity dropped their game with Westfield 34-10, the freshman only lost 28-21.  There are high hopes for Harrison.

The Harrison/Roncalli game was back and forth all the way to the end.  One of Roncalli’s closest games of the season.

[vicvinegar]

58 minutes ago, foxbat said:

In number of students ... yes.

In terms of program performance, Jeff and Harrison have always been fairly close in how they perform.  Jeff's had a couple of better years recently as they've crawled out of the funk they were in for a long time while Harrison was also climbing out.

If you look at the last ten seasons, Jeff has beaten Harrison eight.  The last two seasons though have been more impressive for 5A Harrison even though they lost as they lost by only 7 last season and had a shootout with Jeff in the lost this season 76-55.

More impressive for Harrison this season though was that they dropped one game to 6A Jeff, a game to 6A Westfield, a game to 4A Roncalli by a score of 49-45, and a 33-21 season-ender to 5A Zionsville.  Interestingly, while the varsity dropped their game with Westfield 34-10, the freshman only lost 28-21.  There are high hopes for Harrison.

I believe Harrison will continue to put up winning seasons, because 1) they are a fundamentally sound coached team. 2) the conference they are in. 

I'm sorry, but a program that's any real threat doesn't give up 76 points to anyone. I believe the Roncalli game was scheduled on a Wednesday (coronavirus), only giving Roncalli 2 days to prep for that offense. I feel sorry for the Rebels coaching staff! The Zionsville game was 33-6 until mid 4th quarter. The #2's and a couple onside kicks made that score closer than it was. 

Not if/but when they move up to 6A, I think they will struggle in the playoffs for the near future. I think the only way they get over the hump, is as they continue to grow (enrollment), they start stealing some athletes from Jeff as well. 

[HoopsCoach]

Harrison will continue to grow and surpass Jeff in enrollment.  Their senior class from this past spring had about 470 students.  Their incoming freshman class this fall has 575.  That trend will continue.  If you drive around their half of the district (northern half of Tippecanoe County, split with McCutcheon in the southern half) you’ll see a lot of new housing going up.  If they can keep students from being lured away to other county schools, they should have a nice run of talent coming.  I believe they have won the NCC all sport trophy all but 1 year they’ve been in the conference, and McCutcheon won it that year.

[Muda69]

Harrison is a soccer school .  Always will be.

 

[HoopsCoach]

6 minutes ago, vicvinegar said:

Not if/but when they move up to 6A, I think they will struggle in the playoffs for the near future. I think the only way they get over the hump, is as they continue to grow (enrollment), they start stealing some athletes from Jeff as well. 

If they do end up in 6A, I expect them to replace Merrillville and join Lafayette Jeff in Sectional 1.  Harrison and Jeff are both better than Lake Central and Crown Point.  Whoever wins between Jeff and Harrison should be able to compete with Penn, Elkhart, or Chesterton from Sectional 2.

I don’t think Harrison has had much interest in getting athletes from Jeff.  The bigger concern is probably keeping Jeff from getting some of the best from Harrison.   Jeff’s best player this past season was a Harrison kid.

[foxbat]

3 minutes ago, HoopsCoach said:

Harrison will continue to grow and surpass Jeff in enrollment.  Their senior class from this past spring had about 470 students.  Their incoming freshman class this fall has 575.  That trend will continue.  If you drive around their half of the district (northern half of Tippecanoe County, split with McCutcheon in the southern half) you’ll see a lot of new housing going up.  If they can keep students from being lured away to other county schools, they should have a nice run of talent coming.  I believe they have won the NCC all sport trophy all but 1 year they’ve been in the conference, and McCutcheon won it that year.

The current freshman class is pretty good size.  I believe that this year's freshman football squad is the largest in the school's history.  As I mentioned before, they hung tight with Westfield 28-21.  If I'm not mistaken, someone posted in another thread that Westfield's freshman team was undefeated this year.  I tried to see if I could find scores for Westfield's freshman to gauge how that 28-21 game compared to other teams that Westfield's freshman played, but the only thing I found was a schedule from 2017 and MAxpreps doesn't have an entry for Westfield's freshman football.  That poster was saying that the Westfield freshmen were a solid squad this year which they thought would bode well for Westfield in future seasons.

Regarding the all-sport trophy, it appears that Harrison has taken that from 2015-2020 per the NCC site: https://northcentralconference.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/59/2020/09/all-sports.pdf.

[Purdue Pete]

I’m not that close to the subject but I wonder how or if Kevin O’Shea’s exit plays into the recent performance of the Lafayette area schools?

[foxbat]

12 minutes ago, HoopsCoach said:

If they do end up in 6A, I expect them to replace Merrillville and join Lafayette Jeff in Sectional 1.  Harrison and Jeff are both better than Lake Central and Crown Point.  Whoever wins between Jeff and Harrison should be able to compete with Penn, Elkhart, or Chesterton from Sectional 2.

I don’t think Harrison has had much interest in getting athletes from Jeff.  The bigger concern is probably keeping Jeff from getting some of the best from Harrison.   Jeff’s best player this past season was a Harrison kid.

There isn't a whole bunch of movement between Jeff and Harrison, but you are correct that Jeff had a significant player for three years that was a Harrison kid ... that kid has moved on again from Jeff.  They also had a kid a couple years before that, in a significant position, who was a West Lafayette kid for a while.  I do have a colleague who, many many years ago lived in teh Harrison district, but his daughter attended Jeff due to the arts; especially when the Rohrman Center went in.

I think Harrison would have to worry more about kids edging over to West Lafayette.  I'm not sure about this, and it may just be a rumor, but I'd heard that West Lafayette was moving toward open-enrollment.

[foxbat]

22 minutes ago, Purdue Pete said:

I’m not that close to the subject but I wonder how or if Kevin O’Shea’s exit plays into the recent performance of the Lafayette area schools?

From what perspective?  The kids that play at LCC are almost all from the Catholic schools.  I think there's one kid on the current LCC team who was a Klondike kid in the youth program, but he's Catholic and came over in junior high.  Outside of that, there really aren't many kids that haven't spent much of their lives in the LCC youth program, the Catholic elementary schools/junior high, or the Catholic pews.  There are a couple of brothers who played recently who aren't Catholic, but they played youth football with LCC.  As a tradeoff, my son played soccer for their church school.

O'Shea spent many years at McCutcheon before he went to LCC and also I think he was at Attica too before McCutcheon, so he'd been a fixture around the Lafayette area for a while. I actually think each of the other schools' performance is tied more toward their own coaching movements.  For Jeff, it kind of started with Moore coming in and then Shanley building up that program.  Peebles at Harrison has taken a bit longer to get traction, but he's getting good buy-in from what I can see.  When you end up with the largest freshman class in school history you've got to be doing some things right that resonate.  West Lafayette has been pretty strong under Fry and Overley had plenty of success too.  I'm not as familiar with McCutcheon although I know that recently they changed out their youth program to all flag.  That's not necessarily a bad thing as I think RCHS has done the same thing and has had good results.

Edited December 6, 2020 by foxbat

[temptation]

9 hours ago, DT said:

Reading thru several recent threads, it appears that Harrison has closed the gao considerably on Jeff and might be in position son to overtake the Bronchos.

How did this happen?

 

A wise man once said...

“You show me a school’s free and reduced lunch rate, I’ll show you their level of success and future in athletics.”

Jeff is at 62 percent.

Harrison is at 27 percent.

Mic drop...end of thread.

[Muda69]

9 hours ago, foxbat said:

Peebles at Harrison has taken a bit longer to get traction, but he's getting good buy-in from what I can see.  When you end up with the largest freshman class in school history you've got to be doing some things right that resonate. 

I don't understand the cause-effect relationship here.  Are you saying all these new housing developments located within the Harrison government school geographic area were built and/or school transfers were initiated because of Raider football, and Mr. Peebles in particular?

 

[Muda69]

2 hours ago, temptation said:

A wise man once said...

“You show me a school’s free and reduced lunch rate, I’ll show you their level of success and future in athletics.”

Jeff is at 62 percent.

Harrison is at 27 percent.

Mic drop...end of thread.

Good point.  I wonder where all the wealthy people in the Harrison government school geographic area find employment?  Purdue?  Nothing like those juicy taxpayer funded jobs.  

[foxbat]

33 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I don't understand the cause-effect relationship here.  Are you saying all these new housing developments located within the Harrison government school geographic area were built and/or school transfers were initiated because of Raider football, and Mr. Peebles in particular?

 

The largest FOOTBALL class in Harrison history ... this was also mentioned in another post in the thread.  And this is BEFORE any impact of new housing areas.  It's not a question of getting new people into the school but making sure to convert/maintain numbers ALREADY IN YOUR HALLWAYS.

[foxbat]

4 hours ago, temptation said:

A wise man once said...

“You show me a school’s free and reduced lunch rate, I’ll show you their level of success and future in athletics.”

Jeff is at 62 percent.

Harrison is at 27 percent.

Mic drop...end of thread.

Might want to pickup that mic because why would Jeff have had so much success against Harrison?  For the past 27 seasons, Jeff is 21-10 over Harrison ... there were four seaons where they played each other twice and in three of those seasons they split ... and, as mentioned above, in the last 10 seasons, Jeff has won 8 of those.  In some of those seasons, the only game that Jeff   If it takes 27 years to lose at a roughly 2 1/2-to-1 margin and 4-1 in the last 10 seasons, it would appear that the F/RL might not be mush of an influence.  And, at that rate, Harrison's not going to "make it up on volume." Jeff is a little bit less successful with McCutcheon, but still holds a [edit: 14-10 15-10] gap with them and, in the past 10 seasons, is 6-4 ... and is 4-1 for the last five seasons including four straight wins for the last four seasons.  Again, at a 4-1 ratio, McCutcheon's not going to be making it up on volume either. 

1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Good point.  I wonder where all the wealthy people in the Harrison government school geographic area find employment?  Purdue?  Nothing like those juicy taxpayer funded jobs.  

Sounds like a good talking point until you realize that Purdue's state appropriations amounted to 14% of its FY2021 Operating Plan.  There are also plenty of state-owned buildings at Purdue that should be maintained by the state that end up getting maintained by Purdue due to shortages in appropriations.  Also, there are plenty of folks at Jeff who are Purdue families too including mine ... my taxes go straight into Jeff as well as my support in fundraising efforts since three of my kids attended or are attending Jeff.  I mean if you really wanted to take a swipe at folks who get much more of their paycheck supported by taxpayer money perhaps policemen/sheriffs, firefighters, mail personnel, city water works and roadworks, public high school employees, judges, prosecutors and defenders, and many other government employees who keep the lights on and society functioning with a higher percentage of "government subsidy" for their jobs.  That's probably not a good or decent thing to do though.  Of course, there are others of your other favorite targets, like SIA, that might be better more acceptable targets that get that "government consideration" that you speak of. 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by foxbat

[temptation]

18 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Might want to pickup that mic because why would Jeff have had so much success against Harrison?  For the past 27 seasons, Jeff is 21-10 over Harrison ... there were four seaons where they played each other twice and in three of those seasons they split ... and, as mentioned above, in the last 10 seasons, Jeff has won 8 of those.  In some of those seasons, the only game that Jeff   If it takes 27 years to lose at a roughly 2 1/2-to-1 margin and 4-1 in the last 10 seasons, it would appear that the F/RL might not be mush of an influence.  And, at that rate, Harrison's not going to "make it up on volume." Jeff is a little bit less successful with McCutcheon, but still holds a [edit: 14-10 15-10] gap with them and, in the past 10 seasons, is 6-4 ... and is 4-1 for the last five seasons including four straight wins for the last four seasons.  Again, at a 4-1 ratio, McCutcheon's not going to be making it up on volume either. 

Sounds like a good talking point until you realize that Purdue's state appropriations amounted to 14% of its FY2021 Operating Plan.  There are also plenty of state-owned buildings at Purdue that should be maintained by the state that end up getting maintained by Purdue due to shortages in appropriations.  Also, there are plenty of folks at Jeff who are Purdue families too including mine ... my taxes go straight into Jeff as well as my support in fundraising efforts since three of my kids attended or are attending Jeff.  I mean if you really wanted to take a swipe at folks who get much more of their paycheck supported by taxpayer money perhaps policemen/sheriffs, firefighters, mail personnel, city water works and roadworks, public high school employees, judges, prosecutors and defenders, and many other government employees who keep the lights on and society functioning with a higher percentage of "government subsidy" for their jobs.  That's probably not a good or decent thing to do though.  Of course, there are others of your other favorite targets, like SIA, that might be better more acceptable targets that get that "government consideration" that you speak of. 

 

Look at how it’s trending (the topic of this thread actually).

If I were a young, 22 year old coach fresh out of college and both of these jobs were open, I’d be all over the Harrison gig...much more upside.  Jeff has peaked.

Not to mention, Harrison is growing at a faster rate.

Mic, back on the ground.

Edited December 6, 2020 by temptation

[foxbat]

Just now, temptation said:

Look at how it’s trending (the topic of this thread actually).

If I were a young, 22 year old coach fresh out of college and both of these jobs were open, I’d be all over the Harrison gig...much more upside.  Jeff has peaked.

Mic, back on the ground.

Perhaps they would ... but that doesn't mean that SES is driving Harrison success.  It's an interesting attempt to make it the issue, but there's much more.  What brought Coach Shanely and Coach Moore to Jeff?  It wasn't lack of opportunity.  Harrison's community has done a nice job of investing in Coach Peebles and giving him time to implement/build a program and not running him out on a rail or riding his butt in the first couple of seasons just because there wasn't turn around immediately.  If I were a young coach that's EXACTLY what I'd be looking for ... not necessarily the tax rolls.  If it's all about tax rolls, then at least more than half the schools in Indiana are screwed.  Thanks goodness there are some more level heads manning the coaching ranks of Indiana schools.

Harrison has had the SES as well as the differential with Jeff for nearly three decades worth of school seasons as reported on Harrell's.  If SES were a bigger contributor, that would have reared it's ugly head much earlier.  It would also likely be seen using the other data point in the area of similar enrollment size which is McCutcheon.  Even tossing in West Lafayette, which has an even better F/RL number than Harrison and McCutcheon, Jeff is still 2-1 and only lost to West Lafayette in the year that West Lafayette won state.  They are 2-0 in the last two meeting.  Even against LCC which has an SES that looks much more like West Lafayette, Jeff is 1-0 ... beating LCC 54-0 in that meeting.  Against for other schools with better F/RL numbers, Jeff beats all four on the field and has done so for nearly three decades with two of them and for all four in the last decade and all four in the last five seasons too.

And as for how this thread is trending ... SERIOUSLY?  YOU introduced the idea of SES ... YOU started the trending.  There wasn't talk of anything SES-related until your "wiseman" post.

[temptation]

4 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Perhaps they would ... but that doesn't mean that SES is driving Harrison success.  It's an interesting attempt to make it the issue, but there's much more.  What brought Coach Shanely and Coach Moore to Jeff?  It wasn't lack of opportunity.  Harrison's community has done a nice job of investing in Coach Peebles and giving him time to implement/build a program and not running him out on a rail or riding his butt in the first couple of seasons just because there wasn't turn around immediately.  If I were a young coach that's EXACTLY what I'd be looking for ... not necessarily the tax rolls.  If it's all about tax rolls, then at least more than half the schools in Indiana are screwed.  Thanks goodness there are some more level heads manning the coaching ranks of Indiana schools.

Harrison has had the SES as well as the differential with Jeff for nearly three decades worth of school seasons as reported on Harrell's.  If SES were a bigger contributor, that would have reared it's ugly head much earlier.  It would also likely be seen using the other data point in the area of similar enrollment size which is McCutcheon.  Even tossing in West Lafayette, which has an even better F/RL number than Harrison and McCutcheon, Jeff is still 2-1 and only lost to West Lafayette in the year that West Lafayette won state.  They are 2-0 in the last two meeting.  Even against LCC which has an SES that looks much more like West Lafayette, Jeff is 1-0 ... beating LCC 54-0 in that meeting.  Against for other schools with better F/RL numbers, Jeff beats all four on the field and has done so for nearly three decades with two of them and for all four in the last decade and all four in the last five seasons too.

And as for how this thread is trending ... SERIOUSLY?  YOU introduced the idea of SES ... YOU started the trending.  There wasn't talk of anything SES-related until your "wiseman" post.

“Is Harrison about to overtake Jeff” is the title of the thread my man.

You are focusing on the past.  The topic of this thread relates to the future.

SES, along with Covid, has driven a stake between the haves and the have nots...and the gap is widening.

Shanley left an assistant gig at BD, of course Jeff was a step up...plus as it stands now it’s a guaranteed conference title annually...an awesome resume builder for an up and coming coach.

He’ll use the gig at Jeff to catapult himself to bigger things...as he should.

Edited December 6, 2020 by temptation

[foxbat]

14 minutes ago, temptation said:

“Is Harrison about to overtake Jeff” is the title of the thread my man.

You are focusing on the past.  The topic of this thread relates to the future.

SES, along with Covid, has driven a stake between the haves and the have nots...and the gap is widening.

Shanley left an assistant gig at BD, of course Jeff was a step up...plus as it stands now it’s a guaranteed conference title annually...an awesome resume builder for an up and coming coach.

He’ll use the gig at Jeff to catapult himself to bigger things...as he should.

All of the posts, until the "wiseman" post focused on that. 

BTW, if you want to focus on COVID and SES, then show your numbers?  The only thing we have to focus on is DATA THAT WE HAVE.  If you want to produce some data that backs your premise, by all means please do so. But again, per your own admonishment please limit it to Jeff and Harrison and this year or future. 

I mean, if we want to focus on the current data that we have, then THIS SEASON ... the only COVID season in Indiana history ... Jeff beat West Lafayette, Harrison, Kokomo, McCutcheon, Logansport, Muncie Central, and Lake Central to make it a 7-for-7 sweep over schools with better R/FL ratios AND did it in a COVID year.  Their single loss of the season comes from Merrillville who has a F/RL ratio of 61.11 compared to Jeff's 61.44.  If you've got something else ON TOPIC regarding COVID and SES and Jeff and Harrison, definitely would love to see it.

[temptation]

34 minutes ago, foxbat said:

All of the posts, until the "wiseman" post focused on that. 

BTW, if you want to focus on COVID and SES, then show your numbers?  The only thing we have to focus on is DATA THAT WE HAVE.  If you want to produce some data that backs your premise, by all means please do so. But again, per your own admonishment please limit it to Jeff and Harrison and this year or future. 

I mean, if we want to focus on the current data that we have, then THIS SEASON ... the only COVID season in Indiana history ... Jeff beat West Lafayette, Harrison, Kokomo, McCutcheon, Logansport, Muncie Central, and Lake Central to make it a 7-for-7 sweep over schools with better R/FL ratios AND did it in a COVID year.  Their single loss of the season comes from Merrillville who has a F/RL ratio of 61.11 compared to Jeff's 61.44.  If you've got something else ON TOPIC regarding COVID and SES and Jeff and Harrison, definitely would love to see it.

Just talking trends my man.  It’s common sense.  DT gave no time frame to the “passing of the torch.”  The effects of Covid will last more than one season.

There was a time as recently as 10-15 years ago that Center Grove (similar profile to Harrison) defeating Ben Davis/Warren (similar profile to Jeff) was considered an upset.  Now, the Trojans not only hold their own, but they are .500 or better against both over the last decade.  The only thing keeping BD/WC afloat is their distinct numbers advantage over CG.  Jeff doesn’t enjoy that same luxury over Harrison.

Jeff isn’t going away in the next 2-3 years, Harrison is not going to be a state contender in the next 2-3 years as their current projected growth will undoubtedly land them an eternal spot in 6A but by the end of this decade?  The trajectory of the numbers suggests, they’ll start winning their fair share.

Edited December 6, 2020 by temptation

[vicvinegar]

Harrison isn't overtaking Jeff in the next decade. The only way that COULD happen is if Shanley leaves, which I don't see happening. I'm sure Harrison will beat Jeff here and there, but Jeff will win more conference titles than Harrison will.

 

One could talk about how it's a growing area and F/RL. That sounds a lot like another school that we have a thread about... Franklin Central. Except that thread is questioning whether or not it's a good job. I'm sure the same has been said about Noblesville several times. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by vicvinegar

[Bears62]

2 minutes ago, vicvinegar said:

Harrison isn't overtaking Jeff in the next decade. The only way that COULD happen is if Shanley leaves, which I don't see happening. I'm sure Harrison will beat Jeff here and there, but Jeff will win more conference titles than Harrison will.

 

One could talk about how it's a growing area and F/RL. That sounds a lot like another school that we have a thread about... Franklin Central. Except that thread is questioning whether or not it's a good job. I'm sure the same has been said about Noblesville several times. 

Completely agree. As long as Shanley is there I don’t think Jeff will lose to Harrison unless Harrison has a special group. Jeff has had and will continue to have better athletes than the Raiders. Props to both of these programs for the success they have earned over the past 5 years

[foxbat]

6 minutes ago, vicvinegar said:

Harrison isn't overtaking Jeff in the next decade. The only way that COULD happen is if Shanley leaves, which I don't see happening. I'm sure Harrison will beat Jeff here and there, but Jeff will win more conference titles than Harrison will.

 

One could talk about how it's a growing area and F/RL. That sounds a lot like another school that we have a thread about... Franklin Central. Except that thread is questioning whether or not it's a good job. I'm sure the same has been said about Noblesville several times. 

NCC shows Jeff with 19 football titles dating back to 1984 and Harrison with just 1 in 2016.  And the year that Harrison won it, they actually shared it with Kokomo.  Jeff has flat out won it or shared it for the last four seasons straight.  With that said, Harrison has won the all-sport crown the last six years in a row. 

I think that you are absolutely correct that Shanley is a significant part of Jeff's not being overrun.  While Jeff and Harrison are not yet discussed in state conversations at this point, I think the amount of relative progress at both schools recently is something to commend both of their coaches for.  I'm hoping that both coaches stick around and continue to build those programs.

[temptation]

22 minutes ago, vicvinegar said:

Harrison isn't overtaking Jeff in the next decade. The only way that COULD happen is if Shanley leaves, which I don't see happening. I'm sure Harrison will beat Jeff here and there, but Jeff will win more conference titles than Harrison will.

 

One could talk about how it's a growing area and F/RL. That sounds a lot like another school that we have a thread about... Franklin Central. Except that thread is questioning whether or not it's a good job. I'm sure the same has been said about Noblesville several times. 

Because Jeff is a GUARANTEED conference title annually because the NCC is a joke.

FC/Noblesville are in HCC purgatory.

Don't confuse the two.