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Duneland Should Consider Expansion to 12 Schools in Quest for Football Excellence


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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Penn plays one 3A opponent and that one 3A opponent finished higher rated in Sagarin than any team Penn would stand to play in your new proposed alignment, with the exception of Valpo and Elkhart who they play annually anyway.

Penn in their current conference playing:

St. X

Cathedral

Valpo

Elkhart

Mishawaka

Marian

Is a tougher schedule than Penn stands to play in any year under your DAC proposal without question. No contest.

 

 

 

How long are the Cathedral and St X contracts?

Mishawaka is no longer a conference opponent

I. Believe Marian has one all time win over Penn 

You are taking a rather myopic view of the situation

Look more at the long term, including ease of scheduling

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While I don't know the DAC scheduling practices....A lot of schools/conferences play their JV and/or Freshman games on Saturdays.  What happens to them?  The goal of high school football scheduli

In the DAC's current state? Why would they? Because at 12 members, its not feasibly possible for each school to play each other annually. And with too many dead weight programs currently in the

My gold standards are '06 Warren Central and '91 Ben Davis. Those two teams were exceptional. I don't know if we've seen the likes of them since or will see them again.

Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, DT said:

How long are the Cathedral and St X contracts?

Mishawaka is no longer a conference opponent

I. Believe Marian has one all time win over Penn 

You are taking a rather myopic view of the situation

Look more at the long term, including ease of scheduling

I don’t know how long the contracts with St. X and Cathedral are scheduled, but Penn would have no problem replacing them with likewise programs when they end, something that would no longer be an option if they joined the DAC.

Same with Mishawaka and their rival status.

I don’t think you realize how bad the DAC is once you get past Merrillville, Michigan City on occasion, and Valpo who they play every year anyway. Penn doesn’t need the DAC and play a tougher schedule under their current alignment now that they would ever stand to play under your DAC proposal. 
 

You let me know when scheduling becomes a problem for Penn, because it’s never been a problem before.

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I don’t know how long the contracts with St. X and Cathedral are scheduled, but Penn would have no problem replacing them with likewise programs when they end, something that would no longer be an option if they joined the DAC.

Same with Mishawaka and their rival status.

I don’t think you realize how bad the DAC is once you get past Merrillville, Michigan City on occasion, and Valpo who they play every year anyway. Penn doesn’t need the DAC and play a tougher schedule under their current alignment now that they would ever stand to play under your DAC proposal. 
 

You let me know when scheduling becomes a problem for Penn, because it’s never been a problem before.

Penn football has become uncompetitive with thew central Indiana powers

They play a front loaded schedule and lose their momentum in thew back half due to poor quality conference opponents

This thread is not about Penn. It's about lifting the competitive profile of The Dac.  You a3e correct in your assertion regarding DAC weakness.  It will take more than fixing Penn's schedule to improve the conferences post season prospects

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Just now, DT said:

Penn football has become uncompetitive with thew central Indiana powers

They play a front loaded schedule and lose their momentum in thew back half due to poor quality conference opponents

This thread is not about Penn. It's about lifting the competitive profile of The Dac.  You a3e correct in your assertion regarding DAC weakness.  It will take more than fixing Penn's schedule to improve the conferences post season prospects

You’re trying to convince people why Penn should move to the DAC. Penn already plays the best team in the DAC ever year anyway, and they play 5 other opponents who are just as good, if not better than any other team in the DAC. That’s 2/3rds of their schedule. What advantageous gain does Penn have moving to the DAC? None. Sure Penn and Elkhart moving to the DAC improves the DAC, but it does nothing for Penn and Elkhart.

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5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You’re trying to convince people why Penn should move to the DAC. Penn already plays the best team in the DAC ever year anyway, and they play 5 other opponents who are just as good, if not better than any other team in the DAC. That’s 2/3rds of their schedule. What advantageous gain does Penn have moving to the DAC? None. Sure Penn and Elkhart moving to the DAC improves the DAC, but it does nothing for Penn and Elkhart.

We understand your point.  The objective here is to bring a 6A state title to Northern Indiana.  That includes The Region, South Bend and Fort Wayne.  Any recommendations we make are made towards achieving that goal

 

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1 minute ago, DT said:

We understand your point.  The objective here is to bring a 6A state title to Northern Indiana.  That includes The Region, South Bend and Fort Wayne.  Any recommendations we make are made towards achieving that goal

 

Conference contraction is the only way that is going to happen. Too many 6A teams landlocked in dead weight conferences with little flexibility and in some cases no flexibility (SAC) in scheduling premier programs from the Midwest.

It would make sense for the Big 4 SAC schools opting out (Dwenger, Snider, Homestead, Carroll) and joining up with Elkhart/Penn or a combination of Merrillville, Valpo, Michigan City joining up with Elkhart/Penn. A team 12 super conference of not so super teams doesn’t help anything. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Without question a massive demotion and a huge disservice to a team trying to win 6A. Giving up Cathedral, St. X, Mishawaka, and Marian to play Lake Central, Chesterton, La Porte doesn’t make any sense.

You're entitled to your opinion

We have 10 public schools in the far north that should be in the 5a-6a past season conversation ;

MV

VA

CP

MC

Penn

ELK

Homestead

Carroll

Warsaw

Snider

It's about all of them, not just Penn.  What might be good for Penn may not be advantageous for the others

Remember the primary goal

The more schools we have in the chase, the better our chances

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, DT said:

You're entitled to your opinion

We have 10 schools in the far north that should be in the 5a-6a past season conversation ;

MV

VA

CP

MC

Penn

ELK

Homestead

Carroll

Warsaw

Snider

It's about all of them, not just Penn.  What might be good for Penn may not be advantageous for the others

Remember the primary goal

The more schools we have in the chase, the better our chances

 

 

 

Realistically you have 4, maybe 5 on a semi-regular basis: Merrillville, Snider, Valpo, Penn, and Homestead, and you didn’t include Dwenger who is 5A due to the SF. Elkhart may get to that point but none of the other schools belong in that regular conversation.

What gives those schools a better chance of making a deep post season run? Condensing their schedules and auto-locking them into 8-9 game conference slates or perhaps some flexibility to schedule Indy or out of state powers? You tell me? 

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15 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Realistically you have 4, maybe 5 on a semi-regular basis: Merrillville, Snider, Valpo, Penn, and Homestead, and you didn’t include Dwenger who is 5A due to the SF. Elkhart may get to that point but none of the other schools belong in that regular conversation.

What gives those schools a better chance of making a deep post season run? Condensing their schedules and auto-locking them into 8-9 game conference slates or perhaps some flexibility to schedule Indy or out of state powers? You tell me? 

Public schools only.  Dwenger, Andrean. Luers and Marian don't need our help

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Realistically you have 4, maybe 5 on a semi-regular basis: Merrillville, Snider, Valpo, Penn, and Homestead, and you didn’t include Dwenger who is 5A due to the SF. Elkhart may get to that point but none of the other schools belong in that regular conversation.

What gives those schools a better chance of making a deep post season run? Condensing their schedules and auto-locking them into 8-9 game conference slates or perhaps some flexibility to schedule Indy or out of state powers? You tell me? 

Elkhart is rising.  Lots of talent.  They arew on par with Penn and will likely pass the kingsmen over the next few years

Crown Point is all in with their new staff 

Morton could be very dangerous post consolidation

Chesterton is closing in on Valpo

Remember LaPorte?

 

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2 minutes ago, DT said:

Elkhart is rising.  Lots of talent.  They arew on par with Penn and will likely pass the kingsmen over the next few years

Crown Point is all in with their new staff 

Morton could be very dangerous post consolidation

Chesterton is closing in on Valpo

Remember LaPorte?

 

I said there was hope for Elkhart.

Crown Point and Morton need to accomplish something before before joining the discussion. They aren’t in it right now.

Didn’t Chesterton just lose to a 1A school?

La Porte has a decent football program, but not one that’s in perennial title discussion.

Valpo, Merrillville, Snider, Penn, and Homestead are the teams that belong in perennial title discussion and there’s a pretty significant gap between them and the Indy schools. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I said there was hope for Elkhart.

Crown Point and Morton need to accomplish something before before joining the discussion. They aren’t in it right now.

Didn’t Chesterton just lose to a 1A school?

La Porte has a decent football program, but not one that’s in perennial title discussion.

Valpo, Merrillville, Snider, Penn, and Homestead are the teams that belong in perennial title discussion and there’s a pretty significant gap between them and the Indy schools. 

 

Points noted.  Thanks for your input

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12 hours ago, DT said:

Nuetral Site Matchups

Saturdays would be used intermittently during the season to hold Nuetral site games at Ames Field In Michigan City

Penn vs LC and Elkhart vs Crown Point would be the opening doubleheader

 

As a Coach.....hard pass on Saturday double headers during the regular season.  

Nothing would be worse than playing the late game and then having to turn around and prepare for next weeks opponent.

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10 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Didn’t Chesterton just lose to a 1A school?

Imagine this being your arguement against Chesterton 😂 God forbid any team 2A-6A lose to arguably the best pound for pound program in the entire STATE.

That "1A" school being Pioneer, a program that has gone 220-20 over the last 20 years with 2 State Championships, 4 Semi-State Championships, 7 Regional Championships, and 11 Sectional Championships during those 20 years.

Yeah... to hell with Chesterton! There's no chance for them to become a legitimate threat in 6A North 😂😂😂

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14 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

Imagine this being your arguement against Chesterton 😂 God forbid any team 2A-6A lose to arguably the best pound for pound program in the entire STATE.

That "1A" school being Pioneer, a program that has gone 220-20 over the last 20 years with 2 State Championships, 4 Semi-State Championships, 7 Regional Championships, and 11 Sectional Championships during those 20 years.

Yeah... to hell with Chesterton! There's no chance for them to become a legitimate threat in 6A North 😂😂😂

That was no slight at Pioneer. But if you want to be in the conversation as a serious contender for a 6A title as DT put it, you need to beat schools with 250 students. Period. 

Chesterton hasn't won a sectional in 25+ years. They don't belong in the conversation as a legitimate threat in the North. Sorry. 

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11 hours ago, DT said:

Public schools only.  Dwenger, Andrean. Luers and Marian don't need our help

If the idea is about being competitive and getting better, pretty much really shouldn't matter whether there's a P or P/P behind the school name. 

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11 minutes ago, US31 said:

As a Coach.....hard pass on Saturday double headers during the regular season.  

Nothing would be worse than playing the late game and then having to turn around and prepare for next weeks opponent.

Really?

This isnt the NFL.  If playing one Saturday during the regular season destroys your game prep for the following week, perhaps you are in over your head already

Give me a break

5 minutes ago, RegionFBFan said:

Great topic by DT. It's been a great read following DT and Footballking16 and their respective opinions. Sorry DT, Footballing16 wins this debate.

Interesting how Catholic school supporters and alumni seem to have all the answers to public school challenges.  

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2 minutes ago, foxbat said:

If the idea is about being competitive and getting better, pretty much really shouldn't matter whether there's a P or P/P behind the school name. 

As I mentioned previously, PPs dont need any more help.  The system already is heavily tilted in their favor.  My focus is on the public schools.  You are welcome to focus on whatever and whomever you choose.  Start another thread if you feel its necesary and the PPs  might need your assistance.

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14 minutes ago, DT said:

As I mentioned previously, PPs dont need any more help.  The system already is heavily tilted in their favor.  My focus is on the public schools.  You are welcome to focus on whatever and whomever you choose.  Start another thread if you feel its necesary and the PPs  might need your assistance.

You still haven't answered how condensing schedules and subsequently limiting scheduling opportunities better prepares 5A and 6A Northern teams in a state title pursuit? Merrillville, Valpo, Penn, etc are better off playing powerhouse Chicago schools/Indy powers than they are fellow DAC opponents. Cathedral, Naperville Central, Homewood-Flossmoor are much more similar to the Carmel's, Warren's, Center Grove's of the world than they are Chesterton, Portage, La Porte. 

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3 minutes ago, DT said:

Really?

This isnt the NFL.  If playing one Saturday during the regular season destroys your game prep for the following week, perhaps you are in over your head already

Give me a break

Interesting how Catholic school supporters and alumni seem to have all the answers to public school challenges.  

What strikes em as odd as how quickly you write off P/P inputs as monolithic and somehow not able to "understand" public school challenges.  I went to Catholic school as a kid ... then attended public school from junior high through high school in Texas which knows a bit about football.  The school that I attended currently eclipses most of the schools in Indiana at around 3,200 - 3,300 students.  My kids have been in Catholic school and public schools.  The kids that I've coached have gone on to play at Catholic schools and also at many of the public schools in the area including McCutcheon, Harrison, Jeff, West Lafayette, Frontier, and Benton Central.  As an educator and a citizen and a father with kids at two different public schools in the area, I'm quite attune to public school challenges.  If we are discussing issues, then let's discuss the issues.

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7 minutes ago, DT said:

As I mentioned previously, PPs dont need any more help.  The system already is heavily tilted in their favor.  My focus is on the public schools.  You are welcome to focus on whatever and whomever you choose.  Start another thread if you feel its necesary and the PPs  might need your assistance.

Earlier in the thread when someone pointed out that adding Penn to your new system doesn't help Penn, you basically said that it wasn't really about helping Penn, but about helping your new conference.  Similarly, adding P/P wouldn't be about helping the P/P, it would be about adding to the competition.  I'm just in line with what you were saying earlier.  Of course, if you don't want to talk about competition ...

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4 minutes ago, foxbat said:

What strikes em as odd as how quickly you write off P/P inputs as monolithic and somehow not able to "understand" public school challenges.  I went to Catholic school as a kid ... then attended public school from junior high through high school in Texas which knows a bit about football.  The school that I attended currently eclipses most of the schools in Indiana at around 3,200 - 3,300 students.  My kids have been in Catholic school and public schools.  The kids that I've coached have gone on to play at Catholic schools and also at many of the public schools in the area including McCutcheon, Harrison, Jeff, West Lafayette, Frontier, and Benton Central.  As an educator and a citizen and a father with kids at two different public schools in the area, I'm quite attune to public school challenges.  If we are discussing issues, then let's discuss the issues.

I have no problem with your input.  I spent quite a bit of time debating FB16 on the topic.  What I have a problem with is the arrogant and condescending know it all tone of many PP contributors who want to chime in on public school focused topics.  Please continue to contribute if you choose to do so.

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13 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Earlier in the thread when someone pointed out that adding Penn to your new system doesn't help Penn, you basically said that it wasn't really about helping Penn, but about helping your new conference.  Similarly, adding P/P wouldn't be about helping the P/P, it would be about adding to the competition.  I'm just in line with what you were saying earlier.  Of course, if you don't want to talk about competition ...

And it turns out that it is really about helping Penn (along with the rest of the 5A and 6A Northern Schools) in a quest for a state title. If we're talking about re-aligning conferences to the point it prepares them accordingly for a title run, conference expansion under this proposal makes very little sense.

Take Merrillville, Valpo, Crown Point, and Michigan City, form a new six team new conference with Penn and Elkhart where you're playing five quality conference opponents in succession and it leaves you 4 open weeks. There's an open week or two to still schedule former DAC rivalries and then two to three open weeks to schedule regional powers from the Indy/Chicago/NW OH/Cincy area. 

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