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Indiana…..A football state for real this time


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15 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Well prepared to be dazzled. Exactly 10 years ago, calendar year 2011-2012, Indianapolis schools won, get this, 5 state titles.

Cathedral-Football

Chatard-Football

Lawrence Central-Men's Track and Field

North Central-Women's basketball

Pike-Women's Track and Field

It's a misleading stat, clearly.

3 public schools there chief.  The six state titles in 2020-21 is only part of the story.  
 

The fact that ALL SIX were non-public schools is staggering.

#culture

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You can coach the snot out of a 6'0" lineman and the Power 5s won't have any interest.  Many on the Top 250 list have been well coached but most won the DNA lottery.

And little ole Pioneer High School just won their 3rd state title in lady's sports for 2020-21 (volleyball, basketball, softball). Way to go Pioneer. Sorry, just had to congratulate this awe

Might as well rank Indiana 6th. Per capita, Indiana obliterates California. If we had California's population, we'd have 47 kids in the Top 250 compared to the Sunshine state's 13. 

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17 minutes ago, temptation said:

3 public schools there chief.  The six state titles in 2020-21 is only part of the story.  
 

The fact that ALL SIX were non-public schools is staggering.

#culture

So Pike and Lawrence Central winning a couple of track state titles ten years ago speaks to the utter downfall of the Indianapolis high schools today? You've lost it. 

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2 hours ago, BTF said:

Honestly, with 5000 students, anything less than a state championship in any sport should be considered a disappointment. 

 

Lol, I think you're right. Even with the population difference between the two states, Indiana's 8 doesn't compare to Florida's 33. That's an impressive number. 

We are heading to the The Sunshine State Saturday.  Just wanted to make sure we landed in Florida and NOT California.  🙂

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5 hours ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

When you make a thread to hype up the current senior class and it quickly turns into a socioeconomic debate 😂😂😂

I own so much space in his head.

Such an easy bear to poke.

He honestly still thinks Cathedral’s work ethic, culture and coaching staff is the reason for their success.

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

I own so much space in his head.

Such an easy bear to poke.

He honestly still thinks Cathedral’s work ethic, culture and coaching staff is the reason for their success.

The most affluent school in the state of Indiana also has one of the worst football programs. It’s in jeopardy of contracting. If socioeconomic status dictated high school football results, Park Tudor would have a dozen 1A football titles. They don’t. 

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8 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

The most affluent school in the state of Indiana also has one of the worst football programs. It’s in jeopardy of contracting. If socioeconomic status dictated high school football results, Park Tudor would have a dozen 1A football titles. They don’t. 

Another cherry picked example on your part.  For every Park Tudor, there is a Roncalli, Cathedral and Chatard out there.

Here’s what you still don’t get...

I am not saying that SES is the end all be all in athletics, but it is a MUCH LARGER component than you are giving it credit for.

All of those other things I mentioned (culture, enrollment, coaching, etc) are also factors as it is not black and white.

You just seem to get kind of butt hurt when I insinuate that a large component in Cathedral’s success comes from the fact that they are in an elite category in this regard.

Its gone from cute to a bit sad honestly.

 

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15 minutes ago, temptation said:

Another cherry picked example on your part.  For every Park Tudor, there is a Roncalli, Cathedral and Chatard out there.

Here’s what you still don’t get...

I am not saying that SES is the end all be all in athletics, but it is a MUCH LARGER component than you are giving it credit for.

All of those other things I mentioned (culture, enrollment, coaching, etc) are also factors as it is not black and white.

You just seem to get kind of butt hurt when I insinuate that a large component in Cathedral’s success comes from the fact that they are in an elite category in this regard.

Its gone from cute to a bit sad honestly.

 

It's insulting to attribute Cathedral's success on the gridiron to the household income of the families that send their kids to Cathedral. It's wrong. 

Cathedral isn't good because some of their players parents have money, they're good because they're more talented than the majority of the teams they play stemming from a great coaching staff that instills a winning culture every day.

You can't tell me that the average parent in Center Grove Twp makes more than the average parent in either of the Fishers districts or Noblesville. What separates Center Grove and schools like Noblesville, Fishers, HSE? It sure as hell isn't enrollment. It sure as hell isn't SES factors. I wonder what it is?

There's successful programs littered across the state that come all different dynamics. But there's one or two common themes they all share, and it has nothing to do with SES factors. 

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1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

It's insulting to attribute Cathedral's success on the gridiron to the household income of the families that send their kids to Cathedral. It's wrong. 

Cathedral isn't good because some of their players parents have money, they're good because they're more talented than the majority of the teams they play stemming from a great coaching staff that instills a winning culture every day.

You can't tell me that the average parent in Center Grove Twp makes more than the average parent in either of the Fishers districts or Noblesville. What separates Center Grove and schools like Noblesville, Fishers, HSE? It sure as hell isn't enrollment. It sure as hell isn't SES factors. I wonder what it is?

There's successful programs littered across the state that come all different dynamics. But there's one or two common themes they all share, and it has nothing to do with SES factors. 

EVERYBODY wins at Cathedral.  That’s the common denominator.  Once again, you are taking this as if I’m taking a shot at the coaching staff.  I’m not.

Cathedral is a destination job for coaches.  The culture is already in place (due in part to the factors I mentioned).  It’s nearly impossible not to succeed at Cathedral.

Moore has been at CG for over TWO decades.  Noblesville is a revolving door, HSE has been underwhelming and Fishers made the state title game in its first decade of existence.

Its not all or none dude.  Enrollment, culture, coaching all plays a HUGE factor but it’s much easier when you have wealthy communities/families.

Stop getting your feelings hurt.

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Footballking16, some folks don't get it and it's obvious that they don't want to get it.  I've been on this forum for around 15 years and one thing that never changes is the willingness of some to attack those on top.  

Person #1:  Hey, you guys have one of the best programs in the state.  How do you do it?

Person #2:  Well, we build a culture from kindergarten on up.  We start contact early but we teach it the right way.  The varsity coaching staff is involved in educating and training the youth coaches.  The high school players help train the kids at camp.  We have offseason clinics where we teach kids to become better athletes.  We integrate the varsity's offense and defense into our youth and middle school program.  We have a strength and conditioning coach who completely buys in.  We prepare kids mentally to work hard and sacrifice for the team.  We stress that our kids need to do the right things and help their brothers do the right things.  Hard Work X Dedication = Success

Person #1:  Oh.  So you're rich and you have an enrollment advantage.

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What if both sides are right here?

 

Coming from a home that is more stable financially allowing the kid to spend more time training/playing sports opposed to having to work a job or even simply just being there to watch little siblings while the parents work…..but also having a great program from top to bottom and having a great coaching staff.

 

why is this a yes or no thing? It’s not definitive for either but both certainly play a role

 

anywayyyysssss

 

super excited about this class.  Was just looking and Indiana currently has ten 4 ️ Prospects….oh course as a Gibson Southern fan I’m rooting for a Brady Allen all the way…but I am curious where Joe Strickland lands.  He has been a 4 ️ guy since his freshman year and training with Robert Mathis. Tons of offers and could really go anywhere.  
 

also Omar Cooper….I remember someone last year said he was new but a dark horse to rise up the ranks and now he is sitting 4th in the state 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Grover said:

Footballking16, some folks don't get it and it's obvious that they don't want to get it.  I've been on this forum for around 15 years and one thing that never changes is the willingness of some to attack those on top.  

Person #1:  Hey, you guys have one of the best programs in the state.  How do you do it?

Person #2:  Well, we build a culture from kindergarten on up.  We start contact early but we teach it the right way.  The varsity coaching staff is involved in educating and training the youth coaches.  The high school players help train the kids at camp.  We have offseason clinics where we teach kids to become better athletes.  We integrate the varsity's offense and defense into our youth and middle school program.  We have a strength and conditioning coach who completely buys in.  We prepare kids mentally to work hard and sacrifice for the team.  We stress that our kids need to do the right things and help their brothers do the right things.  Hard Work X Dedication = Success

Person #1:  Oh.  So you're rich and you have an enrollment advantage.

You keep saying "we," but it's really more about Coach Moore than it is anything else. He's arguably the best coach in the state. He could do the same thing at Carroll or Homestead. I would say it's more of a Coach Moore thing than a community thing. It all starts with the coach. It's up to him to get the community invested. When Coach Moore retires, the football program won't be the same. Good maybe, but not the same. 

I have a lot of respect for Cathedral. Catholic kids just seem to play football at a different level for some reason. But a large reason for their success is their open border. I would compare Cathedral to a program like Carmel with an enrollment of 4000-5000. Of course coaching and culture play big factors. But you have to admit that large enrollments and open borders give yourself an advantage over other programs. 

There's no shame in admitting that you have certain advantages. When Coach Wright was at the helm at Warren or when Coach Dullaghan was at the helm at BD, they would be the first to admit that they had an enrollment advantage and access to some pretty darn good athletes. Great coaches, but they still had advantages. 

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23 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

What if both sides are right here?

 

Coming from a home that is more stable financially allowing the kid to spend more time training/playing sports opposed to having to work a job or even simply just being there to watch little siblings while the parents work…..but also having a great program from top to bottom and having a great coaching staff.

 

why is this a yes or no thing? It’s not definitive for either but both certainly play a role

 

anywayyyysssss

 

super excited about this class.  Was just looking and Indiana currently has ten 4 ️ Prospects….oh course as a Gibson Southern fan I’m rooting for a Brady Allen all the way…but I am curious where Joe Strickland lands.  He has been a 4 ️ guy since his freshman year and training with Robert Mathis. Tons of offers and could really go anywhere.  
 

also Omar Cooper….I remember someone last year said he was new but a dark horse to rise up the ranks and now he is sitting 4th in the state 

 

 

I don't think anyone disputes that schools in higher income areas have higher participation rates that in turn leads to success. I don't disagree at all. It's this comment that pisses me off

 

13 hours ago, temptation said:

He honestly still thinks Cathedral’s work ethic, culture and coaching staff is the reason for their success.

It's 90% of their success. Look at a school like Brebuef on the other side of town with with similar enrollment, similar demographics, similar SES, etc. Brebeuf historically is a very average football program. You'd think that a school who shares that same qualities as a school like Cathedral would have similar results. They don't. Not by a mile. 

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14 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

What if both sides are right here?

 

Coming from a home that is more stable financially allowing the kid to spend more time training/playing sports opposed to having to work a job or even simply just being there to watch little siblings while the parents work…..but also having a great program from top to bottom and having a great coaching staff.

 

why is this a yes or no thing? It’s not definitive for either but both certainly play a role

 

anywayyyysssss

 

super excited about this class.  Was just looking and Indiana currently has ten 4 ️ Prospects….oh course as a Gibson Southern fan I’m rooting for a Brady Allen all the way…but I am curious where Joe Strickland lands.  He has been a 4 ️ guy since his freshman year and training with Robert Mathis. Tons of offers and could really go anywhere.  
 

also Omar Cooper….I remember someone last year said he was new but a dark horse to rise up the ranks and now he is sitting 4th in the state 

 

 

You get it.

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

I don't think anyone disputes that schools in higher income areas have higher participation rates that in turn leads to success. I don't disagree at all. It's this comment that pisses me off

 

It's 90% of their success. Look at a school like Brebuef on the other side of town with with similar enrollment, similar demographics, similar SES, etc. Brebeuf historically is a very average football program. You'd think that a school who shares that same qualities as a school like Cathedral would have similar results. They don't. Not by a mile. 

You still don’t.

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15 minutes ago, BTF said:

You keep saying "we," but it's really more about Coach Moore than it is anything else. He's arguably the best coach in the state. He could do the same thing at Carroll or Homestead. I would say it's more of a Coach Moore thing than a community thing. It all starts with the coach. It's up to him to get the community invested. When Coach Moore retires, the football program won't be the same. Good maybe, but not the same. 

I have a lot of respect for Cathedral. Catholic kids just seem to play football at a different level for some reason. But a large reason for their success is their open border. I would compare Cathedral to a program like Carmel with an enrollment of 4000-5000. Of course coaching and culture play big factors. But you have to admit that large enrollments and open borders give yourself an advantage over other programs. 

There's no shame in admitting that you have certain advantages. When Coach Wright was at the helm at Warren or when Coach Dullaghan was at the helm at BD, they would be the first to admit that they had an enrollment advantage and access to some pretty darn good athletes. Great coaches, but they still had advantages. 

Open enrollment in the city of Indianapolis has arguably hurt Cathedral. Before open enrollment, you either attended your local school or ponied up and went to a private school. 

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4 minutes ago, BTF said:

You keep saying "we," but it's really more about Coach Moore than it is anything else. He's arguably the best coach in the state. He could do the same thing at Carroll or Homestead. I would say it's more of a Coach Moore thing than a community thing. It all starts with the coach. It's up to him to get the community invested. When Coach Moore retires, the football program won't be the same. Good maybe, but not the same. 

I have a lot of respect for Cathedral. Catholic kids just seem to play football at a different level for some reason. But a large reason for their success is their open border. I would compare Cathedral to a program like Carmel with an enrollment of 4000-5000. Of course coaching and culture play big factors. But you have to admit that large enrollments and open borders give yourself an advantage over other programs. 

There's no shame in admitting that you have certain advantages. When Coach Wright was at the helm at Warren or when Coach Dullaghan was at the helm at BD, they would be the first to admit that they had an enrollment advantage and access to some pretty darn good athletes. Great coaches, but they still had advantages. 

Honest question:  Could any of the names you mentioned above turn an IPS or Gary school into a state powerhouse today?
 

Why/why not?

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15 minutes ago, temptation said:

You get it.

You still don’t.

There's nothing to get. You have still yet to offer some kind of evidence or proof that SES is the ultimate deciding factor in what programs are and aren't successful. 

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Just now, Footballking16 said:

There's nothing to get. You have still yet to offer some kind of evidence or proof that SES is the ultimate deciding factor in what programs are and aren't successful. 

Once again, I never said “ultimate.”  But it is one hell of a factor and one that you are underestimating/brushing aside.

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14 minutes ago, temptation said:

Honest question:  Could any of the names you mentioned above turn an IPS or Gary school into a state powerhouse today?
 

Why/why not?

Talk about cherry picking? Those are extreme examples. No I don't think Coach Moore would walk into Tech or Gary West and turn them into perennial state title contenders. Don't think anyone has suggested that either. I do have little doubt though that someone like Coach Moore could walk into either of those school corporations, lay a foundation for success, and have either much more successful than they currently are. 

14 minutes ago, temptation said:

Once again, I never said “ultimate.”  But it is one hell of a factor and one that you are underestimating/brushing aside.

It's a small piece of the pie, sure. It's not indicative of a successful program though (see Lake Central, Noblesville, Munster, etc)

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Talk about cherry picking? Those are extreme examples. No I don't think Coach Moore would walk into Tech or Gary West and turn them into perennial state title contenders. Don't think anyone has suggested that either. I do have little doubt though that someone like Coach Moore could walk into either of those school corporations, lay a foundation for success, and have either much more successful than they currently are. 

If SES plays very little or zero role in a program’s success then why couldn’t Wright, Moore or Dullaghan (simply because there were mentioned above) turn them into state contenders?

Say it, you know you want to.

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7 minutes ago, temptation said:

If SES plays very little or zero role in a program’s success then why couldn’t Wright, Moore or Dullaghan (simply because there were mentioned above) turn them into state contenders?

Say it, you know you want to.

Say what?

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Say what?

Why could they only “lay a foundation of success?”

If coaching/culture is everything they should be able to contend for state titles by just dropping in and building their “culture” in any corporation, no?

What’s preventing them from doing so?

You’re getting so close to saying it.  You’ll feel better,  I promise.

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16 minutes ago, temptation said:

Why could they only “lay a foundation of success?”

If coaching/culture is everything they should be able to contend for state titles by just dropping in and building their “culture” in any corporation, no?

What’s preventing them from doing so?

You’re getting so close to saying it.  You’ll feel better,  I promise.

Maybe I'm selling Coach Moore, perhaps he could turn Tech into a perennial state title contender. Hell he did it with Center Grove. 

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Maybe I'm selling Coach Moore, perhaps he could turn Tech into a perennial state title contender. Hell he did it with Center Grove. 

Not a chance (and I am one of Eric’s biggest fans.)

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15 minutes ago, temptation said:

Not a chance (and I am one of Eric’s biggest fans.)

Why not?

I'm sure if 30 years ago you told somebody that Center Grove would one day be the pinnacle football program in the state of Indiana you would have been laughed at. 

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