Breaking News: Warsaw and Warren Central sign a 2-year deal to play home and home in 2024 and 2025

[Footballking16]

16 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I would phrase it slightly differently, by saying that enrollment, socioeconomic status, coaching, and other factors can confer a significant advantage on those programs able and willing to utilize them. Not everyone is.

At what point does the number of students become redundant in terms of fielding a competitive football team in your opinion? 1000, 2000, 2500, 3000? Once you cross a certain threshold of students, I believe the enrollment figure becomes irrelevant. Carmel isn't better than Noblesville because they have 5400 students and Noblesville only has 3100 students. Hell Columbus East is better than Noblesville and they only have 1500 students. At that point it has everything to do, how you said, with utilizing your resources. Does Noblesville have a good feeder program? Does Noblesville have an A+ coaching staff? Is the school corporation committed to winning? Is there a big community support/follow? It's the latter sentiments that form the DNA of a successful football program. Once you hit X amount of students it really doesn't matter. 

[BTF]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

What advantage is it to North Central, Fishers, HSE, Pike, Lake Central, Noblesville i.e six of the ten largest high schools in the state? Fishers, HSE, and Noblesville are the three largest schools in the HCC and arguably the three worst football schools in the conference. I want to know where this higher enrollment advantage comes into play? Or is it the socioeconomic factor? You tell me. 

Fishers, Hamilton Southeastern, and Noblesville are relatively new to the 'Largest Schools in the State' club. Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central, and Penn won all of their state championships when they were among the top five enrollments in the state. That's 27 state championships with Top 5 enrollments compared to 9 championships outside the Top 5. That's not enough evidence, outside of common sense alone, to persuade you? 

You are a football coach. You look to your right and see a group of 500 boys. You look to your left and see a group of 250. Which group are you going to choose? 

[DanteEstonia]

2 hours ago, BTF said:

Good coaches typically improve there programs every year it seems for their first 5 or 6 seasons, then there is a trail off.

Can you provide some examples?

[BTF]

12 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

At what point does the number of students become redundant in terms of fielding a competitive football team in your opinion? 1000, 2000, 2500, 3000? Once you cross a certain threshold of students, I believe the enrollment figure becomes irrelevant. Carmel isn't better than Noblesville because they have 5400 students and Noblesville only has 3100 students. Hell Columbus East is better than Noblesville and they only have 1500 students. At that point it has everything to do, how you said, with utilizing your resources. Does Noblesville have a good feeder program? Does Noblesville have an A+ coaching staff? Is the school corporation committed to winning? Is there a big community support/follow? It's the latter sentiments that form the DNA of a successful football program. Once you hit X amount of students it really doesn't matter. 

Are you more likely to find a Big Ten caliber quarterback at Carmel or at Noblesville? Now remember, you have about 1150 more boys at Carmel to pick from. 

[BTF]

1 minute ago, DanteEstonia said:

Can you provide some examples?

That could take some time. I'm just going off of memory. I'll pass on that. 

[Footballking16]

13 minutes ago, BTF said:

Are you more likely to find a Big Ten caliber quarterback at Carmel or at Noblesville? Now remember, you have about 1150 more boys at Carmel to pick from. 

Who is the last D1 caliber QB to come from Carmel High School? 

[BTF]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

Who is the last D1 caliber QB to come from Carmel High School? 

Are you more likely to find a Big Ten caliber QB from a random school of 5400 or one from a school of 3100?

[Footballking16]

21 minutes ago, BTF said:

Fishers, Hamilton Southeastern, and Noblesville are relatively new to the 'Largest Schools in the State' club.

That is simply not true. HSE (as one high school) was a mega enrollement school and Noblesville for the last 15 years has always been one of the largest HCC schools. It certainly was bigger than Avon, Brownsburg, Westfield, Zionsville, and the Lafayette Schools when they were members. 

13 minutes ago, BTF said:

Are you more likely to find a Big Ten caliber QB from a random school of 5400 or one from a school of 3100?

That's an arbitrary and really an irrelevant statement. Can a school with 3000+ kids not produce a D1 caliber QB? Why hasn't Carmel and their 5400 kids not produced a D1 QB since Morgan Newton?

[BTF]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

That is simply not true. HSE (as one high school) was a mega enrollement school and Noblesville for the last 15 years has always been one of the largest HCC schools. It certainly was bigger than Avon, Brownsburg, Westfield, Zionsville, and the Lafayette Schools when they were members. 

But how long have they been Top 5 in the state?

[temptation]

A dude from Cathedral downplaying enrollment and SES is the ultimate "out of sight, out of mind" type of nonsense.

SES and enrollment are the top two factors in a coaching staff's ABILITY to build the culture you speak of.

(By the way, the answer to your statement about Carmel is Morgan Newton who went to Kentucky...now do Noblesville.)

[Footballking16]

13 minutes ago, BTF said:

But how long have they been Top 5 in the state?

They were 3-8 last year with a Top 5 enrollment. Is it now suddenly going to change? 

[Footballking16]

13 minutes ago, temptation said:

SES and enrollment are the top two factors in a coaching staff's ABILITY to build the culture you speak of.

 

Now explain Noblesville. 

[BTF]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

They were 3-8 last year with a Top 5 enrollment. Is it now suddenly going to change? 

It's just a matter of time. You can bank on it. 

[Footballking16]

13 minutes ago, BTF said:

It's just a matter of time. You can bank on it. 

You act like Fishers has grown by 1500 students in the last 5 years. They haven't. They've always been one of the larger biggest class schools even since their split. Fishers isn't magically going to become a better football school because they add a couple hundred more students a year. Noblesville has been growing every year and doesn't have a winning season since 2001.

[BTF]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

You act like Fishers has grown by 1500 students in the last 5 years. They haven't. They've always been one of the larger biggest class schools even since their split. Fishers isn't magically going to become a better football school because they add a couple hundred more students a year. Noblesville has been growing every year and doesn't have a winning season since 2001.

Maybe I'm wrong, but..................Carmel, BD, WC, and Penn won their state championships when they were part of the Top 5 club (fact check me on it, I don't have time). 

[Footballking16]

18 minutes ago, BTF said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but..................Carmel, BD, WC, and Penn won their state championships when they were part of the Top 5 club (fact check me on it, I don't have time). 

What top 5 club was Center Grove in for any of their state championships?

[temptation]

38 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Now explain Noblesville. 

I already mentioned that Noblesville has little excuses, as they have both the enrollment and SES to compete at a high level...therefore it falls at the feet of the coaching staff and the lack of a commitment (@DT's words) by the athletic department TO football.

[Irishman]

There are a variety of reasons programs win; many of which have been covered here. While some have advantages of school size and socio economic factors, the one thing I have not seen mentioned recently (and NO, I am not going back to read this entire exchange) is the Jimmys and the Joes. Bring up the Center Grove title teams, and the simple fact is they had the dudes on the field to get it done. As far as enrollments go, there is no question that if you have 4,000 to 5,000 kids you have an advantage over a number of other programs; you got some dudes walking the halls. Again, that does not apply to EVERY school that size. there are too many other factors. I see North Central come up often. Too many dudes in recent years thought they were just one sport athletes, and had a coach in another sport that pushed that message. LN was in the same boat for a long time. Regardless of the overall size of any given school, many have the noncontributing population. While some buildings have a high special needs population, other schools have what I call dead weight (they have been my counter to the complaints about the success factor being based on what kids have done that are not a part of the program) that contribute nothing to the school. They are not even there to get an education, but their parents, guardian, or even their PO make them go. The real numbers; and this does go to good coaching as well, are in who comes out. CG may be smaller over all, but their program has similar numbers as the bigger schools on their roster. 
As I said earlier though; often times it is far more about the Jimmys and Joes than ANYTHING else. 

[Footballking16]

19 minutes ago, temptation said:

I already mentioned that Noblesville has little excuses, as they have both the enrollment and SES to compete at a high level...therefore it falls at the feet of the coaching staff and the lack of a commitment (@DT's words) by the athletic department TO football.

LOL.

How much did it pain you to say commitment/culture plays a much bigger factor than what you are giving credit? How can Lake Central field a non-competitive football team but has a championship caliber baseball program? 

[BDGiant93]

🍿This popcorn is good.

[temptation]

32 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

LOL.

How much did it pain you to say commitment/culture plays a much bigger factor than what you are giving credit? How can Lake Central field a non-competitive football team but has a championship caliber baseball program? 

You're lost dude.  Never said commitment/culture WASN'T a factor but it is a DISTANT third to the two metrics I mentioned and the latter (culture) is impossible to build over the long haul without the two metrics I've repeatedly cited.

Once again, as a CATHEDRAL poster you just need to sit this one out dude.  You've embarrassed yourself enough here.

[Footballking16]

16 minutes ago, temptation said:

You're lost dude.  Never said commitment/culture WASN'T a factor but it is a DISTANT third to the two metrics I mentioned and the latter (culture) is impossible to build over the long haul without the two metrics I've repeatedly cited.

Once again, as a CATHEDRAL poster you just need to sit this one out dude.  You've embarrassed yourself enough here.

North Central

Pike

Lake Central

Noblesville

HSE

Fishers

All schools with either mega-enrollments or high socioeconomic demographics and in some cases both. All have average to terrible football programs despite possessing the two metrics you deem impossible to overcome. You're talking in circles and looking more and more ridiculous with each passing post.

What is the difference between Pike and Warren Cenntral. And don't you dare tell me 200 students. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Footballking16

[MICFan34]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

What is the difference between Pike and Warren Central. And don't you dare tell me 200 students. 

Could it be something intangible, like tradition? Except for a few years under Moyers, Pike has very little to no tradition, while WC is arguably one of the most tradition-rich programs in the Midwest. 

[Footballking16]

17 minutes ago, MICFan34 said:

Could it be something intangible, like tradition? Except for a few years under Moyers, Pike has very little to no tradition, while WC is arguably one of the most tradition-rich programs in the Midwest. 

Tradition I would lump into culture, but I have maintained the three most important aspects to sustaining a successful program is coaching, culture, and commitment. Warren Central has all three of those factors, cannot say the same for Pike even though they share similar enrollments and socioeconomic demographics.  

[temptation]

12 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

North Central

Pike

Lake Central

Noblesville

HSE

Fishers

All schools with either mega-enrollments or high socioeconomic demographics and in some cases both. All have average to terrible football programs despite possessing the two metrics you deem impossible to overcome. You're talking in circles and looking more and more ridiculous with each passing post.

What is the difference between Pike and Warren Cenntral. And don't you dare tell me 200 students. 

You do realize that four of the teams listed above are probably still top 20-25 programs in the state, correct?  North Central, Pike, HSE and Fishers play BRUTAL schedules and their final W-L record makes them appear worse than they are.

I've already stated that there is no excuse for Noblesville and Lake Central and those programs' lack of success falls at the feet of the coaching staff/athletic department.

As for your last question, there is no doubt that the commitment at Warren is higher than it is at Pike, but I will also add in that the westside suburban sprawl from Marion County to Zionsville, Brownsburg and Avon is playing a larger role at Ben Davis and Pike than it is at Warren Central as it would relate to New Pal/Greenfield.  The east side may eventually catch up but right now, the western suburbs are booming and players who would normally be at Pike/Ben Davis are popping up in Hendricks/Boone County.