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State Breakdown Clarification


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Greetings,

 

I am from South Carolina and looking for clarification on how the systems work for your state. I am doing research on a proposal and have been attempting to contact leagues directly but they are slow to respond. 

For my state, we are divided into 5 classes, each with 2 divisions (Upper and Lower State), and there are 8 "regions" in each class. That is as far as our breakdown goes. 

If a team were to win "Region" they would be a top seed when entering into the playoffs of the upper or lower state bracket. From there they compete make it to Lower or Upper State finals (State Semis) and then reach the Final. I have read for your state, they classify a "Sectional Champion", "Regional Champion", "Semi-State Champ" which I would assume is the equivalent to Lower/Upper for us, and then a "State Champion" which is the same for us. Where I get lost is the Sectional and Regional. Maybe we do not break our divisions down that far but I wanted to ask. 

 

Sorry for the long post, just wanted clarity because the proposal I am working on needs fine details and other states are being used as references.

 

Much appreciation to everyone who read this and responds.

 

Eric

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21 hours ago, SK197 said:

Greetings,

 

I am from South Carolina and looking for clarification on how the systems work for your state. I am doing research on a proposal and have been attempting to contact leagues directly but they are slow to respond. 

For my state, we are divided into 5 classes, each with 2 divisions (Upper and Lower State), and there are 8 "regions" in each class. That is as far as our breakdown goes. 

If a team were to win "Region" they would be a top seed when entering into the playoffs of the upper or lower state bracket. From there they compete make it to Lower or Upper State finals (State Semis) and then reach the Final. I have read for your state, they classify a "Sectional Champion", "Regional Champion", "Semi-State Champ" which I would assume is the equivalent to Lower/Upper for us, and then a "State Champion" which is the same for us. Where I get lost is the Sectional and Regional. Maybe we do not break our divisions down that far but I wanted to ask. 

 

Sorry for the long post, just wanted clarity because the proposal I am working on needs fine details and other states are being used as references.

 

Much appreciation to everyone who read this and responds.

 

Eric

 

10 minutes ago, Purdue Pete said:

Everyone gets in.  No seeding.  6 classes based on enrollment.

Reclassification based on enrollment every 2 years

 

Also to note:  SUCCESS FACTOR     if your team earns 6 points in 2 years you automically move up a class:    You earn points:  1 point being Sectional Champion, 2 points Regional Champ, 3 points Semi State  Champin and 4 points State champion.   

If playing up a class due to success factor, you can move up another class if you earn 6 points in the next 2 year cycle, or remain in the same classification if you earn 4 points, but move back down ot your enrollment class if you failed to earn 4 points playing "UP" a class due to success factor.   

 

As stated:  BLIND DRAW into Sectionals,  Home and Away teams are figured out at each round based on a the blind draw . 

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11 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

 

Reclassification based on enrollment every 2 years

 

Also to note:  SUCCESS FACTOR     if your team earns 6 points in 2 years you automically move up a class:    You earn points:  1 point being Sectional Champion, 2 points Regional Champ, 3 points Semi State  Champin and 4 points State champion.   

If playing up a class due to success factor, you can move up another class if you earn 6 points in the next 2 year cycle, or remain in the same classification if you earn 4 points, but move back down ot your enrollment class if you failed to earn 4 points playing "UP" a class due to success factor.   

 

As stated:  BLIND DRAW into Sectionals,  Home and Away teams are figured out at each round based on a the blind draw . 

So if I'm a 3A school (enrollment) and earn 6 points, I move to 4A. Then if I earn another 6pts I got to 5A; Get 4-5pts stay 4A; earn less than 4 drop down to 3A. Correct?

 

What happens if I move from 4A to 3A enrollment and still earned the 6pts from playing 4A, do I stay in 4A or move to 5A?

 

I have a lot of questions. Sorry

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great place to come for your questions to be answered:  keep firing away 

 

Yes, 3a school with that enorllment earns 6 points and will go to 4a.   While in 4a, they earn another 6 points, then they will be playing in 5a.   Then while in 5a, they earn 4 points in that 2 year cycle, they STAY in 5a.   if they DO NOT earn 4 points, they drop down 1 class only, to 4a, they DO NOT drop to their current enrollment figures.  

Some like to call that the Cathedral clause from a few years ago, they are always 4a, then got up to 6a, but didn't earn enough to stay in 6a, so instead of dropping to 4a, they were put back to 5a, I believe IHSAA had to make an ammendment to that by-law after the Success Factor was instituted.  

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I urge your compatriots in South Carolina to investigate the use of a true system of promotion & relegation for your football playing schools.  It makes all this mostly enrollment based & "success factor" nonsense go away.    High school football teams will be classified based on the historical successes and failures of their overall program,  not their arbitrary enrollment figure.

 

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12 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

great place to come for your questions to be answered:  keep firing away 

 

Yes, 3a school with that enorllment earns 6 points and will go to 4a.   While in 4a, they earn another 6 points, then they will be playing in 5a.   Then while in 5a, they earn 4 points in that 2 year cycle, they STAY in 5a.   if they DO NOT earn 4 points, they drop down 1 class only, to 4a, they DO NOT drop to their current enrollment figures.  

Some like to call that the Cathedral clause from a few years ago, they are always 4a, then got up to 6a, but didn't earn enough to stay in 6a, so instead of dropping to 4a, they were put back to 5a, I believe IHSAA had to make an ammendment to that by-law after the Success Factor was instituted.  

Isn't the "stay up" now only 2 points? (Thanks, Cathedral) 

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15 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Isn't the "stay up" now only 2 points? (Thanks, Cathedral) 

Good question there.

 

Now is there an actual relegation in the IHSAA? Say a 3A school is completely outclassed at 3A but competes well against 2A schools. Does it get to move down or is it stuck at 3A?

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41 minutes ago, SK197 said:

What happens if I move from 4A to 3A enrollment and still earned the 6pts from playing 4A, do I stay in 4A or move to 5A?

Keep in mind in this scenario, I moved up due to #'s to 4A but already competed in 4A due to success factor. Do I stay in 4A or move up to 5A to compete?

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2 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

if they DO NOT earn 4 points, they drop down 1 class only

 

1 hour ago, oldtimeqb said:

Isn't the "stay up" now only 2 points? (Thanks, Cathedral) 

Correct - if a program earns 2-5 points in a cycle they “stay up”.  6 points and they move up another class (unless they are in the highest class already).  1 or 0 points and they move down a class.

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1 hour ago, SK197 said:

Good question there.

 

Now is there an actual relegation in the IHSAA? Say a 3A school is completely outclassed at 3A but competes well against 2A schools. Does it get to move down or is it stuck at 3A?

It is stuck at 3A. Schools cannot drop below their enrollment class

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oops, stuck in the old way 

37 minutes ago, HoopsCoach said:

 

Correct - if a program earns 2-5 points in a cycle they “stay up”.  6 points and they move up another class (unless they are in the highest class already).  1 or 0 points and they move down a class.

 

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12 minutes ago, SK197 said:

Ok that is what I was curious about?  About usually how many schools go up and down per year?

Great questions.  It's not every year, but rather every 2 or (maybe 3) years.  Then again, my alma mater currently won't be moving up anytime soon, but in the cyclical nature of high school sports, anything is possible.  Play a few holes at Palmetto Dunes for me.

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21 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

 

Reclassification based on enrollment every 2 years

 

Also to note:  SUCCESS FACTOR     if your team earns 6 points in 2 years you automically move up a class:    You earn points:  1 point being Sectional Champion, 2 points Regional Champ, 3 points Semi State  Champin and 4 points State champion.   

If playing up a class due to success factor, you can move up another class if you earn 6 points in the next 2 year cycle, or remain in the same classification if you earn 4 points, but move back down ot your enrollment class if you failed to earn 4 points playing "UP" a class due to success factor.   

 

As stated:  BLIND DRAW into Sectionals,  Home and Away teams are figured out at each round based on a the blind draw . 

Blind Draw Bingo

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6 minutes ago, Gipper said:

Thanks for the clarification!

Random balls in a Bingo Machine... can you think of a better way for a blind draw, unless it was computer generated ?  But wait, here comes the outcry of manipulation. Gotta admit the old Bingo Machine creates a sense of intrigue every year as we set with bated breath as out section is drawn.

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6 minutes ago, Goose Liver said:

Random balls in a Bingo Machine... can you think of a better way for a blind draw, unless it was computer generated ?  But wait, here comes the outcry of manipulation. Gotta admit the old Bingo Machine creates a sense of intrigue every year as we set with bated breath as out section is drawn.

Then again, conspiracy theories do make it more fun and provide an outlet for some unnamed posters...

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SK197, 

Thank you for this wonderful live example of how ridiculous of a system we use here in Indiana. No we do not have the corner on ridiculous, as I’m sure your research will bear out. 

If you have difficulty explaining how simple it is, it ain’t simple. If you have to continuously tweak it, it ain’t working!

This is what happens when humanity tries to make things “fair”. Fair is you line up and play the game and the best team wins. 

We spend a lot of time arguing about P/P bias, city speed, super-conferences, contraction, etc. Yet at the end of the day, we ALL love Indiana high school football. 

We spend all this time and effort to make things fair for a game children play (did I just sound like Muda? aaaagh). Then expect them to compete in a grown up world that is not fair. Momma used to say “Life is not fair, get used to it!” Daddy said “Get better or keep getting beat, your choice.”

I trust you gained the info you needed for your presentation to your local association. If they are anything like the IHSAA, fair and common sense will be foreign to them. 

Thanks again for an eye opening inquiry.

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14 minutes ago, SenatorFan said:

SK197, 

Thank you for this wonderful live example of how ridiculous of a system we use here in Indiana. No we do not have the corner on ridiculous, as I’m sure your research will bear out. 

If you have difficulty explaining how simple it is, it ain’t simple. If you have to continuously tweak it, it ain’t working!

This is what happens when humanity tries to make things “fair”. Fair is you line up and play the game and the best team wins. 

We spend a lot of time arguing about P/P bias, city speed, super-conferences, contraction, etc. Yet at the end of the day, we ALL love Indiana high school football. 

We spend all this time and effort to make things fair for a game children play (did I just sound like Muda? aaaagh). Then expect them to compete in a grown up world that is not fair. Momma used to say “Life is not fair, get used to it!” Daddy said “Get better or keep getting beat, your choice.”

I trust you gained the info you needed for your presentation to your local association. If they are anything like the IHSAA, fair and common sense will be foreign to them. 

Thanks again for an eye opening inquiry.

I love the "get better" analogy...

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