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Should something be done to fix 6A?


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31 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

This is a slap in the face to the coaches at Tech and schools like it who work darn hard to put a good product on the field yet face an entirely different set of circumstances than Coach Moore does. Heck, the Ben Davis and Warren staffs face entirely different circumstances than Coach Moore. 

What Coach Moore has done has been remarkable and I don't know how he coaches track AND football. Those are two HUGE sports and he's doing both and succeeding in both. He's a great coach for sure, but the idea that because Tech doesn't have a lot of success that those coaches aren't working hard is ridiculous. They do work hard, and their students need them in their lives.

Why do we keep using Tech as an example?  Obviously they have issues.  Nobody is denying that.  

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11 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

This "district investment" is yet another reason why the IHSAA should drop it's primarily enrollment based classification system and go to one of pure promotion/relegation.    Then these factors like socioeconomics, "working hard",  and district investment in a football program would ultimately be in the mix of where a school is classified.  The current enrollment based classification system for the most part (ie. success factor) ignores these factors when it should not. 

 

 

Maybe, but we both know that's not going to happen, so.......

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43 minutes ago, CoachGallogly said:

Agreed it's not just a "work harder" solution here.  That may be the case for some of these schools, and may not I'm not going down that path.  But it does require significant district investment to achieve that goal.  That is missing in many many school districts.   Take Brownsburg as an example.  10 years ago you'd never put them in the neighborhood of BD.  But the district has taken many steps from that list I gave earlier to improve the competitiveness of the district.  They may not have the complete investments that BD or Carmel has for their program, but it appears they are putting in great strides to match it sooner rather than later.  Brownsburg has done enough to compete with BD.  Even to the point of a two game winning streak against them.   This can be done at Lafayette Jeff, this can be done at Noblesville, this can be done at Homestead etc.    It's not easy and it's not over night but it can be done.  CG is the model, New Pal is the model, it can be replicated.     It's not about kids working harder alone, let's not simplify it to that.  The CG kids could bust their tails but if they didn't have the other pieces in place they'd have minor success.   

To the dropping 8-16 teams to 5A, we've been down this road before a decade ago.  Then the bottom of the top class was nearly 3 times smaller than the bigger schools, and over 4 times to the outliers.   6A was created to address the issue.  A 32 team 6A allowed for the bottom to be less than the 2x of the bigger schools.  That was a problem, it was addressed.  This "problem" is not in the same neighborhood of having a school of 1300 play at Warren Central, it's just not.  

The number of "Mega schools" in the state has changed in the years since the inception of 6A.

There were only 5 schools over 3000 in enrollment 10 to 15 years ago.  Today there are 11 and several just on the cusp of eclipsing 3000.  The increase in 3000 plus enrollment schools has actually flattened the curve between the highest and lowest 6A enrollments.  The reduction to 24 will take the next step in creating better parity within the class.  It will never be perfect, but it is incumbent upon the IHSAA to keep pushing towards greater balance when the opportunity arises.

 

"Mega Schools - 3000 plus enrollment

1112 Carmel High School 1359 1338 1267 1322 5286 2221 Ben Davis High School 1263 1075 1100 1061 4499 3433 Warren Central High School 961 962 960 938 3821 4344 North Central (Indpls.) High School 973 939 872 943 3727 5 7 9 14 Fishers High School 950 887 862 810 3509 6555 Penn High School 840 856 782 860 3338 7866 Lake Central High School 827 850 795 844 3316 8677 Pike High School 909 825 792 769 3295 9988 Hamilton Southeastern HS 827 803 840 803 3273 10 10 10 12 Avon High School 838 770 724 763 3095 11 11 11 10 Noblesville High School 805 744 750 702 3001

 

Soon to be "Mega" schools :

12 12 12 11 Crown Point High School 735 704 697 719 2855 13 14 16 18 Brownsburg High School 726 676 693 715 2810 14 13 13 13 Franklin Central High School 759 719 700 626 2804

Edited by DT
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5 minutes ago, DT said:

The number of "Mega schools" in the state has changed in the years since the inception of 6A.

There were only 5 schools over 3000 in enrollment 10 to 15 years ago.  Today there are 11 and several just on the cusp of eclipsing 3000.  The increase in 3000 plus enrollment schools has actually flattened the curve between the highest and lowest 6A enrollments.  The reduction to 24 will take the next step in creating better parity within the class.  It will never be perfect, but it is incumbent upon the IHSAA to keep pushing towards greater balance when the opportunity arises.

 

"Mega Schools - 3000 plus enrollment

1112 Carmel High School 1359 1338 1267 1322 5286 2221 Ben Davis High School 1263 1075 1100 1061 4499 3433 Warren Central High School 961 962 960 938 3821 4344 North Central (Indpls.) High School 973 939 872 943 3727 5 7 9 14 Fishers High School 950 887 862 810 3509 6555 Penn High School 840 856 782 860 3338 7866 Lake Central High School 827 850 795 844 3316 8677 Pike High School 909 825 792 769 3295 9988 Hamilton Southeastern HS 827 803 840 803 3273 10 10 10 12 Avon High School 838 770 724 763 3095 11 11 11 10 Noblesville High School 805 744 750 702 3001

 

Soon to be "Mega" schools :

12 12 12 11 Crown Point High School 735 704 697 719 2855 13 14 16 18 Brownsburg High School 726 676 693 715 2810 14 13 13 13 Franklin Central High School 759 719 700 626 2804

Also add condolidated Elkhart

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35 minutes ago, DT said:

The number of "Mega schools" in the state has changed in the years since the inception of 6A.

There were only 5 schools over 3000 in enrollment 10 to 15 years ago.  Today there are 11 and several just on the cusp of eclipsing 3000.  The increase in 3000 plus enrollment schools has actually flattened the curve between the highest and lowest 6A enrollments.  The reduction to 24 will take the next step in creating better parity within the class.  It will never be perfect, but it is incumbent upon the IHSAA to keep pushing towards greater balance when the opportunity arises.

 

"Mega Schools - 3000 plus enrollment

1112 Carmel High School 1359 1338 1267 1322 5286 2221 Ben Davis High School 1263 1075 1100 1061 4499 3433 Warren Central High School 961 962 960 938 3821 4344 North Central (Indpls.) High School 973 939 872 943 3727 5 7 9 14 Fishers High School 950 887 862 810 3509 6555 Penn High School 840 856 782 860 3338 7866 Lake Central High School 827 850 795 844 3316 8677 Pike High School 909 825 792 769 3295 9988 Hamilton Southeastern HS 827 803 840 803 3273 10 10 10 12 Avon High School 838 770 724 763 3095 11 11 11 10 Noblesville High School 805 744 750 702 3001

 

Soon to be "Mega" schools :

12 12 12 11 Crown Point High School 735 704 697 719 2855 13 14 16 18 Brownsburg High School 726 676 693 715 2810 14 13 13 13 Franklin Central High School 759 719 700 626 2804

Yes I agree more schools over 3000 exist, but I think that helps my argument more than yours competition is getting tighter now, the "middle" of 6A is closer to the top now than before. 

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44 minutes ago, CoachGallogly said:

Yes I agree more schools over 3000 exist, but I think that helps my argument more than yours competition is getting tighter now, the "middle" of 6A is closer to the top now than before. 

And the bottom is further away than ever  There is very little growth in the schools that would be dropped into 5A.  This is less an issue of the difference between the bottom 8 and WC/BD/CAR than is it the difference between the bottom 8 and AV/FI/HSE/BB  THose schols have grown by 20 to 25% in enrollment over the past decade.  The botttom 8 are flat or up/down single digits

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Tech actually WAS building something in the mid-2010s.  Anyone who watched their 2012 and 2013 teams would have recognized those teams as formidable despite their roughly .500 record (which was more than respectable given their schedule those 2 years).   As I recall, they lost a nail-biter to Carmel one of those years.

Then the wheels came off immediately thereafter and it was back to mediocrity.  BUT there was a brief time when they demonstrated it WAS possible at Tech.

I might not have used the phrase “work harder” that @Grover used but I absolutely agree with his point and what I think his intent was.  Programs can change but it takes buy-in at every level...including and especially at home after school and practice is over.  But “Working Harder” to me isn’t just simply about what kids do in practice - it’s about coaches, administrators, students and parents.

The most difficult part in most any task is just getting started the right way with appropriate forethought, planning and tools followed by actual effort.  Once started,  the inertia then moves in the direction of success rather than the reverse. 

Not to continue to beat this drum but Publics like Center Grove and New Pal have shown the path.   I won’t disagree that the socioeconomics make it a different (and more difficult) animal at Tech but they were on a successful path just a handful of years ago but it wasn’t sustained.

 
 

 

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12 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Tech actually WAS building something in the mid-2010s.  Anyone who watched their 2012 and 2013 teams would have recognized those teams as formidable despite their roughly .500 record (which was more than respectable given their schedule those 2 years).   As I recall, they lost a nail-biter to Carmel one of those years.

Then the wheels came off immediately thereafter and it was back to mediocrity.  BUT there was a brief time when they demonstrated it WAS possible at Tech.

I might not have used the phrase “work harder” that @Grover used but I absolutely agree with his point and what I think his intent was.  Programs can change but it takes buy-in at every level...including and especially at home after school and practice is over.  But “Working Harder” to me isn’t just simply about what kids do in practice - it’s about coaches, administrators, students and parents.

The most difficult part in most any task is just getting started the right way with appropriate forethought, planning and tools followed by actual effort.  Once started,  the inertia then moves in the direction of success rather than the reverse. 

Not to continue to beat this drum but Publics like Center Grove and New Pal have shown the path.   I won’t disagree that the socioeconomics make it a different (and more difficult) animal at Tech but they were on a successful path just a handful of years ago but it wasn’t sustained.

 
 

 

THIS!

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19 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Tech actually WAS building something in the mid-2010s.  Anyone who watched their 2012 and 2013 teams would have recognized those teams as formidable despite their roughly .500 record (which was more than respectable given their schedule those 2 years).   As I recall, they lost a nail-biter to Carmel one of those years.

Then the wheels came off immediately thereafter and it was back to mediocrity.  BUT there was a brief time when they demonstrated it WAS possible at Tech.

I might not have used the phrase “work harder” that @Grover used but I absolutely agree with his point and what I think his intent was.  Programs can change but it takes buy-in at every level...including and especially at home after school and practice is over.  But “Working Harder” to me isn’t just simply about what kids do in practice - it’s about coaches, administrators, students and parents.

The most difficult part in most any task is just getting started the right way with appropriate forethought, planning and tools followed by actual effort.  Once started,  the inertia then moves in the direction of success rather than the reverse. 

Not to continue to beat this drum but Publics like Center Grove and New Pal have shown the path.   I won’t disagree that the socioeconomics make it a different (and more difficult) animal at Tech but they were on a successful path just a handful of years ago but it wasn’t sustained.

 
 

 

Understatement of the thread. 

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26 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Tech actually WAS building something in the mid-2010s.  Anyone who watched their 2012 and 2013 teams would have recognized those teams as formidable despite their roughly .500 record (which was more than respectable given their schedule those 2 years).   As I recall, they lost a nail-biter to Carmel one of those years.

Then the wheels came off immediately thereafter and it was back to mediocrity.  BUT there was a brief time when they demonstrated it WAS possible at Tech.

I might not have used the phrase “work harder” that @Grover used but I absolutely agree with his point and what I think his intent was.  Programs can change but it takes buy-in at every level...including and especially at home after school and practice is over.  But “Working Harder” to me isn’t just simply about what kids do in practice - it’s about coaches, administrators, students and parents.

The most difficult part in most any task is just getting started the right way with appropriate forethought, planning and tools followed by actual effort.  Once started,  the inertia then moves in the direction of success rather than the reverse. 

Not to continue to beat this drum but Publics like Center Grove and New Pal have shown the path.   I won’t disagree that the socioeconomics make it a different (and more difficult) animal at Tech but they were on a successful path just a handful of years ago but it wasn’t sustained.

 
 

 

Great post.  How can something be sustained when you are hiring a new coach every 2-3 years?

TEN coaches in TWENTY years!!!

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33 minutes ago, temptation said:

Great post.  How can something be sustained when you are hiring a new coach every 2-3 years?

TEN coaches in TWENTY years!!!

Coaching stability cannot be understated as a key factor in all sports at all levels. 

Look at PU and IU in basektball. 

Look at Hobart after Howel.

Look at Franklin Central after Stephens.

There are too many other examples to list.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, fenderbender said:

Coaching stability cannot be understated as a key factor in all sports at all levels. 

Look at PU and IU in basektball. 

Look at Hobart after Howel.

Look at Franklin Central after Stephens.

There are too many other examples to list.

 

 

At the collegiate/professional level I firmly believe the leash is too short.

While that combined with unrealistic expectations are often problems at the prep level, I think this honestly ties into another thread that I saw on here over the last few weeks about coaching shortages.  Its hard to find folks (inside or outside of the building) that are willing to grind for such little compensation.  Many are lay coaches that have other careers and some simply take programs as far as they can and use them as stepping stone jobs for other positions.

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Disclaimer: I can count on one hand the number of times I travel to Indianapolis in one year.  So this question is from unfamiliarity and not a loaded one.

What's the difference between Warren Central and Tech?  Is it because one is a township school and the other is part of IPS?  Is it an inside vs outside 465 issue?

I agree socioeconomics play a big part in all extra-curriculars, including football.  The latest stats I pulled on Inview show 69% of Tech students and 61% of Warren students are economically disadvantaged. That 8% alone doesn't seem to explain the difference between the schools which are less than 10 miles apart. 

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2 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Disclaimer: I can count on one hand the number of times I travel to Indianapolis in one year.  So this question is from unfamiliarity and not a loaded one.

What's the difference between Warren Central and Tech?  Is it because one is a township school and the other is part of IPS?  Is it an inside vs outside 465 issue?

I agree socioeconomics play a big part in all extra-curriculars, including football.  The latest stats I pulled on Inview show 69% of Tech students and 61% of Warren students are economically disadvantaged. That 8% alone doesn't seem to explain the difference between the schools which are less than 10 miles apart. 

Yes, Tech is an IPS and that is part of it..   I am a transplanted SIAC guys, so I have picked this info up in the last 25 years I have been living here.  IPS has been bleeding kids to the Township schools (TS) for decades and has been shrinking.   Several (2-5?) high schools have closed in IPS since I have been in Indy.   More opportunity at the TS Schools?  Seems like people are voting with their feet.  (By using them and leaving IPS).   

Not claiming to be an expert.

 

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1 hour ago, fenderbender said:

Yes, Tech is an IPS and that is part of it..   I am a transplanted SIAC guys, so I have picked this info up in the last 25 years I have been living here.  IPS has been bleeding kids to the Township schools (TS) for decades and has been shrinking.   Several (2-5?) high schools have closed in IPS since I have been in Indy.   More opportunity at the TS Schools?  Seems like people are voting with their feet.  (By using them and leaving IPS).   

Not claiming to be an expert.

 

Dr Eugene White, Superintendent of IPS during the 2005-2010 period, had visions of bringing the Tech athletic program into The MIC.  On paper, it made sense.  Tech basically was the last IPS school standing.  Northwest, Broad Ripple and Arlington were closing.  Manual and Howe were being run by a state charter association.  Attucks, Washington and Shortridge were small schools playing in the lower classes.   The Tech campus was situated downtown and had excellent facilties.  With close to 3000 students, White saw an athletic superpoower in the making that could compete with Ben Davis, Carmel and Warren Central.  

Its a shame it didnt come to fruition.  Tech had built some momentum but it evaporated upon Whites departure.  Tech competes now in the North Central Conference, which no sense geographically as the school travels to Lafayette, Muncie, Marion, Richmond, Anderson , Kokomo and Logansport for conference games.  Tech is 17-42 since joining the NCC in 2015.  

Could it happen again?  Possibly.  It would take a huge committment from IPS to attract the right kind of coach who would be committed to coming in and building a program for the long term.  Would a successful township coach or a winning PP coach consider taking on the challenge?  

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12 hours ago, DT said:

The number of "Mega schools" in the state has changed in the years since the inception of 6A.

There were only 5 schools over 3000 in enrollment 10 to 15 years ago.  Today there are 11 and several just on the cusp of eclipsing 3000.  The increase in 3000 plus enrollment schools has actually flattened the curve between the highest and lowest 6A enrollments.  The reduction to 24 will take the next step in creating better parity within the class.  It will never be perfect, but it is incumbent upon the IHSAA to keep pushing towards greater balance when the opportunity arises.

 

"Mega Schools - 3000 plus enrollment

1112 Carmel High School 1359 1338 1267 1322 5286 2221 Ben Davis High School 1263 1075 1100 1061 4499 3433 Warren Central High School 961 962 960 938 3821 4344 North Central (Indpls.) High School 973 939 872 943 3727 5 7 9 14 Fishers High School 950 887 862 810 3509 6555 Penn High School 840 856 782 860 3338 7866 Lake Central High School 827 850 795 844 3316 8677 Pike High School 909 825 792 769 3295 9988 Hamilton Southeastern HS 827 803 840 803 3273 10 10 10 12 Avon High School 838 770 724 763 3095 11 11 11 10 Noblesville High School 805 744 750 702 3001

 

Soon to be "Mega" schools :

12 12 12 11 Crown Point High School 735 704 697 719 2855 13 14 16 18 Brownsburg High School 726 676 693 715 2810 14 13 13 13 Franklin Central High School 759 719 700 626 2804

All but three are in the Indy area. Maybe just set up "Indy class" so other larger schools can get a real trophy vs a participation trophy. 

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6 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

I have a friend who is a SPED teacher in IPS, and she has stayed there for a few years now; but what is the overall working climate in IPS?

Eh, the climate is pretty difficult from an athletics/academic standpoint.  I am sure that Covid hasn't helped.  Teaching impoverished youths in the city is another example of God's work.  For many families, athletics is the farthest thing from their minds.

Yet another reason why the "just work harder" mantra is pretty damn short sighted.

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16 hours ago, DT said:

Tech competes now in the North Central Conference, which no sense geographically as the school travels to Lafayette, Muncie, Marion, Richmond, Anderson , Kokomo and Logansport for conference games.  Tech is 17-42 since joining the NCC in 2015.  

 

FYI Arsenal Tech was a charter member of the North Central Conference when it first formed in 1926.

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