Covenent Christian - Time for a Reality Check

[BigBH]

24 minutes ago, temptation said:

Dude, you are on fire today.

that wasn't meant to be funny....its fact

[BDGiant93]

🍿 (Pulls up a seat)

[Patriot 74]

Simple solution.  Add a class to the IHSAA, 7A is nothing but PP schools and let them duke it out!!  See problem solved!  It's that simple.

[temptation]

41 minutes ago, BigBH said:

that wasn't meant to be funny....its fact

Not doubting it one bit.  I just appreciate a fellow member on the forum that does not have their head in the sand and spits in the face of being politically correct.

Edited December 7, 2020 by temptation

[FastpacedO]

31 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

Simple solution.  Add a class to the IHSAA, 7A is nothing but PP schools and let them duke it out!!  See problem solved!  It's that simple.

Almost as simple as moving Heritage Hills to 6A to duke it out with Ben Davis, Warren Central, Center Grove, and Carmel. Pretty simple. Pretty much the same ignorant thought process as expecting Oldenberg Academy, Providence, or Trader's Point Christian playing in a Class with Cathedral, Roncalli, or Chatard for a State Championship.

[Bonecrusher]

43 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

Simple solution.  Add a class to the IHSAA, 7A is nothing but PP schools and let them duke it out!!  See problem solved!  It's that simple.

There are other states that do something similar now.

TAPPS (Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools) is the organization that administers athletic/musical/academic competitions for the P/P's.  They are allowed to compete with public schools, within limitations.  Example, my kid's school has played a Catholic school football team in pre-district for many years.  They are a very good team that competes well with public 2A programs (they are a 2A sized school), and more often than not goes deep in the TAPPS post season.  To the best of my knowledge a TAPPS state championship does not seem to have the same "prestige" as a UIL (UIL = IHSAA) state championship.  Not saying that's right or wrong for it to be that way, just how it is.  And it's too bad, because there are some excellent P/P programs down here, a handful that could put a whoopin' on some of the good  public schools.

The prestige, or lack of, could be an issue if a separate class is made just for P/P's.  A lot of public school folk here sort of look down their noses at TAPPS schools, and that's very unfortunate. That may not be the case up north in my home state, seeing the quality of football played by a lot of the P/P's.  However, if they compete in their own "bubble", it could be an unintended consequence down the road, maybe?

4 minutes ago, Bonecrusher said:

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Bonecrusher

[foxbat]

5 hours ago, Bonecrusher said:

There are other states that do something similar now.

TAPPS (Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools) is the organization that administers athletic/musical/academic competitions for the P/P's.  They are allowed to compete with public schools, within limitations.  Example, my kid's school has played a Catholic school football team in pre-district for many years.  They are a very good team that competes well with public 2A programs (they are a 2A sized school), and more often than not goes deep in the TAPPS post season.  To the best of my knowledge a TAPPS state championship does not seem to have the same "prestige" as a UIL (UIL = IHSAA) state championship.  Not saying that's right or wrong for it to be that way, just how it is.  And it's too bad, because there are some excellent P/P programs down here, a handful that could put a whoopin' on some of the good  public schools.

The prestige, or lack of, could be an issue if a separate class is made just for P/P's.  A lot of public school folk here sort of look down their noses at TAPPS schools, and that's very unfortunate. That may not be the case up north in my home state, seeing the quality of football played by a lot of the P/P's.  However, if they compete in their own "bubble", it could be an unintended consequence down the road, maybe?

 

Private schools can compete in UIL in Texas, but they have to be accredited by the TPSAC and also be ineligible for other organizations like TAPPS or SPC ... usually due to their size.  If they do play in UIL, they play up a level from classification.  As for prestige, part of it is a numbers thing as there are close to 1,300 schools in UIL and only around 250 in TAPPS.  Sheer numbers dictate coverage in media and other places.  Also, familiarity is less with segregated leagues.  Like you said, there are some very good schools in TAPPS, but the PPs that get a lot more attention are like Jesuit in Dallas and Strake out of Houston which play UIL ball in the 6A class.  The mix in teams in Indiana creates familiarity which makes it very easy to compare public and private performance.  If you split them, eventually over time you'd end up with a lot of "mythical state championship matches" ... no way to see them but plenty of arguments with little basis.

[Boilernation]

8 hours ago, DT said:

His school is 5 minutes from Bishop Noll.  

Hence the comments

LOL. Their football stadium is easily visible from the Toll Road just before entering Chicago. It looks like it seats 50 people and was the practice field used in the movie Wildcats. 

[Guest DT]

1 hour ago, Boilernation said:

LOL. Their football stadium is easily visible from the Toll Road just before entering Chicago. It looks like it seats 50 people and was the practice field used in the movie Wildcats. 

Stadium?

[Patriot 74]

16 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

Almost as simple as moving Heritage Hills to 6A to duke it out with Ben Davis, Warren Central, Center Grove, and Carmel. Pretty simple. Pretty much the same ignorant thought process as expecting Oldenberg Academy, Providence, or Trader's Point Christian playing in a Class with Cathedral, Roncalli, or Chatard for a State Championship.

My my my did someone have a bad day or what?? 

So it's pretty ignorant for a public school, let's say Heritage Hills, to have a complaint having to play a PP school like Chatard in LOS last year.  I think the football rosters were something like HH 50 kids, Chatard 110 kids.  That's the same kind of disadvantage you allude to in your  ignorant response above mentioning Oldenburg Academy, Providence and anyone else playing Cathederal or whoever.  If I may......you are saying it's okay for public schools to compete with this obvious disadvantage of being outsized and outnumbered, but by golly no way a PP school, especially a smaller one at that, should have to play against a bigger and better roster.  C'mon man!!!

[FastpacedO]

22 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

My my my did someone have a bad day or what?? 

So it's pretty ignorant for a public school, let's say Heritage Hills, to have a complaint having to play a PP school like Chatard in LOS last year.  I think the football rosters were something like HH 50 kids, Chatard 110 kids.  That's the same kind of disadvantage you allude to in your  ignorant response above mentioning Oldenburg Academy, Providence and anyone else playing Cathederal or whoever.  If I may......you are saying it's okay for public schools to compete with this obvious disadvantage of being outsized and outnumbered, but by golly no way a PP school, especially a smaller one at that, should have to play against a bigger and better roster.  C'mon man!!!

Nope had a great day.

Yes it is ignorant to expect Oldenberg Academy enrollment 219, Trader's Point Christian Academy enrollment 126, and Providence enrollment 385 to compete against Roncalli enrollment 1,188, Cathedral enrollment 1,099, and Bishop Chatard 714. Just as ignorant as saying Heritage Hills enrollment 601 should have to play in the same class as New Palestine enrollment 1,175, Center Grove enrollment 2,521, or Decatur Central enrollment 1,845. Chatard maybe rostered 80-81 players at most, on the field its 11 vs 11 though 50% of the roster didn't even cross the sideline except to head to and from the locker room. I doubt Evansville Memorial had more rostered players than Heritage Hills. The success factor will bump succesful teams up Public or P/P it needs tweaks but it works. I didn't see a problem with New Palestine comfortably beating Whiteland, Franklin, Cathedral, Bloomington South, or Valparaiso with roughly half the roster of all those teams last year. So c'mon man.

[foxbat]

9 hours ago, DT said:

Stadium?

Some say potato ... some say abandoned lot.

[FastpacedO]

11 hours ago, Boilernation said:

LOL. Their football stadium is easily visible from the Toll Road just before entering Chicago. It looks like it seats 50 people and was the practice field used in the movie Wildcats. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by FastpacedO

[Patriot 74]

41 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Nope had a great day.

Yes it is ignorant to expect Oldenberg Academy enrollment 219, Trader's Point Christian Academy enrollment 126, and Providence enrollment 385 to compete against Roncalli enrollment 1,188, Cathedral enrollment 1,099, and Bishop Chatard 714. Just as ignorant as saying Heritage Hills enrollment 601 should have to play in the same class as New Palestine enrollment 1,175, Center Grove enrollment 2,521, or Decatur Central enrollment 1,845. Chatard maybe rostered 80-81 players at most, on the field its 11 vs 11 though 50% of the roster didn't even cross the sideline except to head to and from the locker room. I doubt Evansville Memorial had more rostered players than Heritage Hills. The success factor will bump succesful teams up Public or P/P it needs tweaks but it works. I didn't see a problem with New Palestine comfortably beating Whiteland, Franklin, Cathedral, Bloomington South, or Valparaiso with roughly half the roster of all those teams last year. So c'mon man.

Sorry if I unintentionally made this a private vs public school thing and I apologize.  But to be clear I was in no way insinuating that HH complained about playing Chatard last year.  Fact is, at one time there was a pretty good tournament rivalry that HH and Chatard had, although it was pretty one sided, but no matter who won the game it was always a sloberknocker!!  In my earlier post my intention was to draw a comparison to this:  why is it okay and acceptable for PP school (Chatard) to field a team of 107 players (Max Preps stat) against a HH team of 50 (again Max Preps stat).  It would seem that in every class 1A-5A the PP schools usually have a far larger team by the numbers.  The advantage here is quite obvious, there are minimal two way players, and possibly even a completely separate special teams roster for the PP school, while in this particular comparison HH had 9-10 kids never ever leave the field.  War of attrition is usually won by the team with greater numbers.      

I do not seem to think it outrageous or ignorant to say that the PP schools should have their own tournament.  Maybe the Oldenbergs and Trader's Points wouldn't stand a chance against the big boys.  Do you think a Tecumseh, or Pike Central would ever stand a chance against Covenant Christian or Chatard???  I think we all know the answer is a resounding NO!!  That's life, and sometimes it's hard and it sucks, but it's reality.  The reality should be this:  that five classes of football shouldn't be dominated year in and year out by PP schools, but instead have one PP school champion and 6 other public school class champions!  

[foxbat]

3 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

 

I do not seem to think it outrageous or ignorant to say that the PP schools should have their own tournament.  Maybe the Oldenbergs and Trader's Points wouldn't stand a chance against the big boys.   

TPCS has made it to a sectional championship for the past three seasons albeit they were derailed by COVID this year.  The previous season they lost to LCC and the season before they dropped the championship to South Putnam.

[DE]

20 hours ago, MICFan34 said:

Huh? P/P's have more of a community feel than most public schools while also bringing huge crowds to sporting events. 

Oddly, this is true in a lot of cases.  I mean this as a compliment.

12 hours ago, Boilernation said:

LOL. Their football stadium is easily visible from the Toll Road just before entering Chicago. It looks like it seats 50 people and was the practice field used in the movie Wildcats. 

It was?  Now I am going to have to go re-watch this.

[Bonecrusher]

12 hours ago, foxbat said:

Private schools can compete in UIL in Texas, but they have to be accredited by the TPSAC and also be ineligible for other organizations like TAPPS or SPC ... usually due to their size.  If they do play in UIL, they play up a level from classification.  As for prestige, part of it is a numbers thing as there are close to 1,300 schools in UIL and only around 250 in TAPPS.  Sheer numbers dictate coverage in media and other places.  Also, familiarity is less with segregated leagues.  Like you said, there are some very good schools in TAPPS, but the PPs that get a lot more attention are like Jesuit in Dallas and Strake out of Houston which play UIL ball in the 6A class.  The mix in teams in Indiana creates familiarity which makes it very easy to compare public and private performance.  If you split them, eventually over time you'd end up with a lot of "mythical state championship matches" ... no way to see them but plenty of arguments with little basis.

I stand corrected.  There are indeed a few P/P schools competing with the publics.  Saw a few in 1A and 3A-6A.  Nothing in 2A, strangely enough.

[Titan32]

21 hours ago, MICFan34 said:

Huh? P/P's have more of a community feel than most public schools while also bringing huge crowds to sporting events. 

Really?

[MICFan34]

4 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

Really?

In my opinion, absolutely, at least in Indianapolis. I can't speak on Ft. Wayne, The Region, or Evansville, but most of the Catholic schools in Indianapolis are made up of legacy families, stretching back 2-3 generations. 

[Titan32]

9 minutes ago, MICFan34 said:

In my opinion, absolutely, at least in Indianapolis. I can't speak on Ft. Wayne, The Region, or Evansville, but most of the Catholic schools in Indianapolis are made up of legacy families, stretching back 2-3 generations. 

I agree...but my observation down here is that doesn't always equate to fan support...until at least a sectional championship game LOL.  You will also find the rural publics very strong in terms of fan support.

[foxbat]

28 minutes ago, Bonecrusher said:

I stand corrected.  There are indeed a few P/P schools competing with the publics.  Saw a few in 1A and 3A-6A.  Nothing in 2A, strangely enough.

I would suspect that the reason is mainly the reason why you see folks pushing back on a statement that no PPs should be allowed to play 1A in Indiana.  In Texas, if a PP plays in UIL, the biggest obstacle is that they usually can't be eligible for play in TAPPS or SPC.  The main reason that that often occurs is due to size ... being too big for TAPPS which is why you see Dallas Jesuit and Strake Jesuit in UIL.  The other component to being in UIL is, if you are PP, there's an automatic bump in class.  As such, the only PP 2As that you would see in UIL would actually be 1A PPs that didn't qualify for TAPPS or SPC ... 2A PPs would have to play in 3A.  I don't recall TAPPS cutoffs, but if they are similar to UIL, you're talking about a school that has enrollment no larger than 104 students having to automatically compete in 2A if they are PP and playing UIL.  At 104 and 50% boys, you'd need 50% participation just to get 26 kids on a team and then have to play up to 2A.  If you are a 1A PP school, you would have 40+ other PP schools to compete against with similar size in TAPPS or have to play up in 2A in UIL.  With those options, it doesn't surprise me at all that you don't see any 2A PPs in UIL.

 

 

[FastpacedO]

4 hours ago, Patriot 74 said:

Sorry if I unintentionally made this a private vs public school thing and I apologize.  But to be clear I was in no way insinuating that HH complained about playing Chatard last year.  Fact is, at one time there was a pretty good tournament rivalry that HH and Chatard had, although it was pretty one sided, but no matter who won the game it was always a sloberknocker!!  In my earlier post my intention was to draw a comparison to this:  why is it okay and acceptable for PP school (Chatard) to field a team of 107 players (Max Preps stat) against a HH team of 50 (again Max Preps stat).  It would seem that in every class 1A-5A the PP schools usually have a far larger team by the numbers.  The advantage here is quite obvious, there are minimal two way players, and possibly even a completely separate special teams roster for the PP school, while in this particular comparison HH had 9-10 kids never ever leave the field.  War of attrition is usually won by the team with greater numbers.      

I do not seem to think it outrageous or ignorant to say that the PP schools should have their own tournament.  Maybe the Oldenbergs and Trader's Points wouldn't stand a chance against the big boys.  Do you think a Tecumseh, or Pike Central would ever stand a chance against Covenant Christian or Chatard???  I think we all know the answer is a resounding NO!!  That's life, and sometimes it's hard and it sucks, but it's reality.  The reality should be this:  that five classes of football shouldn't be dominated year in and year out by PP schools, but instead have one PP school champion and 6 other public school class champions!  

You can go to the official IHSAA State Championship program (link provided) to count the Chatard roster 81 players listed. I am sure they would love to have 107 players on their Varsity roster though.

https://www.ihsaa.org/portals/0/Flip Book/2020-21/fb/index.html

Also 2020 6 classes 5 P/P State Champions, 2019 6 classes 3 P/P Champions, 2018 6 classes 1 P/P Champion last 3 years data. 

[Patriot 74]

2 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

You can go to the official IHSAA State Championship program (link provided) to count the Chatard roster 81 players listed. I am sure they would love to have 107 players on their Varsity roster though.

https://www.ihsaa.org/portals/0/Flip Book/2020-21/fb/index.html

Also 2020 6 classes 5 P/P State Champions, 2019 6 classes 3 P/P Champions, 2018 6 classes 1 P/P Champion last 3 years data. 

Anomaly, outlier, something strange in the water........whatever 2018 was.

ALSO 2010  5 classes 3 P/P champions  2011 5 classes 4 P/P  2012 5 classes 4 P/P 2013 5 classes 4 P/P     From 2010-2013 only 5 classes!!!                               2014 6 classes 3 P/P 2015 6 classes 2 P/P 2016 6 classes 3 P/P 2017 6 classes 3 P/P 

Champions 8 previous years!  If my math skills are on point in these 8 years 26 of the possible 40 chance were won by P/P schools!  That's 65%!  I stand by my comments that the reality shouldn't be P/P schools dominating their respective classes year in and year out!  

 

  

 (Chatard) to field a team of 107 players (Max Preps stat)            Obviously you missed this piece of info, that I actually used Max Preps as a source!!!  

[FastpacedO]

50 minutes ago, Patriot 74 said:

Anomaly, outlier, something strange in the water........whatever 2018 was.

ALSO 2010  5 classes 3 P/P champions  2011 5 classes 4 P/P  2012 5 classes 4 P/P 2013 5 classes 4 P/P     From 2010-2013 only 5 classes!!!                               2014 6 classes 3 P/P 2015 6 classes 2 P/P 2016 6 classes 3 P/P 2017 6 classes 3 P/P 

Champions 8 previous years!  If my math skills are on point in these 8 years 26 of the possible 40 chance were won by P/P schools!  That's 65%!  I stand by my comments that the reality shouldn't be P/P schools dominating their respective classes year in and year out!  

 

  

 (Chatard) to field a team of 107 players (Max Preps stat)            Obviously you missed this piece of info, that I actually used Max Preps as a source!!!  

I know you used Maxpreps. That is why I stated it is inaccurate and the actual roster is available in the IHSAA Finals program and also on Chatard's website.  2013 was also the year the success factor was introduced. Heritage Hills will not have to worry about Chatard next year because Chatard will be moving up to 4A. It moves highly successful teams up a class all by a point system. needs tweaked to 4 years but it is a good system.

By the way you brought up Pike Central and Tecumseh, they can't compete with their 1A and 3A Public counterparts so no they won't be able to compete with CC or Chatard. Just like Bishop Noll can't compete with most of 2A. My point is what will you do if they put P/P in a its own class, then a public school with more rostered players continues to win want them moved into their own class? Just keep doing that until there are no teams with more rostered players and that State Championship is achieved.

Just an FYI 2018 wasn't the only year there was 1 P/P State Champion. Heck 05/06 saw 0 P/P State Champions.

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, Patriot 74 said:

Anomaly, outlier, something strange in the water........whatever 2018 was.

ALSO 2010  5 classes 3 P/P champions  2011 5 classes 4 P/P  2012 5 classes 4 P/P 2013 5 classes 4 P/P     From 2010-2013 only 5 classes!!!                               2014 6 classes 3 P/P 2015 6 classes 2 P/P 2016 6 classes 3 P/P 2017 6 classes 3 P/P 

Champions 8 previous years!  If my math skills are on point in these 8 years 26 of the possible 40 chance were won by P/P schools!  That's 65%!  I stand by my comments that the reality shouldn't be P/P schools dominating their respective classes year in and year out!  

 

  

 (Chatard) to field a team of 107 players (Max Preps stat)            Obviously you missed this piece of info, that I actually used Max Preps as a source!!!  

What about 2017?  Only two PP out of the whole group and they played each other in 3A.

Also, you should rerun numbers from 2013 at the earliest because that's the first year of SF.  2010, 2011, and 2012 cloud the picture.  Once you add in SF, the numbers drop down.  I have a spreadsheet on that that I posted in another thread, but it's on a different computer.  Will try to track it downn when I get home.

Edited December 8, 2020 by foxbat