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How asymmetrical should classes be?


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7 hours ago, CoachGallogly said:

DT classification systems shouldn't be created as a response to a couple schools it should be developed in a way that benefits most (if not all) schools in a similar fashion.  

Your breakdown takes a class where the smallest school is about 40% of the biggest, by creating two classes where one group gets a gap thats about 49% while the other class has a gap it's about 75%.   That's hardly an equitable split for the teams in your top breakdown.  

An equitable break down puts Carmel, BD, and Warren in a class, and the other 29 in their own class.   Obviously that's incredibly silly to do such a thing.  The IHSAA would be better off keeping the same 32 setup but lumping the three in their own sectional along with North Central.  But obviously there are financial implications of such a move.  

No matter what happens, people will complain.  The IHSAA does the best job they can and weigh all the factors.

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On 2/15/2021 at 8:34 PM, Gipper said:

No matter what happens, people will complain.  The IHSAA does the best job they can and weigh all the factors.

Interesting that we are talking about symmetry of classes. I’m thinking they don’t care much. 

IHSAA just released the boys sectional draw. Some have 5 teams, most have 6 or 7, and a few even have 8. Tell me how that is symmetry for that tournament?

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13 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Interesting that we are talking about symmetry of classes. I’m thinking they don’t care much. 

IHSAA just released the boys sectional draw. Some have 5 teams, most have 6 or 7, and a few even have 8. Tell me how that is symmetry for that tournament?

it is what it is, I just think there are always grumblings when parings come out, etc.

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On 2/21/2021 at 8:49 PM, oldtimeqb said:

Interesting that we are talking about symmetry of classes. I’m thinking they don’t care much. 

IHSAA just released the boys sectional draw. Some have 5 teams, most have 6 or 7, and a few even have 8. Tell me how that is symmetry for that tournament?

The Football tourney already lacks symmetry I don't get your point

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On 2/15/2021 at 10:32 AM, DT said:

Class 6A Division 1

1112 Carmel High School 1359 1338 1267 1322 5286 2221 Ben Davis High School 1263 1075 1100 1061 4499 3433 Warren Central High School 961 962 960 938 3821 4344 North Central (Indpls.) High School 973 939 872 943 3727 5 7 9 14 Fishers High School 950 887 862 810 3509 6555 Penn High School 840 856 782 860 3338 7866 Lake Central High School 827 850 795 844 3316 8677 Pike High School 909 825 792 769 3295 9988 Hamilton Southeastern HS 827 803 840 803 3273 10 10 10 12 Avon High School 838 770 724 763 3095 11 11 11 10 Noblesville High School 805 744 750 702 3001 12 12 12 11 Crown Point High School 735 704 697 719 2855 13 14 16 18 Brownsburg High School 726 676 693 715 2810 14 13 13 13 Franklin Central High School 759 719 700 626 2804 15 33 44 16 Indpls. Arsenal Technical High School 614 716 696 582 2608 Elkhart High School   

Class 6A Division 2

16 17 19 20 Lawrence North High School 702 607 632 655 2596 17 16 15 17 Center Grove High School 648 640 630 603 2521 18 18 20 23 Perry Meridian High School 626 619 605 595 2445 19 15 14 9 Portage High School 620 586 621 609 2436 20 19 18 21 Homestead Senior High School 678 580 586 580 2424 21 21 24 28 Carroll (F.W.) High School 597 652 598 565 2412 22 25 34 40 Westfield High School 668 573 563 530 2334 23 20 17 15 Lawrence Central High School 539 565 616 570 2290 24 23 26 26 Southport High School 588 589 559 518 2254 25 22 21 19 Merrillville High Sch 564 527 557 539 2187 26 24 25 25 Warsaw Community HS 548 511 518 526 2103 27 30 33 32 Lafayette Jefferson High School 587 492 546 438 2063 28 31 28 29 Columbus North High School 568 535 470 490 2063 29 28 29 30 Chesterton Senior High School 561 512 509 481 2063 30 36 43 44 Zionsville Community High Sch 553 504 492 506 2055 31 27 27 24 Valparaiso High School 511 477 529 537 2054

 

 

 

 

On 2/15/2021 at 12:15 PM, DT said:

No   But D2 schools can move up to D1 via the SF.

I really like the opportunities here for the 6AD2 schools.  With the exception of CG, none are in the post season conversation in terms of being a legit title contender.  Lots of potential for new schools to get a shot at playing at LOS on TG wknd

A Columbus North vs Warsaw matchup for instance would be very intriguing.

Or Lafayette Jeff vs Lawrence North

Lots of new faces and new schools in the finals

 

The 6A championship game this year was played between 2 teams that would be from your proposed 6A Division 2.  Center Grove has been a regular in the state finals and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Westfield make more appearances in the 6A finals.  The 5A championship this year was played between a 4A parochial school and a public school with a 6A enrollment.  I just don’t think further division of classes is needed.

Unless we are talking about adding 8-man football.

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1 hour ago, CoachGallogly said:

How do you suggest asymmetry is achieved among 64 teams?

Between classes, not within them. The football tournament, even though not perfect symmetrical, has 6 Sectionals that are not 4 or 8 teams. The 4A basketball tournament has 5 Sectionals that aren't 6 each; however, that's the remainder of teams, and all are spaced evenly as possible in each Semi-State. There are several Sectionals in Classes 1A-3A that have Sectionals that deviate from the remainder. 

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1 hour ago, DanteEstonia said:

Between classes, not within them. The football tournament, even though not perfect symmetrical, has 6 Sectionals that are not 4 or 8 teams. The 4A basketball tournament has 5 Sectionals that aren't 6 each; however, that's the remainder of teams, and all are spaced evenly as possible in each Semi-State. There are several Sectionals in Classes 1A-3A that have Sectionals that deviate from the remainder. 

That happens in the football playoff set up as well.  5A currently holds that spot of being treated like red-headed step child.  Some sectionals everyone gets a bye, some section's 2 of 5 have to play an extra game than everyone....

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Just now, CoachGallogly said:

That happens in the football playoff set up as well.  5A currently holds that spot of being treated like red-headed step child.  Some sectionals everyone gets a bye, some section's 2 of 5 have to play an extra game than everyone....

But it isn't as asymmetrical as basketball, is it?

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13 hours ago, HoopsCoach said:

 

The 6A championship game this year was played between 2 teams that would be from your proposed 6A Division 2.  Center Grove has been a regular in the state finals and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Westfield make more appearances in the 6A finals.  The 5A championship this year was played between a 4A parochial school and a public school with a 6A enrollment.  I just don’t think further division of classes is needed.

Unless we are talking about adding 8-man football.

My proposal is based off the Oklahoma model, which actually works better for Indiana than it does for the Okies.

http://www.ossaa.net/docs/2019-20/Football/Tentative 2020-2021_AND_2021-2022Football_ADM.pdf

 

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10 hours ago, DT said:

My proposal is based off the Oklahoma model, which actually works better for Indiana than it does for the Okies.

http://www.ossaa.net/docs/2019-20/Football/Tentative 2020-2021_AND_2021-2022Football_ADM.pdf

 

You are right that it probably works better for Indiana than Oklahoma.  They have almost the same enrollment gap for schools 1-16 (division 1) as Indiana has for schools 1-32 (all of 6A).  15 of their 16 division 1 schools are in the OKC and Tulsa metro areas.  The one that isn’t (Enid) is the smallest of those 16.  8-man football for the smallest schools would be the best thing to take from their plan in my opinion.

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36 minutes ago, HoopsCoach said:

You are right that it probably works better for Indiana than Oklahoma.  They have almost the same enrollment gap for schools 1-16 (division 1) as Indiana has for schools 1-32 (all of 6A).  15 of their 16 division 1 schools are in the OKC and Tulsa metro areas.  The one that isn’t (Enid) is the smallest of those 16.  8-man football for the smallest schools would be the best thing to take from their plan in my opinion.

I lived in Enid, OK for 3 years.  Austin Box was the star player for the Enid Plainsmen, QB on offense and LB on defense.  He went to OU and trajically died from an overdose of painkillers.  

I remember the first time I ever saw him play.  It was an after school practice.  He moved light lightning.  Quickest player Ive ever seen.  

Im sure you are aware Im not a fan of 8Man football.  I dont believe the "football culture" in Indiana is strong enough to support 8 man, like it is in Oklahoma, Texas and rural Kansas.  Just my opinion.  If a school in Indiana cannot field a small 1A program, it should drop the sport and invest in other activities.  

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Of note, ALL of Illinois' classes (except football) are asymmetrical. Classes 4A and 3A have 22.2% of schools, the remainder are split equally among 2A and 1A. 

(Football in Illinois - the tournament fields and classes are determined *after* the season once the qualifiers are announced). 

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