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Article from post trib on Indy football


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12 hours ago, temptation said:

What’s with all of the outrage?  Pretty factual piece other than the private/parochial quote.

There was some non-factual information. Only the last 8 State Championships in the largest class have been won by MIC schools. 2012-13 season was won by Lawrence Central. They are in the MIC now but they were not when they won the 5A State Championship. Larence Central and Pike were both in Conference Indiana at the time. 2 years prior to that Fishers beat Lawrence Central (2 non MIC teams).

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The fact that he argues against a one-size fits all enrollment system but then calls for a one-size fits all multiplier he's arguing for and against the same thing.  

I understand why some public school people like the multiplier angle....it feels good to stick it to the private schools, but it's too simple and doesn't accomplish anything close to equity which is the whole point of class system, to put "like schools" together.  The reality is a simple multiplier is a elementary caliber solution.

However, the IFCA success factor, while probably not a "calculus level" solution it's at least an Algebra II level solution.  

Edited by CoachGallogly
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22 minutes ago, CoachGallogly said:

The fact that he argues against a one-size fits all enrollment system but then calls for a one-size fits all multiplier he's arguing for and against the same thing.  

I understand why some public school people like the multiplier angle....it feels good to stick it to the private schools, but it's too simple and doesn't accomplish anything close to equity which is the whole point of class system, to put "like schools" together.  The reality is a simple multiplier is a elementary caliber solution.

However, the IFCA success factor, while probably not a "calculus level" solution it's at least an Algebra II level solution.  

I don't think it has anything to do with "sticking it to them." Covenant Christian has open borders, but South Adams is confined to the kids in their small little town. Is that a level playing field? 

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1 hour ago, BTF said:

The only four schools with 5+ state championship are ranked 1,2,4, & 6 in enrollment. It's not just a coincidence. 

Short of forming a 4 team 7A or state forced splitting of the school districts there's nothing you can do about it.  

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2 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

There was some non-factual information. Only the last 8 State Championships in the largest class have been won by MIC schools. 2012-13 season was won by Lawrence Central. They are in the MIC now but they were not when they won the 5A State Championship. Larence Central and Pike were both in Conference Indiana at the time. 2 years prior to that Fishers beat Lawrence Central (2 non MIC teams).

Good catch.  I guess I have just finally lowered my standards for legitimate journalism.

That being said, he does swing and miss at a few minor facts, but his overriding message is true.

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4 hours ago, BTF said:

Center Grove + Westfield + Eric Moore = state title every year (unless we are allowing other schools around the state combine). Enrollment is 40% of it. Coaching is 40% and socioeconomic factors are the other 20%. No one is saying that enrollment alone determines who the state champion is, but it plays a HUGE factor. I get it, it's fun to think your school somehow magically breeds better football players than anyone else, but the reality is that there are advantages afforded to some football programs that aren't available to others. 

I think I'd swap your 40 percent "coaching" and 20 percent "SES."

Arsenal Tech or Perry Merdian could bring in Nick Saban and they are not competing with Carmel or Center Grove anytime soon.  Maybe if they gave him a few years, I'd change my mind.

As great as Eric Moore is, drop him in at Cloverdale and see how long it takes.

Vice versa, gimme the keys at Carmel and I could at least keep the train on the tracks...(I had an over 90 percent winning percentage on Super Tecmo Bowl in the 90s...)

Edited by temptation
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36 minutes ago, temptation said:

I think I'd swap your 40 percent "coaching" and 20 percent "SES."

Arsenal Tech or Perry Merdian could bring in Nick Saban and they are not competing with Carmel or Center Grove anytime soon.  Maybe if they gave him a few years, I'd change my mind.

As great as Eric Moore is, drop him in at Cloverdale and see how long it takes.

Vice versa, gimme the keys at Carmel and I could at least keep the train on the tracks...(I had an over 90 percent winning percentage on Super Tecmo Bowl in the 90s...)

Good post, especially the last part..............made me laugh. But I'll still take good coaching over SES. 

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I get that the article is written out of Chicago.  But the same could be said of SW Indiana.  Since Evansville North (95) and Bloomington South (97/98), have been the furthest south teams to reach the state title game in 5A.  And there haven't been any schools in 6A since the creation of the class. 

Seems like 6A has a dual criteria for competitiveness -  Top 32 enrollment AND between Highway 26 in the north and Highway 46 in the south.   

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5 minutes ago, jakone said:

There is a difference between opinion and fact.

Well, its written as an opinion piece (just look at the title) and is a bit fuzzy on some of its "facts" but as I stated, the overall purpose of the article is to illustrate the dominance of the central Indiana schools, which it does.

He compares a NWI large school winning the 6A state title, to winning the lottery.  Not that far fetched based on recent data.

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All of that writing and no real solution offered. Indianapolis has always had the largest schools and the best athletes. Nothing new there. 

The salient point is that the best 6A competition in the state exists in the Indianapolis area and, most importantly, it is organized into one conference that pits all of the largest schools against each other. This has to have a meaningful developmental effect on member programs from top to bottom. 

Varsity players get more meaningful reps in more games. Varsity coaches get more meaningful and challenging reps, if you want to think of it that way, every game and offseason. Every game is a referendum on what you're doing all coaches at all programs, but the concentration of power in the MIC has to have a magnifying effect. How much have MIC programs evolved over the past 20 years? 

I don't follow MIC freshman and JV football very closely, but, there is no reason to believe that those games are not, on the whole, more competitive and beneficial to players and their development. Size matters in a developmental sense. If you have a league of large, healthy programs with high levels of participation at all three levels, you should see the best players improving at each level. Teams that consistently face weaker competition at the developmental levels will not see those same increases because they're already just better based on size alone.

1996: The MIC is formed. A conference member first appears in the largest class of the state finals in 1999 and every year since with the exception of 2010. Some years both participants are from the conference. You know how they say there isn't an off-week in the MIC? Maybe that's true, maybe it's not, but it's doubtful you can say that if you're a 6A school playing in any other conference in the state.

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Talking about the broad range of enrollments in these classes being too wide - maybe we need to break the classes down a little further?

Texas has 1A - 6A, Division1 and Division 2.  Break each class down into two division (i.e. big 2A and small 2A).  Essentially you have 12 classifications instead of six, so the enrollments are significantly closer together within each class.  One problem solved, two (coaching & socioeconomic) to go.

I realize this may not be possible due to the smaller size of Indiana vs. Texas.  I don't know less teams per class, maybe justifies keeping the all-in?

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50 minutes ago, Bonecrusher said:

Talking about the broad range of enrollments in these classes being too wide - maybe we need to break the classes down a little further?

Texas has 1A - 6A, Division1 and Division 2.  Break each class down into two division (i.e. big 2A and small 2A).  Essentially you have 12 classifications instead of six, so the enrollments are significantly closer together within each class.  One problem solved, two (coaching & socioeconomic) to go.

I realize this may not be possible due to the smaller size of Indiana vs. Texas.  I don't know less teams per class, maybe justifies keeping the all-in?

The big problem with that is that it isn't a set grouping.  The divisions are only determined at the time of the the playoff qualifications.  Texas takes the top four teams in a district to go on to the playoffs.  The two with the largest enrollment go in the "big division" and the other two go in the "small division" for the class.  You could end up with the four smallest teams in one district qualifying for the playoff.  The two largest of those smallest would go in the "big division" and the other two would go in the "small division."  The only two knowns are that the top two teams by enrollment in a dividsion would go big and the two smallest would go small if they qualify.  Outside of that, the third-largest team in a district could go big or small depending on where they qualify out of the district.

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4 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

this is what I took from the article:   :classic_biggrin:

 

 

Still one of the most enjoyable games in the finals I have seen. The precision was pretty impressive. I rank it number 3 or 4. The first two are kind of obvious to me, considering I was on the field for them as my two favorite games. 

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3 hours ago, Irishman said:

Still one of the most enjoyable games in the finals I have seen. The precision was pretty impressive. I rank it number 3 or 4. The first two are kind of obvious to me, considering I was on the field for them as my two favorite games. 

special group for sure.   

Now trying to get back is equally driving.  Once you get that taste......  

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2 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

Ben Davis lost to Penn in 1996.

I was there; it was awesome and a great game. 

Penn had an 89 game regular season winning streak going until an October 11th date at Ben Davis that year as well. I was there; it was much less awesome and not much of a game either. 

It's a shame that series came to an end, at least for Penn.

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17 hours ago, foxbat said:

The big problem with that is that it isn't a set grouping.  The divisions are only determined at the time of the the playoff qualifications.  Texas takes the top four teams in a district to go on to the playoffs.  The two with the largest enrollment go in the "big division" and the other two go in the "small division" for the class.  You could end up with the four smallest teams in one district qualifying for the playoff.  The two largest of those smallest would go in the "big division" and the other two would go in the "small division."  The only two knowns are that the top two teams by enrollment in a dividsion would go big and the two smallest would go small if they qualify.  Outside of that, the third-largest team in a district could go big or small depending on where they qualify out of the district.

I admit I may not be understanding your reply correctly, so keep that in mind when you read this.

If you are saying that breaking the classifications down into Div. 1/Div. 2 (large/small) doesn't happen until playoff time, that is incorrect.  Breaking them down (ex. 3A-D1 & 3A-D2) is a set grouping they do at the start of every realignment.  There are enrollment ranges for each of the classes broken down by division, and your school stays there until the next realignment.  6A is the only exception; there is no D1/D2 in that classification. Top four teams from 3A-D1 District "X" go to their D1 playoff bracket for two years, top four from 3A-D2 District "Y" go to their D2 bracket.  See the attached screen shot.  It's from the 2020-2022 realignment cycle.

Anyway, this isn't about the Texas system.  I was just thinking since there's such a wide range of enrollment ranges in some of these classes, if you essentially break each one in half (like they do in TX), it may even things out a little more.

Align.JPG

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23 minutes ago, Bonecrusher said:

I admit I may not be understanding your reply correctly, so keep that in mind when you read this.

If you are saying that breaking the classifications down into Div. 1/Div. 2 (large/small) doesn't happen until playoff time, that is incorrect.  Breaking them down (ex. 3A-D1 & 3A-D2) is a set grouping they do at the start of every realignment.  There are enrollment ranges for each of the classes broken down by division, and your school stays there until the next realignment.  6A is the only exception; there is no D1/D2 in that classification. Top four teams from 3A-D1 District "X" go to their D1 playoff bracket for two years, top four from 3A-D2 District "Y" go to their D2 bracket.  See the attached screen shot.  It's from the 2020-2022 realignment cycle.

Anyway, this isn't about the Texas system.  I was just thinking since there's such a wide range of enrollment ranges in some of these classes, if you essentially break each one in half (like they do in TX), it may even things out a little more.

Align.JPG

I was referring to 6A since the article was about the biggest schools.  In 6A Texas, the division isn't set until the teams have qualified for post-season play.  you are correct though that, for the lower divisions, 1A-5A, they are split at the time of classification.

In Indiana, the issue of divisions usually only comes up in two contexts:

  • PP and public ... which really is more about different leagues than divisions
  • 6A

Occasionally there is some discussion about the fact that, in Indiana, there's actually more of an impactful gap between the top and bottom of 1A than there is in 6A, but that rarely gets more than a couple of posts attention at best compared to the other two discussions of division/leagues.  I think @Irishman also alluded to the gap in 1A above a few posts up.

 

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23 hours ago, PDB26 said:

I don't follow MIC freshman and JV football very closely, but, there is no reason to believe that those games are not, on the whole, more competitive and beneficial to players and their development. Size matters in a developmental sense. If you have a league of large, healthy programs with high levels of participation at all three levels, you should see the best players improving at each level. Teams that consistently face weaker competition at the developmental levels will not see those same increases because they're already just better based on size alone.

I've officiated several MIC freshman and JV games over my career. I would say many of them would beat a lot of 3A and 4A varsity teams. We like to have newer officials help at these games because they get more prepared for the varsity games they will eventually work.

This year was one of the best I've seen. Teams like LC and Warren were very sophomore/junior heavy on varsity. They mostly kept their freshmen on the freshman team so the JV were the sophomores and juniors that didn't get to play varsity. If the freshmen at those schools played the JV the freshmen could probably win.

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