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How we fix Northern 6A football


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5 minutes ago, Gipper said:

I think they are both great conferences.  

Great to me means two things as it relates to this conversation.

1.  You have multiple legitimate state title contenders in the two highest classes annually.

2.  You have depth and can not overlook ANY opponent as even the bottom feeders of the conference can sneak up on you on the right night.

The HCC checks both boxes, the SAC doesn’t.

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Don't want to take away from the title on this thread, but the SAC having schools in multiple classes played a large role in these numbers.   What is the SAC's record in the state finals in 5A/6A

Have you ever watched a game film of the HCC... The line play is extremely good, and except for this past year, the defenses in the conference are very good.  How can you say the HCC is soft...  you c

That guy needs to read more books and attend more clinics.

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1 minute ago, temptation said:

Great to me means two things as it relates to this conversation.

1.  You have multiple legitimate state title contenders in the two highest classes annually.

2.  You have depth and can not overlook ANY opponent as even the bottom feeders of the conference can sneak up on you on the right night.

The HCC checks both boxes, the SAC doesn’t.

So you are disqualifying a program if they have lower enrollments? C'mon, you are smarter than you make yourself out to believe sometimes. 

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No one in the MIC will take the HCC seriously (nor should they) until they beat top tier teams from the MIC in meaningful postseason games.

No one in the MIC/HCC will take the 5A/6A schools in the SAC seriously until they beat them in October/November their fair share.

2 minutes ago, BTF said:

So you are disqualifying a program if they have lower enrollments? C'mon, you are smarter than you make yourself out to believe sometimes. 

I’m disqualifying them in a head to head with teams in the other conferences, yes.

As I pointed out the other day, the SAC’s state finals track record is inflated based on the fact that they play in four different classes annually.

HCC/MIC schools self destruct one another in the postseason.

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6 minutes ago, temptation said:

Or has a great relationship with the track coach and both are LEGITIMATELY involved for the right reasons.  

I’ve seen all three sides:

1.  The two programs work (in either situation described above) flawlessly together.

2.  The two butt heads and kids suffer.

3.  The two talk out of both sides of their mouths yet their actions speak differently.

I have seen that track guy that runs sprinter type kids to the point they can't put on any weight.  Huge concern for me.

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1 minute ago, Titan32 said:

I have seen that track guy that runs sprinter type kids to the point they can't put on any weight.  Huge concern for me.

That guy needs to read more books and attend more clinics.

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9 minutes ago, temptation said:

I’m disqualifying then in a head to head with teams in the other conferences, yes.

Thanks for clarifying. To be honest, I have more respect for what South Adams does with 500 kids than I do what Carmel does with 5200. So yeah, pound for pound is important to me when measuring a program. 

9 minutes ago, temptation said:

No one in the MIC/HCC will take the 5A/6A schools in the SAC seriously until they beat them in October/November their fair share.

The SAC has been a dominant force for four decades. I remember a time back in the 90's when radio guys were ticked that they had to waste their time against teams from the HCC. 

Currently? Yeah, the Zionsville upset over Dwenger wasn't a good look for the SAC. Nor was the Homestead/Noblesville game. No one ever thought the Homestead/Westfield game would be close. Like I said, the 2020 Homstead team wouldn't qualify as a Top 30 SAC team of all time. Not even Top 40. 

Edited by BTF
Grammer - GID is a rough crew when it comes to that
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9 minutes ago, BTF said:

Thanks for clarifying. To be honest, I have more respect for what South Adams does with 500 kids than I do what Carmel does with 5200. So yeah, pound for pound is important to me when measuring a program. 

The SAC has been a dominant force for four decades. I remember a time back in the 90's when radio guys were ticked that they had to waste their time against teams from the HCC. 

Currently? Yeah, the Zionsville upset over Dwenger wasn't a good look for the SAC. Nor was the Homestead/Noblesville game. No one ever thought the Homestead/Westfield game would be close. Like I said, the 2020 Homstead team wouldn't qualify as a Top 30 SAC team of all time. Not even Top 40. 

Agree 100 percent with your SA/Carmel opinion.

The 90s was now THREE decades ago my man.  Population and demographic changes have completely changed the landscape of high school sports.

The HCC is the conference of the future.  The SAC will remain relevant and have its chances but nowhere near the force it used to be (speaking specifically to the 5A/6A level).

Homestead and Carroll elevate its profile for sure.  They’ll be interesting to follow.

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3 minutes ago, temptation said:

Agree 100 percent with your SA/Carmel opinion.

The 90s was now THREE decades ago my man.  Population and demographic changes have completely changed the landscape of high school sports.

The HCC is the conference of the future.  The SAC will remain relevant and have its chances but nowhere near the force it used to be.

Homestead and Carroll elevate its profile for sure.  They’ll be interesting to follow.

Kudos to the HCC for how they've progressed over the last two decades. 

Nowhere the force they used to be? Four different teams have won state in the last decade. I think you meant to say "nowhere the force in the highest class they used to be." With Snider's enrollment continuing to go down, they'll have to make their mark in 5a. Now it's up to Carroll and Homestead........both over 2400. 

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2 minutes ago, BTF said:

Kudos to the HCC for how they've progressed over the last two decades. 

Nowhere the force they used to be? Four different teams have won state in the last decade. I think you meant to say "nowhere the force in the highest class they used to be." With Snider's enrollment continuing to go down, they'll have to make their mark in 5a. Now it's up to Carroll and Homestead........both over 2400. 

Lol, you replied before my edit.  I’m speaking specifically at the big school level.

 

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Just now, temptation said:

Lol, you replied before my edit.  I’m speaking specifically at the big school level.

 

Thought maybe that was the case. 

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17 hours ago, BTF said:

 

 I remember a time back in the 90's when radio guys were ticked that they had to waste their time against teams from the HCC. 

 

Well, that was before Carmel joined. Or maybe before the HCC existed and the future HCC schools were in the likes of the Olympic and Mid-State Conferences. Or maybe I'm just bored.

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19 hours ago, temptation said:

I’ll speculate and probably step out of my lane (pun intended).

Having one guy in charge of both programs makes it a 365 day per year ordeal.  You can see your athletes nearly on a daily basis without violating any IHSAA protocols and work with them to improve their athletic profile.

I’ve met many egocentric coaches (more so in football than track) who brainwash the “specialization” nonsense along with threatening fall playing time.  I feel it’s gotten worse with the evolution of spring 7 on 7.  Man kids feel like they are missing out and falling behind if they play a spring sport...and it’s hard to do both effectively.

From purely a physiological standpoint, there is never anything wrong with improving your speed, strength, agility, reaction time, etc from participation in track and field in the spring.  It’s only going to help you in the fall.

Basketball coaches can be egocentric as well, threatening PT for not attending open gym.

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20 hours ago, temptation said:

Great to me means two things as it relates to this conversation.

1.  You have multiple legitimate state title contenders in the two highest classes annually.

2.  You have depth and can not overlook ANY opponent as even the bottom feeders of the conference can sneak up on you on the right night.

The HCC checks both boxes, the SAC doesn’t.

The HCC reminds me of Texas high school football and the Big 12.  Lots of very high scoring offenses and flashy numbers and highly recruited qbs and receivers.  And then come tournament time the big bad MIC (Alabama , Clemson and the Southeastern Conf expose them for what they are.   

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22 hours ago, BTF said:

Thanks for clarifying. To be honest, I have more respect for what South Adams does with 500 kids than I do what Carmel does with 5200. So yeah, pound for pound is important to me when measuring a program. 

The SAC has been a dominant force for four decades. I remember a time back in the 90's when radio guys were ticked that they had to waste their time against teams from the HCC. 

Currently? Yeah, the Zionsville upset over Dwenger wasn't a good look for the SAC. Nor was the Homestead/Noblesville game. No one ever thought the Homestead/Westfield game would be close. Like I said, the 2020 Homstead team wouldn't qualify as a Top 30 SAC team of all time. Not even Top 40. 

I would agree and add Adams Central to that too.  AC and SA both have around 350 students and seem to have close to 45-50 players every year.  They figure out ways to beat the bigger schools on their schedules.  

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1 hour ago, DT said:

The HCC reminds me of Texas high school football and the Big 12.  Lots of very high scoring offenses and flashy numbers and highly recruited qbs and receivers.  And then come tournament time the big bad MIC (Alabama , Clemson and the Southeastern Conf expose them for what they are.   

Analogy doesn’t fit for me.

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3 minutes ago, DT said:

HCC is the Big 12

MIC is the SEC

 

Oh, I know what you were “trying” to say and I guess I can see some parallels but overall, the analogy doesn’t work for me.

You know my stance on this by now.

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Just now, temptation said:

Oh, I know what you were “trying” to say and I guess I can see some parallels but overall, the analogy doesn’t work for me.

You know my stance on this by now.

Not really.

 

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3 minutes ago, DT said:

Not really.

 

The MIC is king because four programs are carrying the water.  The bottom half of the two conferences are quite comparable.

Carmel boasts an obvious enrollment and SES advantage and CG has an SES that indicates they’ll be a staple for a long time as long as they don’t screw up the next hire when Moore moves on.

BD and WC don’t have the SES advantage of Carmel/CG but remain elite due to their enrollment advantages over the rest of the state.  
 

The HCC is still the conference of the future though I’m not wanting to return to the rabbit hole of “when” they’ll take over as top dog.  They’ll have to win 2-3 titles at the 6a level for folks to get on board.

With urban sprawl and changing demographics in the Indy suburbs, this is common sense to those who do not bury their heads in the sand.

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22 minutes ago, temptation said:

The MIC is king because four programs are carrying the water.  The bottom half of the two conferences are quite comparable.

Carmel boasts an obvious enrollment and SES advantage and CG has an SES that indicates they’ll be a staple for a long time as long as they don’t screw up the next hire when Moore moves on.

BD and WC don’t have the SES advantage of Carmel/CG but remain elite due to their enrollment advantages over the rest of the state.  
 

The HCC is still the conference of the future though I’m not wanting to return to the rabbit hole of “when” they’ll take over as top dog.  They’ll have to win 2-3 titles at the 6a level for folks to get on board.

With urban sprawl and changing demographics in the Indy suburbs, this is common sense to those who do not bury their heads in the sand.

I was more referencing style of play with my analogy.  I assumed you knew that.

I prefer the MIC - SEC physical style of play over the HCC-Big 12 wide open Texas style.

Just a personal preference.  

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24 minutes ago, temptation said:

The MIC is king because four programs are carrying the water.  The bottom half of the two conferences are quite comparable.

Carmel boasts an obvious enrollment and SES advantage and CG has an SES that indicates they’ll be a staple for a long time as long as they don’t screw up the next hire when Moore moves on.

BD and WC don’t have the SES advantage of Carmel/CG but remain elite due to their enrollment advantages over the rest of the state.  
 

The HCC is still the conference of the future though I’m not wanting to return to the rabbit hole of “when” they’ll take over as top dog.  They’ll have to win 2-3 titles at the 6a level for folks to get on board.

With urban sprawl and changing demographics in the Indy suburbs, this is common sense to those who do not bury their heads in the sand.

North Central and lawrence North have vastly improved the MICs overall depth from top to bottom.  And Pikle is also on the upswing.  The only program really on the skids is LC.  LN enrollment is growing and LC is dropping .  No doubt there are some good athletes migrating North to LN.  

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1 hour ago, NE8Fan said:

I would agree and add Adams Central to that too.  AC and SA both have around 350 students and seem to have close to 45-50 players every year.  They figure out ways to beat the bigger schools on their schedules.  

Two quality programs for sure. Pound for pound.....up there with the best. There's some pretty good football being played south of Fort Wayne. 

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3 minutes ago, BTF said:

Two quality programs for sure. Pound for pound.....up there with the best. There's some pretty good football being played south of Fort Wayne. 

Strong Ohio influence

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4 minutes ago, DT said:

North Central and lawrence North have vastly improved the MICs overall depth from top to bottom.  And Pikle is also on the upswing.  The only program really on the skids is LC.  LN enrollment is growing and LC is dropping .  No doubt there are some good athletes migrating North to LN.  

Yes, those schools do seem to have an upward trajectory (though NC’s 2020 season surprised me.  I think they get a Covid pass.

LN’s offense was much more of a “Big 12” type of unit this year so I think you are making a blanket statement that just doesn’t fit.

NC and Pike were fairly balanced on offense.  
 

When I think of the Big 12, I think air raid.

4 minutes ago, BTF said:

Two quality programs for sure. Pound for pound.....up there with the best. There's some pretty good football being played south of Fort Wayne. 

“Pretty good.”  You’re coming around...

LOL, I had to.

I respect your game man.

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1 minute ago, temptation said:

Yes, those schools do seem to have an upward trajectory (though NC’s 2020 season surprised me.  I think they get a Covid pass.

LN’s offense was much more of a “Big 12” type of unit this year so I think you are making a blanket statement that just doesn’t fit.

NC and Pike were fairly balanced on offense.  
 

When I think of the Big 12, I think air raid.

“Pretty good.”  You’re coming around...

LOL, I had to.

I respect your game man.

Pat Mallory is a defensive coach.  Some incredible offensive talent fell into his lap and his staff did a great job coaching them up and getting maximum productivity.  LN is 5-2 against the HCC over the past 5 years.  

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