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Should the IHSAA have two classes that each have 32 teams? If so, where should they be?

Or alternatively, should only one asymmetric class exist with 32 teams, and all other classes contain the same number of teams?

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I propose we reduce 6A to 24 schools.  This basically makes 6A an "Indy Centric" class, and pushes all of the tier 2 cities (Terre Haute, Lafayette, Bloomington, Columbus, Evansville) down to 5A or below.  There will be some 6A northern schools still in the mix, as hilited below.  They are big enough to be in the mix relative to the overall 6A group.

Classes 1-5 will have 60 schools in each class.

Class 6A  - 24 schools

1112 Carmel High School 1359 1338 1267 1322 5286 2221 Ben Davis High School 1263 1075 1100 1061 4499 3433 Warren Central High School 961 962 960 938 3821 4344 North Central (Indpls.) High School 973 939 872 943 3727 5 7 9 14 Fishers High School 950 887 862 810 3509 6555 Penn High School 840 856 782 860 3338 7866 Lake Central High School 827 850 795 844 3316 8677 Pike High School 909 825 792 769 3295 9988 Hamilton Southeastern HS 827 803 840 803 3273 10 10 10 12 Avon High School 838 770 724 763 3095 11 11 11 10 Noblesville High School 805 744 750 702 3001 12 12 12 11 Crown Point High School 735 704 697 719 2855 13 14 16 18 Brownsburg High School 726 676 693 715 2810 14 13 13 13 Franklin Central High School 759 719 700 626 2804 15 33 44 16 Indpls. Arsenal Technical High School 614 716 696 582 2608 16 17 19 20 Lawrence North High School 702 607 632 655 2596 17 16 15 17 Center Grove High School 648 640 630 603 2521 18 18 20 23 Perry Meridian High School 626 619 605 595 2445 19 15 14 9 Portage High School 620 586 621 609 2436 20 19 18 21 Homestead Senior High School 678 580 586 580 2424 21 21 24 28 Carroll (F.W.) High School 597 652 598 565 2412 22 25 34 40 Westfield High School 668 573 563 530 2334 23 20 17 15 Lawrence Central High School 539 565 616 570 2290 Elkhart High School  

 

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11 hours ago, superjay said:

6A & 1A.  Should be 32 teams.  6A because of enrollment gaps.  1A because of roster sizes.  A bye week would help small rosters of 30-40 players more than 5A 70-100 player rosters.

Originally, I thought that the 32 in 1A would provide smaller teams more opportunity than they've had and, to some extent that would be true, but I ran some quick back-of-the-envelope numbers and I'm not sure that limiting teams to 32 in 1A drastically changes the landscape other than providing more opportunities to pick up red rings.  In looking at when teams won 1A state and their enrollments using current numbers, the following teams would have been unable to have played in the 1A state title game due to enrollment in the last decade ... * indicates won state and ** indicates lost at state to a team that would have been in the bottom 32:

  • Covenant Christian *
  • South Adams
  • Eastern Greene **
  • Linton * and **
  • Eastern Hancock **
  • Scecina **

Pioneer's right on the borderline, but I think they are closer to the bottom 32 than the top 32, so I included them in the bottom 32.  If you include them in the "upper 32" they would have both * and ** and Eastern Greene would fall off of the list.

If we go back two decades, using today's numbers, the list would grow a bit:

  • Fountain Central **
  • Ritter *
  • Sheridan *
  • Knightstown
  • Seeger *
  • South Putnam **
  • Perry Central **

Note that, even with the bigger teams, many of them succumbed to teams that would have been put in the lower 32 by enrollment ... even more so in the last decade.

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On 2/14/2021 at 8:17 AM, DT said:

I propose we reduce 6A to 24 schools.  This basically makes 6A an "Indy Centric" class, and pushes all of the tier 2 cities (Terre Haute, Lafayette, Bloomington, Columbus, Evansville) down to 5A or below.  There will be some 6A northern schools still in the mix, as hilited below.  They are big enough to be in the mix relative to the overall 6A group.

Classes 1-5 will have 60 schools in each class.

Class 6A  - 24 schools

1112 Carmel High School 1359 1338 1267 1322 5286 2221 Ben Davis High School 1263 1075 1100 1061 4499 3433 Warren Central High School 961 962 960 938 3821 4344 North Central (Indpls.) High School 973 939 872 943 3727 5 7 9 14 Fishers High School 950 887 862 810 3509 6555 Penn High School 840 856 782 860 3338 7866 Lake Central High School 827 850 795 844 3316 8677 Pike High School 909 825 792 769 3295 9988 Hamilton Southeastern HS 827 803 840 803 3273 10 10 10 12 Avon High School 838 770 724 763 3095 11 11 11 10 Noblesville High School 805 744 750 702 3001 12 12 12 11 Crown Point High School 735 704 697 719 2855 13 14 16 18 Brownsburg High School 726 676 693 715 2810 14 13 13 13 Franklin Central High School 759 719 700 626 2804 15 33 44 16 Indpls. Arsenal Technical High School 614 716 696 582 2608 16 17 19 20 Lawrence North High School 702 607 632 655 2596 17 16 15 17 Center Grove High School 648 640 630 603 2521 18 18 20 23 Perry Meridian High School 626 619 605 595 2445 19 15 14 9 Portage High School 620 586 621 609 2436 20 19 18 21 Homestead Senior High School 678 580 586 580 2424 21 21 24 28 Carroll (F.W.) High School 597 652 598 565 2412 22 25 34 40 Westfield High School 668 573 563 530 2334 23 20 17 15 Lawrence Central High School 539 565 616 570 2290 Elkhart High School  

 

Nope. Keep 6A at 32 and put 32 in class A. That’s the best way to do it. 

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45 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

Nope. Keep 6A at 32 and put 32 in class A. That’s the best way to do it. 

If you are going to keep 32 schools in 6A, then you need to split 6A into two groups, 6A Division 1 (1-16) and 6A Division 2 (17-32)  You simply have 2 separate 4 week tournaments running concurrently.  

There really is a difference between a "mega" school and a "6A" school.  Megas have 3000 plus enrollment while 6A have 2200-2900.  These numbers are approximate but create a much better overall competitive environment for the schools.

Merrillville with 2200 students should not be expected to compete with Carmel and Ben Davis at 5000 plus.  Where is the logic in that?

The constant ebb and flow of demographic and migration patterns in Indiana necessitate fluidity in the class structure.  Change is constant.  Need to maintain flexibillity in order to promote competitive balance and fairness across the board.

 

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Class 6A Division 1

1112 Carmel High School 1359 1338 1267 1322 5286 2221 Ben Davis High School 1263 1075 1100 1061 4499 3433 Warren Central High School 961 962 960 938 3821 4344 North Central (Indpls.) High School 973 939 872 943 3727 5 7 9 14 Fishers High School 950 887 862 810 3509 6555 Penn High School 840 856 782 860 3338 7866 Lake Central High School 827 850 795 844 3316 8677 Pike High School 909 825 792 769 3295 9988 Hamilton Southeastern HS 827 803 840 803 3273 10 10 10 12 Avon High School 838 770 724 763 3095 11 11 11 10 Noblesville High School 805 744 750 702 3001 12 12 12 11 Crown Point High School 735 704 697 719 2855 13 14 16 18 Brownsburg High School 726 676 693 715 2810 14 13 13 13 Franklin Central High School 759 719 700 626 2804 15 33 44 16 Indpls. Arsenal Technical High School 614 716 696 582 2608 Elkhart High School   

Class 6A Division 2

16 17 19 20 Lawrence North High School 702 607 632 655 2596 17 16 15 17 Center Grove High School 648 640 630 603 2521 18 18 20 23 Perry Meridian High School 626 619 605 595 2445 19 15 14 9 Portage High School 620 586 621 609 2436 20 19 18 21 Homestead Senior High School 678 580 586 580 2424 21 21 24 28 Carroll (F.W.) High School 597 652 598 565 2412 22 25 34 40 Westfield High School 668 573 563 530 2334 23 20 17 15 Lawrence Central High School 539 565 616 570 2290 24 23 26 26 Southport High School 588 589 559 518 2254 25 22 21 19 Merrillville High Sch 564 527 557 539 2187 26 24 25 25 Warsaw Community HS 548 511 518 526 2103 27 30 33 32 Lafayette Jefferson High School 587 492 546 438 2063 28 31 28 29 Columbus North High School 568 535 470 490 2063 29 28 29 30 Chesterton Senior High School 561 512 509 481 2063 30 36 43 44 Zionsville Community High Sch 553 504 492 506 2055 31 27 27 24 Valparaiso High School 511 477 529 537 2054

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, DT said:

Class 6A Division 1

1112 Carmel High School 1359 1338 1267 1322 5286 2221 Ben Davis High School 1263 1075 1100 1061 4499 3433 Warren Central High School 961 962 960 938 3821 4344 North Central (Indpls.) High School 973 939 872 943 3727 5 7 9 14 Fishers High School 950 887 862 810 3509 6555 Penn High School 840 856 782 860 3338 7866 Lake Central High School 827 850 795 844 3316 8677 Pike High School 909 825 792 769 3295 9988 Hamilton Southeastern HS 827 803 840 803 3273 10 10 10 12 Avon High School 838 770 724 763 3095 11 11 11 10 Noblesville High School 805 744 750 702 3001 12 12 12 11 Crown Point High School 735 704 697 719 2855 13 14 16 18 Brownsburg High School 726 676 693 715 2810 14 13 13 13 Franklin Central High School 759 719 700 626 2804 15 33 44 16 Indpls. Arsenal Technical High School 614 716 696 582 2608 Elkhart High School   

Class 6A Division 2

16 17 19 20 Lawrence North High School 702 607 632 655 2596 17 16 15 17 Center Grove High School 648 640 630 603 2521 18 18 20 23 Perry Meridian High School 626 619 605 595 2445 19 15 14 9 Portage High School 620 586 621 609 2436 20 19 18 21 Homestead Senior High School 678 580 586 580 2424 21 21 24 28 Carroll (F.W.) High School 597 652 598 565 2412 22 25 34 40 Westfield High School 668 573 563 530 2334 23 20 17 15 Lawrence Central High School 539 565 616 570 2290 24 23 26 26 Southport High School 588 589 559 518 2254 25 22 21 19 Merrillville High Sch 564 527 557 539 2187 26 24 25 25 Warsaw Community HS 548 511 518 526 2103 27 30 33 32 Lafayette Jefferson High School 587 492 546 438 2063 28 31 28 29 Columbus North High School 568 535 470 490 2063 29 28 29 30 Chesterton Senior High School 561 512 509 481 2063 30 36 43 44 Zionsville Community High Sch 553 504 492 506 2055 31 27 27 24 Valparaiso High School 511 477 529 537 2054

 

 

 

Does the winner of both tournaments face each other?

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6A should be 16 teams. For the next cycle it would be the 15 biggest schools plus Center Grove.

Class 6A Carmel 5414 Ben Davis 4617 North Central 3754 Warren Central 3690 Fishers 3689 Penn 3430 Hamilton Southeastern 3399 Pike 3392 Lake Central 3271 Elkhart 3235 Avon 3194 Noblesville 3091 Franklin Central 3049 Crown Point 2925 Brownsburg 2876 Center Grove 2624 UP due to success factor. 

Move the bottom 16 schools down to 5A. 

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21 minutes ago, CGFan2017 said:

Does the winner of both tournaments face each other?

No   But D2 schools can move up to D1 via the SF.

I really like the opportunities here for the 6AD2 schools.  With the exception of CG, none are in the post season conversation in terms of being a legit title contender.  Lots of potential for new schools to get a shot at playing at LOS on TG wknd

A Columbus North vs Warsaw matchup for instance would be very intriguing.

Or Lafayette Jeff vs Lawrence North

Lots of new faces and new schools in the finals

 

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2 hours ago, DT said:

If you are going to keep 32 schools in 6A, then you need to split 6A into two groups, 6A Division 1 (1-16) and 6A Division 2 (17-32)  You simply have 2 separate 4 week tournaments running concurrently.  

There really is a difference between a "mega" school and a "6A" school.  Megas have 3000 plus enrollment while 6A have 2200-2900.  These numbers are approximate but create a much better overall competitive environment for the schools.

Merrillville with 2200 students should not be expected to compete with Carmel and Ben Davis at 5000 plus.  Where is the logic in that?

The constant ebb and flow of demographic and migration patterns in Indiana necessitate fluidity in the class structure.  Change is constant.  Need to maintain flexibillity in order to promote competitive balance and fairness across the board.

 

I agree that some schools have an abundance amount of students. But at some point does it really matter? You can’t solve everything. Just like you can’t solve Central Indiana being dominant over northern indiana in football. It is what it is. You can’t have a league of 16 teams. That’s too small.

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Every couple years this same discussion occurs.  Here is a little insight on why things are the way they are right now.

First off when this was all established I pushed for a 32 team 6A, and a 32 team 1A but not a lot of support existed for that setup.  While I still support that model, I will tell you that the the final product is probably the correct way to do it.   Here is the mindset behind the current setup.  

Currently in 6A you have a 5286 enrollment at the top and 2054 at the bottom. On initial investigation this looks like the top of the class is 250% the size of the bottom of the class.  While this is true it's not anywhere close to even proportional spread throughout the class.  We have two very large outliers in Carmel, and BD.  If you remove them the gap from top to bottom is 180%.  Or well within the 2x range.   5A sits in the 140%.   The gap in 6A certainly is still bigger than 5A but not but not at the scale it first appears.  

 

If you were to put the top 32 in 6A, and then make an even 64 in 5A.  The gap in 5A grows to larger than the 6A spread, not by a lot but it his the 2x wall you'd try to avoid.  

 

Let's look at the 1A  level then  currently it appears 1A is at over a 3x spread.  380 largest school vs. 121 smallest.  But again the outlier problem misleads reality in that class.  If you take out the bottom two schools (actually it's 3 right now, two have the same number)  you get below the 2x line at about 190%.   Now what happens if you put the bottom 32 in a class by themselves (and cut out the outliers) The gap drops to below 140%.  This would mark one of the smallest gaps.  

In addition when you do that the 2A gap goes up, the 3A gap goes up, and the 4A gap goes up.   

At the end of the day if you take out the outliers at the very top and very bottom the current setup produces the most tightly compacted classes we can (while still attempting to keep to the 64 or 32 team model).  

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42 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

I agree that some schools have an abundance amount of students. But at some point does it really matter? You can’t solve everything. Just like you can’t solve Central Indiana being dominant over northern indiana in football. It is what it is. You can’t have a league of 16 teams. That’s too small.

I disagree.  16 schools still gives you a 4 week tournament.  Thats plenty to determine a champion.  We will continue to see the same 4 or 5 teams in the 6A title game every year if a move is not made to create some separation between the big schools and the mega schools.  School corporations have decided that it is more cost effective to expand existing campus space than to build new schools and duplicate staff.  Makes complete sense to me.  But this creates more mega schools.  When the tournament was expanded to 6 classes, we had 4 schools over 3000 students.  Today we have 12 over 3000 and 3 or 4 more within striking distance in a few years.  Those changes need to be accounted for in the class structure.  Currently they are being ignored.  This should be fixed.  

 

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DT classification systems shouldn't be created as a response to a couple schools it should be developed in a way that benefits most (if not all) schools in a similar fashion.  

Your breakdown takes a class where the smallest school is about 40% of the biggest, by creating two classes where one group gets a gap thats about 49% while the other class has a gap it's about 75%.   That's hardly an equitable split for the teams in your top breakdown.  

An equitable break down puts Carmel, BD, and Warren in a class, and the other 29 in their own class.   Obviously that's incredibly silly to do such a thing.  The IHSAA would be better off keeping the same 32 setup but lumping the three in their own sectional along with North Central.  But obviously there are financial implications of such a move.  

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15 minutes ago, CoachGallogly said:

DT classification systems shouldn't be created as a response to a couple schools it should be developed in a way that benefits most (if not all) schools in a similar fashion.  

Your breakdown takes a class where the smallest school is about 40% of the biggest, by creating two classes where one group gets a gap thats about 49% while the other class has a gap it's about 75%.   That's hardly an equitable split for the teams in your top breakdown.  

An equitable break down puts Carmel, BD, and Warren in a class, and the other 29 in their own class.   Obviously that's incredibly silly to do such a thing.  The IHSAA would be better off keeping the same 32 setup but lumping the three in their own sectional along with North Central.  But obviously there are financial implications of such a move.  

Youre missing my main point.  We are seeig exponential growth of mega schools.  When your group first created and populated 6A, therer were only 4 schools with 3000 plus enrollment (CA/BD/WC/NC)  Today there are a dozen , and we will have 16 within 5 years.  This is a significant change when compared to the original class makeup.

Lets throw Carmel out because it is what it is and will always be in the biggest class.  In the 2 division setup, you have a spread or 4500 high (Ben davis) and 2600 low  (Tech)  That low number is going to continue to creep up until it goes over 3000.  That is a very reasonable gap for the mega schools , in my view.

The real winners here are the 6AD2 schools.  The gap here is 2600 high to 2100 low.  This will be a very competitive class and the big gain for the IHSAA is your bring 16 schools into the championship picture that were not there previously.  That means more $ and much more interest at both the state and local levels.  

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Imagine the impact on participation at the 6AD2 schools we might see under this set up.  If your team has a legit shot at a state title, participation will undoubtedly increase.  We will see more emphasis on stronger coaching and better facilities at these schools as well.  

WIN WIN WIN  

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All of these plans assume the premise the only way to have a successful season is to win a championship. There are other ways to measure success. High school sports are much more than just winning championships. My children all had wonderful high school athletics experiences and the most they won was a sectional championship. I've never officiated a state championship and probably never will. It doesn't mean I consider my officiating career a failure.

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1 hour ago, JustRules said:

All of these plans assume the premise the only way to have a successful season is to win a championship. There are other ways to measure success. High school sports are much more than just winning championships. My children all had wonderful high school athletics experiences and the most they won was a sectional championship. I've never officiated a state championship and probably never will. It doesn't mean I consider my officiating career a failure.

I agree with you completely.  On the other hand, The IHSAA is responsible for providing a fair and competitive and balanced playing field for its member schools.  Every time a change in class is made, or a tool like the Success Factor is considered, or even a radical change like The Multiplier is considered, the IHSAA is acting in the name of fairness and balance.  

As the population continues to shift to the Indy suburbs, its prudent to study how these migration patterns impact competition.  This is an ongoing process and should never be off the table at any given time.

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2 hours ago, JustRules said:

My children all had wonderful high school athletics experiences and the most they won was a sectional championship.

That is a major accomplishment in and of itself. I still vividly remember BNL's Sectional title in 2011. 

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4 hours ago, JustRules said:

All of these plans assume the premise the only way to have a successful season is to win a championship. There are other ways to measure success. High school sports are much more than just winning championships. My children all had wonderful high school athletics experiences and the most they won was a sectional championship. I've never officiated a state championship and probably never will. It doesn't mean I consider my officiating career a failure.

Truer words have never been spoken.  I never made it bast Semi-State in any of my athletic endeavors, does that make my time playing worthless?  Of course not.  Winning a state title is tough.  Just being in the moment with your friends is also a reward.

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