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Pioneer Last of a Dying Breed as BIG Money Takes Over


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The 2020 State Football Finals revealed the new face of championship level prep football in Indiana.

Big money, affluent communities are taking home the hardware, while the era of the blue collar, hard nosed, chip on the shoulder programs is coming to an end.

Its an unmistakable and irreversible development. And a bit sad as well.

* 6A Big money titans Center Grove and Westfield keep the mega school title game as a local Indy affair once again.  If youre not Indy metro in 6A, you might as well be in Afghanistan

* Deep pockets Cathedral schools old money Zionsville in the 5A title matchup.

* Affluent private Roncalli steamrolls blue collar Hobart in a 4A championship that will forever haunt the dreams of Brickie youth.

* Chatard toys with Danville and wins its state record 15th championship.

* Upscale 2A Western Boone nips private Fort Wayne Luers in a thriller

* 1A Covenant Christian, still a relatively new program, takes the 1A title.

Big money has ruled high school sports such as golf, tennis, swimming, cross country over the years.  Basketball too has succombed to the trend as high dollar off season training programs, AAU and private academy programs have deeply infiltrated the sport.

Football seemed to be the sport that still relied on grit, guile, sweat , power and sheer strength.

Not anymore.

Pioneer may be the last vestige of what once was on the Hoosier high school gridiron.  Long championship runs by public  schools like Hobart, Sheridan and even Penn are a thing of the past.  

The expansion of the CFP will continue to marginalize and minimize lower level college football.  The same will happen at the high school level as big money programs make those with fewer resources irrelevent.  

Those on the outside looking in will need to remain highly self motivated and diligent as they chase after an ever decreasing percentage of the championship  pie

 

 

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Upscale Western Boone--lol.

My  mom Phyllis was out of work when Xanadus shut down for the covids. I applied for free or reduced funions, nachos and wings but got denied. They said our trailer was too upscale because it’s a doub

Must be first day on forum, welcome. That’s how these posts go. DT makes an outlandish statement, it’s get disproven, and we move on.

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18 minutes ago, DT said:

The 2020 State Football Finals revealed the new face of championship level prep football in Indiana.

Big money, affluent communities are taking home the hardware, while the era of the blue collar, hard nosed, chip on the shoulder programs is coming to an end.

Its an unmistakable and irreversible development. And a bit sad as well.

* 6A Big money titans Center Grove and Westfield keep the mega school title game as a local Indy affair once again.  If youre not Indy metro in 6A, you might as well be in Afghanistan

* Deep pockets Cathedral schools old money Zionsville in the 5A title matchup.

* Affluent private Roncalli steamrolls blue collar Hobart in a 4A championship that will forever haunt the dreams of Brickie youth.

* Chatard toys with Danville and wins its state record 15th championship.

* Upscale 2A Western Boone nips private Fort Wayne Luers in a thriller

* 1A Covenant Christian, still a relatively new program, takes the 1A title.

Big money has ruled high school sports such as golf, tennis, swimming, cross country over the years.  Basketball too has succombed to the trend as high dollar off season training programs, AAU and private academy programs have deeply infiltrated the sport.

Football seemed to be the sport that still relied on grit, guile, sweat , power and sheer strength.

Not anymore.

Pioneer may be the last vestige of what once was on the Hoosier high school gridiron.  Long championship runs by public  schools like Hobart, Sheridan and even Penn are a thing of the past.  

The expansion of the CFP will continue to marginalize and minimize lower level college football.  The same will happen at the high school level as big money programs make those with fewer resources irrelevent.  

Those on the outside looking in will need to remain highly self motivated and diligent as they chase after an ever decreasing percentage of the championship  pie

 

 

Upscale Western Boone--lol.

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9 minutes ago, DT said:

The 2020 State Football Finals revealed the new face of championship level prep football in Indiana.

Big money, affluent communities are taking home the hardware, while the era of the blue collar, hard nosed, chip on the shoulder programs is coming to an end.

Its an unmistakable and irreversible development. And a bit sad as well.

* 6A Big money titans Center Grove and Westfield keep the mega school title game as a local Indy affair once again.  If youre not Indy metro in 6A, you might as well be in Afghanistan

* Deep pockets Cathedral schools old money Zionsville in the 5A title matchup.

* Affluent private Roncalli steamrolls blue collar Hobart in a 4A championship that will forever haunt the dreams of Brickie youth.

* Chatard toys with Danville and wins its state record 15th championship.

* Upscale 2A Western Boone nips private Fort Wayne Luers in a thriller

* 1A Covenant Christian, still a relatively new program, takes the 1A title.

Big money has ruled high school sports such as golf, tennis, swimming, cross country over the years.  Basketball too has succombed to the trend as high dollar off season training programs, AAU and private academy programs have deeply infiltrated the sport.

Football seemed to be the sport that still relied on grit, guile, sweat , power and sheer strength.

Not anymore.

Pioneer may be the last vestige of what once was on the Hoosier high school gridiron.  Long championship runs by public  schools like Hobart, Sheridan and even Penn are a thing of the past.  

The expansion of the CFP will continue to marginalize and minimize lower level college football.  The same will happen at the high school level as big money programs make those with fewer resources irrelevent.  

Those on the outside looking in will need to remain highly self motivated and diligent as they chase after an ever decreasing percentage of the championship  pie

 

 

It’s more than obvious you’ve never been through the towns that go to Western Boones. I swear to God it is!

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1 hour ago, Whiting89 said:

In the region seems like there is no big money affluent communities. Seems like the blue collar workers populate all communities. Munster maybe being the exception.

Crown Point, Valpo, Chesterton, St. John/Schererville would like to have a conversation with you.

I live in Wheatfield.  I would guess that there is as much money here (DeMotte and Wheatfield) per person, as those mentioned above.

 

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@DT, your prose is deathless. And, as usual, you’re not afraid to stick your neck out, prediction-wise. But while you make some very good points — and make them well — I don’t really see anything original here.

It has long been accepted that elevated socioeconomic status confers certain advantages which some programs use, while others do not. In this regard, it is like many other factors such as large numbers of participants, continuity and excellence in coaching, community buy-in, a supportive administration, great tradition, and the list goes on. Sustained program success is the product of many factors. It’s an overstatement to point to any one factor as determinative. There are just as many athletic failures in affluent communities (Munster is 3-27 during the last 3 seasons, for example) as there are successes.

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1 hour ago, Bobref said:

@DT, your prose is deathless. And, as usual, you’re not afraid to stick your neck out, prediction-wise. But while you make some very good points — and make them well — I don’t really see anything original here.

It has long been accepted that elevated socioeconomic status confers certain advantages which some programs use, while others do not. In this regard, it is like many other factors such as large numbers of participants, continuity and excellence in coaching, community buy-in, a supportive administration, great tradition, and the list goes on. Sustained program success is the product of many factors. It’s an overstatement to point to any one factor as determinative. There are just as many athletic failures in affluent communities (Munster is 3-27 during the last 3 seasons, for example) as there are successes.

We used to have public school dynasties.  I mentioned several.  They simply don't exist anymore.   How do you explain that?

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34 minutes ago, DT said:

We used to have public school dynasties.  I mentioned several.  They simply don't exist anymore.   How do you explain that?

There aren’t affluent public school communities?

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34 minutes ago, DT said:

We used to have public school dynasties.  I mentioned several.  They simply don't exist anymore.   How do you explain that?

How do you explain randomness? There are endless explanations, none of which can be “proved” with any degree of certainty.

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32 minutes ago, Bobref said:

How do you explain randomness? There are endless explanations, none of which can be “proved” with any degree of certainty.

The answer is simple

The big money suburban publics and the pps have combined to remove lower income public school districts from the championship conversation.  

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19 minutes ago, DT said:

The answer is simple

The big money suburban publics and the pps have combined to remove lower income public school districts from the championship conversation.  

Often wrong, but never in doubt. 

i don’t know the answer. But I know it’s not simple. There are far too many variables involved.

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Cannot ignore flaws in how the State funds its schools, and the fact that more than half of Indiana counties have seen population decreases. I am willing to bet the largest declines in population are in rural counties. 

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8 hours ago, DT said:

The 2020 State Football Finals revealed the new face of championship level prep football in Indiana.

Big money, affluent communities are taking home the hardware, while the era of the blue collar, hard nosed, chip on the shoulder programs is coming to an end.

Its an unmistakable and irreversible development. And a bit sad as well.

* 6A Big money titans Center Grove and Westfield keep the mega school title game as a local Indy affair once again.  If youre not Indy metro in 6A, you might as well be in Afghanistan

* Deep pockets Cathedral schools old money Zionsville in the 5A title matchup.

* Affluent private Roncalli steamrolls blue collar Hobart in a 4A championship that will forever haunt the dreams of Brickie youth.

* Chatard toys with Danville and wins its state record 15th championship.

* Upscale 2A Western Boone nips private Fort Wayne Luers in a thriller

* 1A Covenant Christian, still a relatively new program, takes the 1A title.

Big money has ruled high school sports such as golf, tennis, swimming, cross country over the years.  Basketball too has succombed to the trend as high dollar off season training programs, AAU and private academy programs have deeply infiltrated the sport.

Football seemed to be the sport that still relied on grit, guile, sweat , power and sheer strength.

Not anymore.

Pioneer may be the last vestige of what once was on the Hoosier high school gridiron.  Long championship runs by public  schools like Hobart, Sheridan and even Penn are a thing of the past.  

The expansion of the CFP will continue to marginalize and minimize lower level college football.  The same will happen at the high school level as big money programs make those with fewer resources irrelevent.  

Those on the outside looking in will need to remain highly self motivated and diligent as they chase after an ever decreasing percentage of the championship  pie

 

 

You're kind of all over the place here and don't make a ton of sense.  Pioneer is blue collar but Western Boone is upscale??  Center Grove is affluent but Penn is not?

I certainly would agree that the money in some communities provide an advantage but Western Boone is much closer to Sheridan and Pioneer in culture than they are to Chatard.   Penn does not lack for resources whatsoever and nobody that lives in the South Bend area thinks of them as blue collar.  

 

 

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6 hours ago, XStar said:

You're kind of all over the place here and don't make a ton of sense.  Pioneer is blue collar but Western Boone is upscale??  Center Grove is affluent but Penn is not?

I certainly would agree that the money in some communities provide an advantage but Western Boone is much closer to Sheridan and Pioneer in culture than they are to Chatard.   Penn does not lack for resources whatsoever and nobody that lives in the South Bend area thinks of them as blue collar.  

 

 

I did not make any reference to Penn as a blue collar community.  I linked it to Hobart and Sheridan as a former public school dynasty

With regards to Western Boone, it's proximity to Indianapolis gives it the perception, real or not, that the school is more upscale and affluent than the majority of its class peers.  

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I’m not sure this is news to anyone. I think the bigger issue is the flawed idea of success factor. I don’t believe it turns have nots into haves. It just ends up making the haves battle it out more often.

If the IHSAA reeeeally wanted to put forth the effort to “fix “classifications then they would use socioeconomics in the the formula.  That won’t happen, nor do I know that would really actually fix anything. It might just make it more convoluted. 

I think once upon a time I thought success factor would be this magical thing that helped. I think if anything a 2 year cycle prevents public schools from getting the momentum to be year in year out contenders. 
 

DT brings up Hobart… well yes a public school dynasty will never happen again like that for many reasons but success factor I think isn’t helping that. 
 

So Hobart makes it to semi- state 2 years ago, last year makes it to state and gets taken to the wood shed by a very good Roncalli team( who gets an amazing Chatatd team now in sectionals for both their efforts). Meanwhile Hobart has some nice teams coming up and I don’t see them going anywhere anytime soon. This year they are a probable favorite in the North to make it again. But they are stacking classes now so a deep run the following year can get them a move up to 5A where they can have moderate success and then hopefully 2 years later they can drop back down and be great for 2 more years before maybe moving up again etc. 
 

So without the classifications being made with socioeconomic status factoring in along with enrollment, (which I don’t have a model for just thinking out loud could by moot) and without at least a 4 year success factor built in you are just not likely to see another public school dynasty unless it’s a mega . Those calling for pp to have their own state.. save it won’t happen  maybe more teams will go Cathedral route and play up but it’s not likely.

Just build your program from youth level up and go compete and eliminate or amend success factor  complaining about things being unfair doesn’t win championships, just go compete.

 

 

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7 hours ago, XStar said:

You're kind of all over the place here and don't make a ton of sense.  Pioneer is blue collar but Western Boone is upscale??  Center Grove is affluent but Penn is not?

I certainly would agree that the money in some communities provide an advantage but Western Boone is much closer to Sheridan and Pioneer in culture than they are to Chatard.   Penn does not lack for resources whatsoever and nobody that lives in the South Bend area thinks of them as blue collar.  

 

 

That's because they are collar blind.

---Michael Scott

I will show myself out.  Carry on.

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25 minutes ago, GATA said:

I’m not sure this is news to anyone. I think the bigger issue is the flawed idea of success factor. I don’t believe it turns have nots into haves. It just ends up making the haves battle it out more often.

If the IHSAA reeeeally wanted to put forth the effort to “fix “classifications then they would use socioeconomics in the the formula.  That won’t happen, nor do I know that would really actually fix anything. It might just make it more convoluted. 

I think once upon a time I thought success factor would be this magical thing that helped. I think if anything a 2 year cycle prevents public schools from getting the momentum to be year in year out contenders. 
 

DT brings up Hobart… well yes a public school dynasty will never happen again like that for many reasons but success factor I think isn’t helping that. 
 

So Hobart makes it to semi- state 2 years ago, last year makes it to state and gets taken to the wood shed by a very good Roncalli team( who gets an amazing Chatatd team now in sectionals for both their efforts). Meanwhile Hobart has some nice teams coming up and I don’t see them going anywhere anytime soon. This year they are a probable favorite in the North to make it again. But they are stacking classes now so a deep run the following year can get them a move up to 5A where they can have moderate success and then hopefully 2 years later they can drop back down and be great for 2 more years before maybe moving up again etc. 
 

So without the classifications being made with socioeconomic status factoring in along with enrollment, (which I don’t have a model for just thinking out loud could by moot) and without at least a 4 year success factor built in you are just not likely to see another public school dynasty unless it’s a mega . Those calling for pp to have their own state.. save it won’t happen  maybe more teams will go Cathedral route and play up but it’s not likely.

Just build your program from youth level up and go compete and eliminate or amend success factor  complaining about things being unfair doesn’t win championships, just go compete.

 

 

Great points, and frankly, it all can be traced back to the need for a PP Multiplier.  The SF is the only way that the IHSAA could get approval for a model that forces the best programs to play up in class.  An unintended consequence of the SF is that it dilutes the potential for a  public school dynasty to develop.  Why is it ok for dynasties like Cathedral, Chatard, Luers , LCC to exist and thrive while potential public dynasties are snuffed out by the SF?  Thats just ridiculous.

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30 minutes ago, GATA said:

I’m not sure this is news to anyone. I think the bigger issue is the flawed idea of success factor. I don’t believe it turns have nots into haves. It just ends up making the haves battle it out more often.

If the IHSAA reeeeally wanted to put forth the effort to “fix “classifications then they would use socioeconomics in the the formula.  That won’t happen, nor do I know that would really actually fix anything. It might just make it more convoluted. 

I think once upon a time I thought success factor would be this magical thing that helped. I think if anything a 2 year cycle prevents public schools from getting the momentum to be year in year out contenders. 
 

DT brings up Hobart… well yes a public school dynasty will never happen again like that for many reasons but success factor I think isn’t helping that. 
 

So Hobart makes it to semi- state 2 years ago, last year makes it to state and gets taken to the wood shed by a very good Roncalli team( who gets an amazing Chatatd team now in sectionals for both their efforts). Meanwhile Hobart has some nice teams coming up and I don’t see them going anywhere anytime soon. This year they are a probable favorite in the North to make it again. But they are stacking classes now so a deep run the following year can get them a move up to 5A where they can have moderate success and then hopefully 2 years later they can drop back down and be great for 2 more years before maybe moving up again etc. 
 

So without the classifications being made with socioeconomic status factoring in along with enrollment, (which I don’t have a model for just thinking out loud could by moot) and without at least a 4 year success factor built in you are just not likely to see another public school dynasty unless it’s a mega . Those calling for pp to have their own state.. save it won’t happen  maybe more teams will go Cathedral route and play up but it’s not likely.

Just build your program from youth level up and go compete and eliminate or amend success factor  complaining about things being unfair doesn’t win championships, just go compete.

 

 

YES!

Control the controlables.

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The Pandemic has widened the gap between the PPs and the non affluent publics.  PPs and rich public schools cruised thru the pandemic and didnt miss a beat.  Lower income publics lost valuable practice time and sat on the sidelines while their counterparts continued to improve.

The need for The Multiplier has never been more evident than it is now.  We will likely see more new PPs like Covenant come out of nowhere and do in 5 years what it would take 25 years to accomplish for a public.  

No boundaried school should ever be forced to play up in class.  It defeats the basic principle that public and private school populations are NOT created equal.

 

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17 hours ago, DT said:

The 2020 State Football Finals revealed the new face of championship level prep football in Indiana.

Big money, affluent communities are taking home the hardware, while the era of the blue collar, hard nosed, chip on the shoulder programs is coming to an end.

Its an unmistakable and irreversible development. And a bit sad as well.

* 6A Big money titans Center Grove and Westfield keep the mega school title game as a local Indy affair once again.  If youre not Indy metro in 6A, you might as well be in Afghanistan

* Deep pockets Cathedral schools old money Zionsville in the 5A title matchup.

* Affluent private Roncalli steamrolls blue collar Hobart in a 4A championship that will forever haunt the dreams of Brickie youth.

* Chatard toys with Danville and wins its state record 15th championship.

* Upscale 2A Western Boone nips private Fort Wayne Luers in a thriller

* 1A Covenant Christian, still a relatively new program, takes the 1A title.

Big money has ruled high school sports such as golf, tennis, swimming, cross country over the years.  Basketball too has succombed to the trend as high dollar off season training programs, AAU and private academy programs have deeply infiltrated the sport.

Football seemed to be the sport that still relied on grit, guile, sweat , power and sheer strength.

Not anymore.

Pioneer may be the last vestige of what once was on the Hoosier high school gridiron.  Long championship runs by public  schools like Hobart, Sheridan and even Penn are a thing of the past.  

The expansion of the CFP will continue to marginalize and minimize lower level college football.  The same will happen at the high school level as big money programs make those with fewer resources irrelevent.  

Those on the outside looking in will need to remain highly self motivated and diligent as they chase after an ever decreasing percentage of the championship  pie

 

 

I live in the Western Boone Community... Where is this "upscale" that you speak of?

Have you been to Jamestown?  Thorntown?  Dover?  Advance?  

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57 minutes ago, DT said:

The Pandemic has widened the gap between the PPs and the non affluent publics.  PPs and rich public schools cruised thru the pandemic and didnt miss a beat.  Lower income publics lost valuable practice time and sat on the sidelines while their counterparts continued to improve.

The need for The Multiplier has never been more evident than it is now.  We will likely see more new PPs like Covenant come out of nowhere and do in 5 years what it would take 25 years to accomplish for a public.  

No boundaried school should ever be forced to play up in class.  It defeats the basic principle that public and private school populations are NOT created equal.

 

How so?  Why?

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5 hours ago, DT said:

I did not make any reference to Penn as a blue collar community.  I linked it to Hobart and Sheridan as a former public school dynasty

With regards to Western Boone, it's proximity to Indianapolis gives it the perception, real or not, that the school is more upscale and affluent than the majority of its class peers.  

You did not say Penn was blue collar but if you're not at least inferring that then I don't understand the point in including them in your argument here while excluding well-to-do giant schools like Center Grove and Westfield.  Just my opinion here but I think Penn just needs the right head coach to get back to actually competing for and winning state titles somewhat regularly.  They still have the favorable social and financial advantages they had in the 90's but lost their legendary coach.  That is the difference I see that prevents them from competing with the Indy powers in 2021.  

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6 hours ago, DT said:

I did not make any reference to Penn as a blue collar community.  I linked it to Hobart and Sheridan as a former public school dynasty

With regards to Western Boone, it's proximity to Indianapolis gives it the perception, real or not, that the school is more upscale and affluent than the majority of its class peers.  

Also, Sheridan is no further from Indianapolis than Western Boone.  Closer I think.  Why does that proximity give Western Boone the "perception" of being affluent but not Sheridan?  Again, inconsistency with how you choose to view things.  You seem to be distorting facts to try to arrive at the conclusion you've predetermined.  

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