Should something be done to fix 6A?

[temptation]

1 minute ago, Indiana Fan said:

Yes enrollment can be unfair for 6A, but at some point you can't do anything about it. I mean CG competes and beats Carmel and they have half the amount of students. I feel like at a certain point it does not matter. It is never going to be truly 100% fair. Same can go for anything in life. It won't be changed and it shouldn't be changed. 

For every Center Grove there is a Southport, Perry Meridian, Arsenal Tech and Lake Central.

Imagine asking an FCS team to play 9 FBS schools annually.  That’s akin to what the four schools above are being asked to do.

[jets]

Am I the only one reading through this thinking "Good gosh - if you can't field a competitive football team with 2,000+ students in your building, maybe you've got other issues other than what class you're playing in? " 

Just a thought....

[temptation]

Just now, jets said:

Am I the only one reading through this thinking "Good gosh - if you can't field a competitive football team with 2,000+ students in your building, maybe you've got other issues other than what class you're playing in? " 

Just a thought....

Maybe.  But it’s deeper than that.

[Bobref]

25 minutes ago, temptation said:

Both statements can be true at the same time Bobby.

And they can both be false.

[foxbat]

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

 

I don’t think 16 teams is enough for a “class.” Frankly, I’m not that comfortable with 24, but at least it’s better than 16. And as far as a process for determining byes, who cares? Pick a way. It’s not rocket science.

Already got the ping pong balls out at that point.  Might as well use them for that too and knock down the per use cost.

[RegionFBFan]

32 minutes ago, temptation said:

Simply put:  Numbers matter...A LOT

Facts support the statement. 6 of the first 8 champions in 6A (almost 70%) are the three largest schools, Carmel, BD, and WC. Big time props to CG for their 2 titles against these mega schools.

The answer is not in expanding to another class (7A). Agree with DT's proposal, although 24 schools still seems like too many. Why not 16 in 6A, drop the remaining 16 into 5A and rebalance all classes?

 

[temptation]

6 minutes ago, Bobref said:

And they can both be false.

One of them is in a unequivocally true. Stats and data support it.

The other cannot be proven in either direction but to me it’s common sense.

[foxbat]

2 hours ago, temptation said:

Eh, I think asking a school of 2400 to play against a school of 5200 is dangerous.  
 

That’s an issue.

I'd venture a guess that, if we are talking safety, it's more dangerous with the differentials in 1A than the differentials in 6A.  In 6A, you still only get to put 11 on the field at a time out of the 100 or so that end up on your team.  In 1A, that 11 may include the guy that was the team manager at the start of the season.

Incidentally, for perspective,  when Cathedral was playing 6A with 1,000 enrollment,  even using a 2.5 multiplier, that would have put them around that 2,400 number. 

[BDGiant93]

This is an interesting discussion. The issue isn't numbers to me, it's success. There is no success factor that can graduate the megas out of a class, so I would advocate some sort of "equality matrix" or something that would move down teams in classes that have enrollment but do not have football success. 

I'd do that, and I'd seed 6A 1-32. Forget the Sectional/Regional/Semi-State model.

None of this will happen though. 

[temptation]

19 minutes ago, foxbat said:

I'd venture a guess that, if we are talking safety, it's more dangerous with the differentials in 1A than the differentials in 6A.  In 6A, you still only get to put 11 on the field at a time out of the 100 or so that end up on your team.  In 1A, that 11 may include the guy that was the team manager at the start of the season.

Incidentally, for perspective,  when Cathedral was playing 6A with 1,000 enrollment,  even using a 2.5 multiplier, that would have put them around that 2,400 number. 

Don’t disagree necessarily but there are no 2/1 ratios in 1A and the speed of the game and size of the players is not nearly the same.

[Indiana Fan]

57 minutes ago, DT said:

The IHSAA has been tweaking the classes since 1973.  We went from 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 classes.  About one change per decade.  We will soon be due for the next change.  

That won't be much fun to have a class of 16 teams.

16 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

This is an interesting discussion. The issue isn't numbers to me, it's success. There is no success factor that can graduate the megas out of a class, so I would advocate some sort of "equality matrix" or something that would move down teams in classes that have enrollment but do not have football success. 

I'd do that, and I'd seed 6A 1-32. Forget the Sectional/Regional/Semi-State model.

None of this will happen though. 

I wouldn't mind seeding the north and seeding the south. 16 and 16. 

[temptation]

13 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

This is an interesting discussion. The issue isn't numbers to me, it's success. There is no success factor that can graduate the megas out of a class, so I would advocate some sort of "equality matrix" or something that would move down teams in classes that have enrollment but do not have football success. 

I'd do that, and I'd seed 6A 1-32. Forget the Sectional/Regional/Semi-State model.

None of this will happen though. 

So if you are marginalizing numbers, explain why can’t the programs I mentioned above get off the ground?

Southport has been the best of the bunch and won a couple of sectionals BECAUSE Tech/Perry were in their path.

 

[Bears62]

11 hours ago, DT said:

Class 6A should include only the Top 24 schools in enrollment.  This will basically be an All Indy Class with the exception of northern schools Penn, Elkhart, Lake Central,  Crown Point, Homestead and Carroll

The new 6A would isolate all the near 3000 plus enrollment schools into their own separate class

Small current 6a schools like Merrillville, Snider, Jeff, Valpo would be relegated to 5A, significantly strengthening 5A against the growing domination of Cathedral and Roncalli

 

 

I think DT hits the nail on the head. Top 24 in enrollment move to new 7a, coupled with the success factor (possibly adjusted slightly) seems like the best answer to me. It’s easy for people to say these teams outside of Indy just “need to do better.” On the outside, sure that looks fair but people fail to talk about how big a factor geography plays into this. Kids in Indianapolis grow up differently than all the other kids in the state. They have access to the best coaches, the best competition and all the attention needed to be great. For every great athlete in Fort Wayne or The Region or Lafayette there’s 4-5 just as great Indy athletes. And I’m not just talking about big recruits, I’m talking about the kid who’s too small to be a big recruit but has been competing his whole life with the best kids in the state and has truly earned his role on the team by having to beat out not only more, but better competition than the rest of Indiana.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Bears62

[oldtimeqb]

1 minute ago, Bears62 said:

I think DT hits the nail on the head. Top 24 in enrollment move to new 7a, coupled with the success factor (possibly adjusted slightly) seems like the best answer to me. It’s easy for people to say these teams outside of Indy just “need to do better.” On the outside, sure that looks fair but people fail to talk about how big a factor geography plays into this. Kids in Indianapolis grow up differently than all the other kids in the state. They have access to the best coaches, the best competition and all the attention needed to be great. For every great athlete in Fort Wayne or The Region or Lafayette there’s 4-5 just as great Indy athletes. And I’m not just talking about big recruits, I’m talking about the kid who’s too small to be a big recruit but has been competing his whole life with the best kids in the state and has truly earned his role on the team.

7A?  There is no need for a 7th class.  

There are currently 32 schools in 6A and 33 in 5A.  

So you move 24 to a 7A.  Are you proposing a 6A of 8 schools?  

[foxbat]

7 minutes ago, temptation said:

Don’t disagree necessarily but there are no 2/1 ratios in 1A and the speed of the game and size of the players is not nearly the same.

The school enrollment ratios are less important in 1A than the team ratios.  In 1A, there are teams with 30+ on the sideline against teams that are sometimes barely able to cobble together 11. 

It's pretty much the law of large numbers situation when we get to 6A and I would contend that a couple thousand is a decent starting number to get to similar quality levels from a random sampling of kids when looking at the top 11.  In 6A, the difference between the top 30 kids on the team is thin whereas, in 1A, the difference between the top 10 has pretty decent variance. 

Incidentally, the FBS/FCS argument doesn't really apply here.  It's kind of like comparing the finalists for the NCAA March Madness grouping vs. the NIT.  There's a selection/placement bias in place for FBS/FCS and NCAA/NIT whereas, while there can be a "selection bias" in high school football, the impact is less in 6A ball.

 

[Bears62]

1 minute ago, oldtimeqb said:

7A?  There is no need for a 7th class.  

There are currently 32 schools in 6A and 33 in 5A.  

So you move 24 to a 7A.  Are you proposing a 6A of 8 schools?  

Yes because finding a place for 8 schools would be just so incredibly difficult. Jesus

[Lysander]

3 hours ago, Bobref said:

But my real issue is we’re making radical changes to address what, 16 teams (the 16 smallest in a 32 team 6A)? Silly to let the tail wag the dog. 

Agreed.  That’s how we ended up with the 5A/6A split to start with.  

And guess what?  Those “new” 5A teams STILL couldn’t win their own tailor-made class.  Quality 4A teams came to dominate that class which was ripe for the taking.

Maybe certain schools just “do” football better at the moment.  

Honestly, the success of Center Grove against the mega-schools seems to make all these arguments moot.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Lysander

[oldtimeqb]

12 minutes ago, Bears62 said:

Yes because finding a place for 8 schools would be just so incredibly difficult. Jesus

You still didn't answer the question.  I'm trying to follow your math. Why 7 classes?

in 2020 there were 32 + 33 + 62 + 64 + 64 + 64 in classes 6A - 1A, respectively. If you create a 7th class, what do you do with the remaining teams?

 

[Indiana Fan]

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

The school enrollment ratios are less important in 1A than the team ratios.  In 1A, there are teams with 30+ on the sideline against teams that are sometimes barely able to cobble together 11. 

It's pretty much the law of large numbers situation when we get to 6A and I would contend that a couple thousand is a decent starting number to get to similar quality levels from a random sampling of kids when looking at the top 11.  In 6A, the difference between the top 30 kids on the team is thin whereas, in 1A, the difference between the top 10 has pretty decent variance. 

Incidentally, the FBS/FCS argument doesn't really apply here.  It's kind of like comparing the finalists for the NCAA March Madness grouping vs. the NIT.  There's a selection/placement bias in place for FBS/FCS and NCAA/NIT whereas, while there can be a "selection bias" in high school football, the impact is less in 6A ball.

 

I am still a firm believer in having 6A have 32 and 1A have 32. It would help for those incredibly small 1A teams with football. Now that would be fair. Then 5A can go back to around 64 teams.

[Bears62]

35 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

You still didn't answer the question.  I'm trying to follow your math. Why 7 classes?

in 2020 there were 32 + 33 + 62 + 64 + 64 + 64 in classes 6A - 1A, respectively. If you create a 7th class, what do you do with the remaining teams?

 

My apologies, I do not think 7 classes would be the right move. 24 in 6a and then the remaining 8 get moved to 5a would be ideal. Then the ihsaa could choose what to do in regard to balancing the classes if they wanted. Could move 5a to 34 schools or 36 or 40 and move others down as they see fit. We all love even numbers but having 1-2 teams out of a class have a first round sectional bye is not the end of the world and is a good trade off for a more balanced 5a and 6a.

[Guest DT]

39 minutes ago, Bears62 said:

My apologies, I do not think 7 classes would be the right move. 24 in 6a and then the remaining 8 get moved to 5a would be ideal. Then the ihsaa could choose what to do in regard to balancing the classes if they wanted. Could move 5a to 34 schools or 36 or 40 and move others down as they see fit. We all love even numbers but having 1-2 teams out of a class have a first round sectional bye is not the end of the world and is a good trade off for a more balanced 5a and 6a.

Bingo

[Guest DT]

Take a look at the schools being pushed out of 6a with a new 24 school top class

All are outside Indy

Merrillville

Warsaw

Chesterton

Jeffersonville

Castle 

Columbus North

Northrup

Valpo

None of these schools has a realistic chance at a 6a title

They will all have new life and high hopes in 5A

Edited April 19, 2021 by DT

[foxbat]

23 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

I am still a firm believer in having 6A have 32 and 1A have 32. It would help for those incredibly small 1A teams with football. Now that would be fair. Then 5A can go back to around 64 teams.

I actually posted on this in a different thread.  Logically, it  would seem like making 1A the smallest 32 schools would make it easier for smaller teams to have more opportunities.  If we are looking at a big/small school opportunity for heading to LOS, small schools, those in the bottom 32 of 1A, have actually had more appearances in LOS, and the little guy has also won more.  Matter of fact, in the last decade, the big guy has only won state twice and only one of those is against a small school ... assuming you count Pioneer as a small school.  You'll see from my post that Pioneer's right on the cusp.  I argue that they are closer to small school than large school both in terms of size and location, but if someone classifies them as big school 1A, then big schools have won four times out of ten, and because Linton beat Pioneer, Pioneer's win over North Vermillion would then be the only one classified as a big school beating a smaller 32 school.  In essence, the bottom 32 do fairly well than there bigger brothers in picking up blue rings in 1A ... and least in the last decade.

 

 

[Guest DT]

3 minutes ago, DT said:

Take a look at the schools being pushed out of 6a with a new 24 school top class

All are outside Indy

Merrillville

Warsaw

Chesterton

Jeffersonville

Castle 

Columbus North

Northrup

Valpo

None of these schools has a realistic chance at a 6a title

They will all have new life and high hopes in 5A

Imagine a Chesterton vs Jeffersonville or Laf Jeff vs Floyd Central 5a title game

Or northrup vs Columbus North 

[Guest DT]

New schools.  New cities.  More tournament revenue.