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Indiana…..A football state for real this time


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7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Why not?

I'm sure if 30 years ago you told somebody that Center Grove would one day be the pinnacle football program in the state of Indiana you would have been laughed at. 

Nah, plenty of room for growth.  Same with Westfield, Avon, Brownsburg, Zionsville and New Pal.  It’s simple demographics man.  Suburban sprawl is normal in every major American city.

Tech is landlocked and is not near the top of 6A in terms of enrollment or socioeconomics.  You can get away with one strike, but not both.

Now, if 3-4 players followed him FROM Center Grove TO Tech?  Sure.

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You can coach the snot out of a 6'0" lineman and the Power 5s won't have any interest.  Many on the Top 250 list have been well coached but most won the DNA lottery.

And little ole Pioneer High School just won their 3rd state title in lady's sports for 2020-21 (volleyball, basketball, softball). Way to go Pioneer. Sorry, just had to congratulate this awe

Might as well rank Indiana 6th. Per capita, Indiana obliterates California. If we had California's population, we'd have 47 kids in the Top 250 compared to the Sunshine state's 13. 

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17 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Maybe I'm selling Coach Moore, perhaps he could turn Tech into a perennial state title contender. Hell he did it with Center Grove. 

Look at the SES of the teams he coached in Port Charlotte, Florida.

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5 minutes ago, Grover said:

Look at the SES of the teams he coached in Port Charlotte, Florida.

Too lazy.  Do it for me.  I assume you already know.

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21 hours ago, temptation said:

I’ll give you CC further proving my point though.

ZERO public schools won state titles in Marion County in 2020-21.  Point still stands.

If you’d have told me that would be the case as recently as TEN years ago, I’d have called you crazy.

Aggressive Covid lockdowns also played a role.  But I’m sure you’ll come back in here and spout some nonsense about “culture.”

Public education is dying a slow death.

Ok, I'll play. How do you figure athletic success or lack of it translates into "Public education is dying a slow death."??

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23 minutes ago, temptation said:

Nah, plenty of room for growth.  Same with Westfield, Avon, Brownsburg, Zionsville and New Pal.  It’s simple demographics man.  Suburban sprawl is normal in every major American city.

Tech is landlocked and is not near the top of 6A in terms of enrollment or socioeconomics.  You can get away with one strike, but not both.

Now, if 3-4 players followed him FROM Center Grove TO Tech?  Sure.

How is that schools like Miami Central and Detroit King have nationally recognized football programs? Why can't Tech, given similar SES factors? 

I agree, IPS has butchered its school system and Tech shouldn't have 2200+ kids in it, but there's no reason to think Tech can't have a successful athletic program given the right enviornemnt. There's little to no culture present at a school like Tech. 

16 minutes ago, temptation said:

Too lazy.  Do it for me.  I assume you already know.

Just like most of your takes....

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1 minute ago, BDGiant93 said:

Ok, I'll play. How do you figure athletic success or lack of it translates into "Public education is dying a slow death."??

Athletics is just one part.  For the sake and purpose of this forum I was focusing on that aspect but the trends cannot be ignored.

Charter schools popping up everywhere, private and parochial schools dominating across the board both in the classroom and on the playing field, even in sports that used to be immune from the effects of SES.

Maybe I should’ve been more specific...

Public schools in Marion county are dying a slow death.

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2 minutes ago, temptation said:

Athletics is just one part.  For the sake and purpose of this forum I was focusing on that aspect but the trends cannot be ignored.

Charter schools popping up everywhere, private and parochial schools dominating across the board both in the classroom and on the playing field, even in sports that used to be immune from the effects of SES.

Maybe I should’ve been more specific...

Public schools in Marion county are dying a slow death.

I can't say that I precisely agree with you, but this does clarify your point. Thank you.

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10 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

How is that schools like Miami Central and Detroit King have nationally recognized football programs? Why can't Tech, given similar SES factors? 

I agree, IPS has butchered its school system and Tech shouldn't have 2200+ kids in it, but there's no reason to think Tech can't have a successful athletic program given the right enviornemnt. There's little to no culture present at a school like Tech. 

Just like most of your takes....

Not going to focus on out of state programs which I know little about.

Lets take Merrillville for example...

Bottom half of 6A in enrollment, over a 60 percent free/reduced lunch rate.

Went ALL IN in 2020 (transfers/culture) and had a great regular season...Best team in decades.

Blown out by Chatard, dominated by Westfield in the semi state.

Show me a program back has a free and reduced rate of over 50% and is in the bottom half of enrollment in 6A (or any class for that matter) that has tasted consistent success recently.

4 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

I can't say that I precisely agree with you, but this does clarify your point. Thank you.

No problem.  I’ve always respected your takes and how you can disagree without resorting to insults.

Look no further than out your window...

BD used to be a destination for suburban kids from Avon and Brownsburg and even IPS kids...now they are losing talent to the suburbs.  It’s completely flipped.

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18 minutes ago, temptation said:

Not going to focus on out of state programs which I know little about.

Lets take Merrillville for example...

Bottom half of 6A in enrollment, over a 60 percent free/reduced lunch rate.

Went ALL IN in 2020 (transfers/culture) and had a great regular season...Best team in decades.

Blown out by Chatard, dominated by Westfield in the semi state.

Show me a program back has a free and reduced rate of over 50% and is in the bottom half of enrollment in 6A that has tasted consistent success recently.

What about schools in the upper half of 6A of enrollment with less than 50% free and reduced lunch? There's plenty.

It works both ways. 

But to answer you question, Lafayette Jeff is the school I'd go with. 

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ol' Temptation and Footballking16, you two have one heckuva conversation going, and I see both sides

I've got 2 examples of culture v.s social economics:

1) Coach Mo, sometime between leaving Carmel and going back to Bloomington South, ended up at Salem. 2, maybe 3 seasons, never had a winning season in Salem. Why? types of kids and true community and corporation buy-in, perhaps?

2) Coach Brian Moore, who had a reputation for building successful programs at Seeger and Fountain Central, became head coach at Lafayette Jeff, around 2015, 2016, somewhere in there. Went from a 1A school to a 5A(at the time) school, took a program from 1 win the previous season to 8 in his one and only season there. Why? Community and School buy in, along with athletes buying in as well.

I get the conference switch at the time is always pointed at as a factor of this success for Coach Moore on here before, but his foundation and implement of culture worked just the same at a big inner city school just like it did at a small rural community school. Coach Mo didn't have the same luck. 

Maybe I'm missing the mark on the social economics point you guys are trying to get each other to admit to. Maybe I'm spot on. Either way, thats my 2 cents...

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9 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

What about schools in the upper half of 6A of enrollment with less than 50% free and reduced lunch? There's plenty.

It works both ways. 

But to answer you question, Lafayette Jeff is the school I'd go with. 

Maybe I’m missing something?  Lafayette Jeff has beaten up on teams in the regular season with smaller enrollment numbers (due to their conference affiliation) and similar SES demographics and been executed at the sectional level in 18 consecutive seasons.

Next...

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21 minutes ago, RedwoodCowTippers said:

ol' Temptation and Footballking16, you two have one heckuva conversation going, and I see both sides

I've got 2 examples of culture v.s social economics:

1) Coach Mo, sometime between leaving Carmel and going back to Bloomington South, ended up at Salem. 2, maybe 3 seasons, never had a winning season in Salem. Why? types of kids and true community and corporation buy-in, perhaps?

2) Coach Brian Moore, who had a reputation for building successful programs at Seeger and Fountain Central, became head coach at Lafayette Jeff, around 2015, 2016, somewhere in there. Went from a 1A school to a 5A(at the time) school, took a program from 1 win the previous season to 8 in his one and only season there. Why? Community and School buy in, along with athletes buying in as well.

I get the conference switch at the time is always pointed at as a factor of this success for Coach Moore on here before, but his foundation and implement of culture worked just the same at a big inner city school just like it did at a small rural community school. Coach Mo didn't have the same luck. 

Maybe I'm missing the mark on the social economics point you guys are trying to get each other to admit to. Maybe I'm spot on. Either way, thats my 2 cents...

I agree with everything you said, and you hit the nail on the head. It's about culture and subsequently getting everyone associated with the program on board. Without that aspect, it doesn't matter how rich or how poor your community is. That is the aspect that Temptation fails to see. There's affluent school corporations that are the best of the best in Indiana and some who aren't competitive. 

Coach O'Shea at North Central is another example btw. 

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6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I agree with everything you said, and you hit the nail on the head. It's about culture and subsequently getting everyone associated with the program on board. Without that aspect, it doesn't matter how rich or how poor your community is. That is the aspect that Temptation fails to see. There's affluent school corporations that are the best of the best in Indiana and some who aren't competitive. 

Coach O'Shea at North Central is another example btw. 

Can you at least admit that it’s easier to get “everyone associated with the program on board” in an affluent community in which most children are raised in two parent households, the community itself lends itself to areas that are available for students to be active and where families are not worried about their next meal/paycheck?

If not, you’d better have one hell of an enrollment advantage (BD/WC).

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2 hours ago, temptation said:

Honest question:  Could any of the names you mentioned above turn an IPS or Gary school into a state powerhouse today?
 

Why/why not?

Coach Haydock made a state champion out of Harding (99.5% free lunch), so I don't see why any of those other coaches couldn't do the same at a Gary school. 

Coach Land took South Side to semi-state about a decade ago and lost to the eventual state champs by 7 points. They posted an 11-3 record that year. Free lunch rate currently is 55%, not sure what it was then. In all fairness, Harding is probably a better example relating to your question. 

Easier at a school sitting in an affluent community? Yes. I think you've made a good point on this forum regarding socioeconomic factors. No one ever discussed it until you brought it to the table. 

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45 minutes ago, BTF said:

Coach Haydock made a state champion out of Harding (99.5% free lunch), so I don't see why any of those other coaches couldn't do the same at a Gary school. 

Coach Land took South Side to semi-state about a decade ago and lost to the eventual state champs by 7 points. They posted an 11-3 record that year. Free lunch rate currently is 55%, not sure what it was then. In all fairness, Harding is probably a better example relating to your question. 

Easier at a school sitting in an affluent community? Yes. I think you've made a good point on this forum regarding socioeconomic factors. No one ever discussed it until you brought it to the table. 

Solid find.  

Harding was around 65 percent free/reduced at the time of that championship.  
 

Not sure where they fell in terms of enrollment at the time.  Had 541 students.

Nonetheless, good work.
 

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14 minutes ago, temptation said:

Solid find.  

Harding was around 65 percent free/reduced at the time of that championship.  
 

Not sure where they fell in terms of enrollment at the time.  Had 541 students.

Nonetheless, good work.
 

The stat I found was for the 13-14' school year. I just figured that number was consistent with other years...........guess not

 

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My kids attend one of the Marion County public schools mentioned in this thread. The school is far from dying a slow death. In fact they are thriving. They don't win championships in many sports because only 1 team out of the 30 or 60+ in each class does that. State championships is a horrible measure of success or failure. I believe this school has won sectional championships in like 10 of the 16 sports in which they compete. That's a very impressive record considering the level of competition they play in those sectionals. All of the district public schools are excelling with students academically and have some of the best and most progressive programs in the state, even better than many wealthy suburban schools. The economic diversity of most of the township schools is amazing and those students are far better prepared to function in a diverse society when they graduate. This isn't a knock against Carmel, CG, and others like them. There isn't much negative you can say about those schools and the students who graduate from them. But to say the county public schools are dying a slow death is a very naive statement.

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3 hours ago, JustRules said:

My kids attend one of the Marion County public schools mentioned in this thread. The school is far from dying a slow death. In fact they are thriving. They don't win championships in many sports because only 1 team out of the 30 or 60+ in each class does that. State championships is a horrible measure of success or failure. I believe this school has won sectional championships in like 10 of the 16 sports in which they compete. That's a very impressive record considering the level of competition they play in those sectionals. All of the district public schools are excelling with students academically and have some of the best and most progressive programs in the state, even better than many wealthy suburban schools. The economic diversity of most of the township schools is amazing and those students are far better prepared to function in a diverse society when they graduate. This isn't a knock against Carmel, CG, and others like them. There isn't much negative you can say about those schools and the students who graduate from them. But to say the county public schools are dying a slow death is a very naive statement.

Washington and Franklin Township are hanging on by a thread if that makes you feel better.

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On 6/17/2021 at 5:34 PM, temptation said:

SES, district mobility, country club sport success, academic rigor.

You realize North Central has one of the best tennis programs in the country and they are always a top contender in their swim sectional? They both do very academically as well. I know several families in both districts and their students are doing very well. The IOA game away 6 scholarships 2 weeks ago and 2 of them went to FC grads. While the township schools have more challenges than the suburban districts like Zionsville and Carmel, they are far from struggling. A couple years ago Lawrence was actually one of the fastest growing districts in the state despite having very little new development. Two reasons were families attending private schools choosing to return to public schools and students in nearby districts attending because of their outstanding programs. If you only look at macro data you don't get an accurate picture of what's happening in a district.

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8 hours ago, JustRules said:

You realize North Central has one of the best tennis programs in the country and they are always a top contender in their swim sectional? They both do very academically as well. I know several families in both districts and their students are doing very well. The IOA game away 6 scholarships 2 weeks ago and 2 of them went to FC grads. While the township schools have more challenges than the suburban districts like Zionsville and Carmel, they are far from struggling. A couple years ago Lawrence was actually one of the fastest growing districts in the state despite having very little new development. Two reasons were families attending private schools choosing to return to public schools and students in nearby districts attending because of their outstanding programs. If you only look at macro data you don't get an accurate picture of what's happening in a district.

I do realize that.  I also realize that apparently I’ve struck a nerve.

In your paragraph, you further illustrated my point.  Franklin and Washington are still tasting minimal success that the remaining 6 township schools simply are not.  Like it or hate it, the state’s grading system has ONE Marion County township school system that earned an A, two earned B’s and the remaining C’s.  The donut county schools dominated once again.

Marion County is a shell of its former self.

As for your Lawrence Township statement, according to the IHSAA data, it appears that Lawrence North’s growth has coincided with Lawrence Central’s enrollment decline.  I’ll give you a quarter of a point on that one.

You are attempting to put lipstick on a pig here which is honorable.

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8 hours ago, temptation said:

I do realize that.  I also realize that apparently I’ve struck a nerve.

In your paragraph, you further illustrated my point.  Franklin and Washington are still tasting minimal success that the remaining 6 township schools simply are not.  Like it or hate it, the state’s grading system has ONE Marion County township school system that earned an A, two earned B’s and the remaining C’s.  The donut county schools dominated once again.

Marion County is a shell of its former self.

As for your Lawrence Township statement, according to the IHSAA data, it appears that Lawrence North’s growth has coincided with Lawrence Central’s enrollment decline.  I’ll give you a quarter of a point on that one.

You are attempting to put lipstick on a pig here which is honorable.

I had a longer response to your comments but it's obvious you aren't in education or understand how or why the grading systems work. A good analogy is you are saying the only people who have success on a football field are those who play on a team that makes it to a regional final. Everyone else is failing and should give up now. That is an absurd statement and anyone who is involved with any level of high school athletics knows is not true.

The grading system benefits schools and systems that already good students from stable backgrounds. The less common that is the harder it is for a school to earn the top grades. A township or urban school to get a B or C grade would be similar to a team that has the talent to win 3 or 4 games in a season to reach a sectional final. That coach would be given major praise and kudos for doing that. If you spent any time in any of these districts and saw the programs they were providing and the success a large number of students were having you would be impressed. Some students will not be successful academically regardless of how much you provide for them and support them. IPS has many amazing teachers and administrators and their students are succeeding in all walks of life including academically. But if you only see the HS got a D from the grading system created to make them look bad then you will assume anyone from an IPS school is dumb and a failure. Fortunately I know that is far from the truth.

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33 minutes ago, JustRules said:

I had a longer response to your comments but it's obvious you aren't in education or understand how or why the grading systems work. A good analogy is you are saying the only people who have success on a football field are those who play on a team that makes it to a regional final. Everyone else is failing and should give up now. That is an absurd statement and anyone who is involved with any level of high school athletics knows is not true.

The grading system benefits schools and systems that already good students from stable backgrounds. The less common that is the harder it is for a school to earn the top grades. A township or urban school to get a B or C grade would be similar to a team that has the talent to win 3 or 4 games in a season to reach a sectional final. That coach would be given major praise and kudos for doing that. If you spent any time in any of these districts and saw the programs they were providing and the success a large number of students were having you would be impressed. Some students will not be successful academically regardless of how much you provide for them and support them. IPS has many amazing teachers and administrators and their students are succeeding in all walks of life including academically. But if you only see the HS got a D from the grading system created to make them look bad then you will assume anyone from an IPS school is dumb and a failure. Fortunately I know that is far from the truth.

Wrong.  The school corporations (one of which I am a part of) have amazing educators, who can only do so much DUE to the factors I mentioned.  It’s not a reflection of the educators, rather the other factors that go in to education.

Growth, which is what you are speaking of, is a great thing but the starting line is different for those suburban schools whom are affluent.

Two parent households with college educated adults who place a high priority on education are more readily seen in the donut counties these days. Those are the “stable backgrounds” you are speaking of above.

I can give you the stats all day if you’d like.  Your three paragraph response validated my stance.

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55 minutes ago, temptation said:

Wrong.  The school corporations (one of which I am a part of) have amazing educators, who can only do so much DUE to the factors I mentioned.  It’s not a reflection of the educators, rather the other factors that go in to education.

Growth, which is what you are speaking of, is a great thing but the starting line is different for those suburban schools whom are affluent.

Two parent households with college educated adults who place a high priority on education are more readily seen in the donut counties these days. Those are the “stable backgrounds” you are speaking of above.

I can give you the stats all day if you’d like.  Your three paragraph response validated my stance.

So you are saying any school district that doesn't have mostly two-parent households with college educated adults placing a high priority on education are horrible school districts that are barely hanging on. Should we just remove all those people from society so we only have A+ schools? That seems to be your solution based on what I'm reading. If that's not what you mean you aren't representing your position very well.

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