Proposal to Make Enrollment based Adjustments to Class 5A and 6A

[Guest DT]

Dear GID Readers

I have emailed IHSAA Commissioner Neidig and Assistant Commissioner Football Faulkens regarding the proposal to modify Class 5A/6A  due to the current huge enrollment discrepancy between the top and bottom schools  in 6A

Please read thru the proposal and indicate either your support or rejection of this initiative.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hoosier High School Football

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Commentary : HHF Proposal to Make Enrollment based Adjustments to Class 5A and 6A

 

The IHSAA has gone to great lengths to make competitive balance a reality in both the regular season and in the state tournament as it relates to high school football in Indiana. From the additions of several classifications since the onset of the class structure in the early 70s, to the Success Factor, The Mercy Rule, etc, the IHSAA has worked diligently to give all schools equal access to regular season and post season success.

 

One gaping hole remains in the IHSAA's competitive balance playbook, and that is the misplacement of small 6A schools in the largest enrollment based classification. Given that football is an overwhelmingly numbers dependent activity, the Indianapolis mega schools have put a stranglehold on the 6A state tournament. The MIC and its 4 football titans Ben Davis, Warren Central, Carmel and Center Grove own the 6A tournament, passing it back and forth amongst themselves since the inception of the 6th class. The gap may be closing, as several other Indy area schools are now approaching "mega enrollment" status, schools like Avon, Fishers, HSE, Brownsburg who would like to think that they can play on a level field with The Big 4.

 

The challenge for the IHSAA comes at the bottom of the 6A enrollment chart. There are many schools that hover in the low 2000s range in enrollment who simply do not have the people resources to compete with schools at 50 to 100% higher in enrollment. Its a given, the state tournament results bear this out.

 

Solid football schools like Southport, Columbus North, Merrillville, Chesterton, Warsaw , Laf Jeff and Harrison, Jeffersonville , none have a realistic chance to represent their bracket in the 6A state title game. History tells us so.

 

The answer is to create a new Class 6A for the Top 24 schools in enrollment. This will create a new "Mega School " class, where 75% of the schools come out of the largest population center in the state. The others are large nearly 3000 student schools that have the resources needed to compete with the Indy megas.

 

5A has become a dull division, dominated by privates who have elevated to the class via the Success Factor, or vastly over achieving publics like New Pal who may or may not see that level of success again.

 

The small 6A schools mentioned previously would get a huge shot in the arm. As 5A schools, their goals just elevated from conference/sectional champion to 5A state champion.

 

The IHSAA would likely see increased revenue at the state finals as new schools would be making the trip to Lucas Oil. I'm sure the fans of Merrillville, Col North, Lafayette Jeff or Warsaw would love to have the opportunity to drive down to Indy to support their team in a 5A championship game.

 

We interviewed former commissioner Bobby Cox recently, and he voiced some general support for this change .

 

Scheduling and bye weeks will all work themselves out. We will leave that to the Athletic Directors and the IHSAA staff.

 

This change also sets a new enrollment range for 5A, which will be in the general range of 2200 high/ 1500 low. That's very workable.

 

Some will say that the classifications are already too watered down. We don't need a 7th class. We just need a class that better recognizes the competitive differences between schools with large enrollments and schools with "mega" enrollments.

 

This proposal hits that target

 

Tim Phillips

Hoosier High School Football

 

Class 6A - Top 24 in Enrollment

Carmel High School 5286 AAAAAA 1

Ben Davis High School 4499 AAAAAA 2

Warren Central High School 3821 AAAAAA 3

North Central (Indpls.) High School 3727 AAAAAA 4

Fishers High School 3509 AAAAAA 5

Penn High School 3338 AAAAAA 6

Lake Central High School3316 AAAAAA

Pike High School 3295 AAAAAA 8

Hamilton Southeastern HS 3273 AAAAAA 9

Avon High School 3095 AAAAAA 10

Noblesville High School 3001 AAAAAA 11

Elkhart High School 2800

Crown Point High School 2855 AAAAAA 12

Brownsburg High School 2810 AAAAAA 13

Franklin Central High School 2804 AAAAAA 14

Indpls. Arsenal Technical High School 2608 AAAAAA 15

Lawrence North High School 2596 AAAAAA 16

Center Grove High School 2521 AAAAAA 17

Perry Meridian High School 2445 AAAAAA 18

Portage High School 2436 AAAAAA 19

Homestead Senior High School 2424 AAAAAA 20

Carroll (F.W.) High School 2412 AAAAAA 21

Westfield High School 2334 AAAAAA 22

Lawrence Central High School 2290 AAAAAA 2

 

 

Class 5A - Schools 25-60 in enrollment (36 schools)

Southport High School 588 589 559 518 2254 AAAAAA 24

Merrillville High Sch 564 527 557 539 2187 AAAAAA 25

Warsaw Community HS 548 511 518 526 2103 AAAAAA 26

Lafayette Jefferson High School 587 492 546 438 2063 AAAAAA 27

Columbus North High School 568 535 470 490 2063 AAAAAA 28

Chesterton Senior High School 561 512 509 481 2063 AAAAAA 29

Zionsville Community High Sch 553 504 492 506 2055 AAAAAA 30

Valparaiso High School 511 477 529 537 2054 AAAAAA 31

Columbus East High School 383 373 342 377 1475 AAAAAA 32

Jeffersonville High School 536 506 498 495 2035 AAAAA 1

F.W. Northrop High School 500 536 492 504 2032 AAAAA 2

Harrison (W.Laf.) High Sch 515 533 472 459 1979 AAAAA 3

Castle High School 484 464 469 548 1965 AAAAA 4

Goshen High School 479 488 462 494 1923 AAAAA 5

Whiteland Community High Sch 506 488 438 484 1916 AAAAA 6

S.B. Adams High School 541 505 455 412 1913 AAAAA 7

F.W. Snider High School 474 474 452 460 1860 AAAAA 8

Decatur Central High School 441 484 492 428 1845 AAAAA 9

New Albany Senior High School 468 450 452 463 1833 AAAAA 10

LaPorte High School 494 427 462 436 1819 AAAAA 11

Floyd Central High School 442 455 458 460 1815 AAAAA 12

Anderson High School 452 435 471 452 1810 AAAAA 13

McCutcheon High School 460 438 461 423 1782 AAAAA 14

Terre Haute North Vigo High Sch 541 421 406 401 1769 AAAAA 15

Bloomington High School South 415 462 449 421 1747 AAAAA 16

Terre Haute South Vigo High Sch 484 446 413 390 1733 AAAAA 17

Bloomington High School North 441 411 437 420 1709 AAAAA 18

Plainfield High School 434 415 433 414 1696 AAAAA 19

Evans. North High School 434 420 399 431 1684 AAAAA 20

Concord Community High School 420 431 375 431 1657 AAAAA 21

Kokomo High School 402 391 398 439 1630 AAAAA 22

Michigan City High Sch 406 390 406 409 1611 AAAAA 24

Franklin Community High Sch 405 396 382 407 1590 AAAAA 25

F.W. North Side High School 390 380 375 405 1550 AAAAA 27

Seymour Senior High School 376 375 388 383 1522 AAAAA 28

Munster High School 399 367 383 372 1521 AAAAA 2

[MarshallCounty]

Intriguing idea.

[BTF]

I support.

[Indiana Fan]

There is always going to be a reason to change or people to feel frustrated. It is never going to fully make everyone happy. 2,200 or 2,000 students does not make a difference in my opinion. I get your reasoning, but I just don’t think this will affect things all that much. No point to do this in my opinion. If this actually goes through, then you will have schools who argue and complain that they are in the bottom of 6A when Carmel, BD, Warren, and North Central all have massive enrollments. Should we just make a class of the top 8 schools because their enrollments are that much more? Absolutely not. You can’t make accommodations for everyone.

[Guest DT]

1 hour ago, Indiana Fan said:

There is always going to be a reason to change or people to feel frustrated. It is never going to fully make everyone happy. 2,200 or 2,000 students does not make a difference in my opinion. I get your reasoning, but I just don’t think this will affect things all that much. No point to do this in my opinion. If this actually goes through, then you will have schools who argue and complain that they are in the bottom of 6A when Carmel, BD, Warren, and North Central all have massive enrollments. Should we just make a class of the top 8 schools because their enrollments are that much more? Absolutely not. You can’t make accommodations for everyone.

The # of mega schools in the state is growing.

When Class 6A was implemented, there were 5 schools with 3000 plus enrollment,  BD/WC/CA/NC/Penn

Today you can add the following schools to the 3000 enrollment list, with a few just a hundred or so short of reaching that milestone :

HSE/Fishers/Lake Central/Noblesville/Pike/Avon/Brownsburg/Crown Point

4 or 5 of the schools on that list feel they have what it takes to grab at title away from The Big 4.  Schools in the 2500-2900 range are going to have to become football factories like Center Grove if they expect to compete with the Super Megas.  

 

[Grover]

Reject

[oldunclemark]

One problem here is the size of the class.

A 24-team Class 6A would give eight teams a first round bye and just a four-game path t the title, right? 

I'd rather see the 32-team Class 6A stay as it is than  give 6A teams byes.

Class 5A shold be 64 teams. 

The first round byes should be in the enrollment-challenged Class 1A schools.  They have many two-way players and very small rosters.

Class 1A should be 32 teams and 5A should be 64. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by oldunclemark
spelling

[BTF]

4 hours ago, Indiana Fan said:

There is always going to be a reason to change or people to feel frustrated. It is never going to fully make everyone happy. 2,200 or 2,000 students does not make a difference in my opinion. I get your reasoning, but I just don’t think this will affect things all that much. No point to do this in my opinion. If this actually goes through, then you will have schools who argue and complain that they are in the bottom of 6A when Carmel, BD, Warren, and North Central all have massive enrollments. Should we just make a class of the top 8 schools because their enrollments are that much more? Absolutely not. You can’t make accommodations for everyone.

Pretty easy to say for someone who is affiliated with the Mega School Conference. DT's proposal gives eight more teams an opportunity to win the state title who otherwise would have a chance of slim to none.  

[BTF]

2 hours ago, Grover said:

Reject

Center grove is 2500 strong and growing. Why not give the bottom eight in enrollment an opportunity? Outside of Zionsville, the other proposed schools are more than likely sitting at a stagnant population. 

[gonzoron]

Everybody gets a trophy!

[Indiana Fan]

34 minutes ago, BTF said:

Center grove is 2500 strong and growing. Why not give the bottom eight in enrollment an opportunity? Outside of Zionsville, the other proposed schools are more than likely sitting at a stagnant population. 

Is Zionsville growing? I know they are pretty much a 6A school.

[BTF]

25 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Everybody gets a trophy!

Substance only please. Dumbest contribution to this thread yet. 

[gonzoron]

25 minutes ago, BTF said:

Substance only please. Dumbest contribution to this thread yet. 

That is substance. Everybody wants a trophy, give 'em one. That's the way sports are heading. Participation awards.

[BTF]

1 minute ago, gonzoron said:

That is substance. Everybody wants a trophy, give 'em one. That's the way sports are heading. Participation awards.

Actually, no. Everybody just wants an opportunity to compete in their own weight class. 

[gonzoron]

5 minutes ago, BTF said:

Actually, no. Everybody just wants an opportunity to compete in their own weight class. 

Then they should try wrestling.

[DE]

9 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Then they should try wrestling.

Just how many weight classes are there in wrestling?  More than 6 imsc. Sounds like your everybody gets a trophy mentality is directed at the wrong sport. 

[Indiana Fan]

25 minutes ago, BTF said:

Actually, no. Everybody just wants an opportunity to compete in their own weight class. 

Technically you would still have a huge gap between the smallest in 6A to the largest. Is it really the same weight class then? Again, there will always be cut offs that will make others say it’s not fair. It’s just how it is.  

[BTF]

1 minute ago, Indiana Fan said:

Technically you would still have a huge gap between the smallest in 6A to the largest. Is it really the same weight class then? Again, there will always be cut offs that will make others say it’s not fair. It’s just how it is.  

Correct, still a big gap. BUT..............under DT's proposal, eight teams will get a shot at playing in Lucas Oil in their own weight class who otherwise would have no chance at winning a state championship. 

[Grover]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Center grove is 2500 strong and growing. Why not give the bottom eight in enrollment an opportunity? Outside of Zionsville, the other proposed schools are more than likely sitting at a stagnant population. 

We are less than half the size of Carmel.

But where does it stop?  The formation of 6A was supposed to fix the imbalance.  What's next?  Some won't be happy until all of their competitors are pushed into another division.  Enough already.

[Grover]

8 minutes ago, BTF said:

Correct, still a big gap. BUT..............under DT's proposal, eight teams will get a shot at playing in Lucas Oil in their own weight class who otherwise would have no chance at winning a state championship. 

 

Southport's enrollment is 36 less than Lawrence Central which has won a big school title.  It is 80 less than Westfield which was runner-up last season.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Grover

[gonzoron]

18 minutes ago, DE said:

Just how many weight classes are there in wrestling?  More than 6 imsc. Sounds like your everybody gets a trophy mentality is directed at the wrong sport. 

There are Zero enrollment based classes in Indiana high school wrestling Danny. I'm fine with going back to that in football and basketball. 

[BTF]

9 minutes ago, Grover said:

 

Southport's enrollment is 36 less than Lawrence Central which has won a big school title.  It is 80 less than Westfield which was runner-up last season.

LC won "a" big school title. So have some other small programs. How many do Carmel, Ben Davis, and WC have?

Westfield joins a long list of schools who were "runner-up" to larger enrollment schools. 

[Guest DT]

20 minutes ago, Grover said:

We are less than half the size of Carmel.

But where does it stop?  The formation of 6A was supposed to fix the imbalance.  What's next?  Some won't be happy until all of their competitors are pushed into another division.  Enough already.

Center Grove athletics entire identity is based on its football program.  Dont deny it, because it is true.  Carmel's identity is built on a multitude of sports for both girls and boys.  Carmel has a billion more state championships than Center Grove.  And it will always be that way.  CG has chosen to be a "football school", has put all its eggs in the football basket, and it overperforms to such a level that it can compete with the mega enrollment schools.  CG is in no position to be a spokesperson for what is right or wrong with 6A.  

[Grover]

5 minutes ago, BTF said:

LC won "a" big school title. So have some other small programs. How many do Carmel, Ben Davis, and WC have?

Westfield joins a long list of schools who were "runner-up" to larger enrollment schools. 

You said "get a shot at playing in Lucas Oil".  They got a shot.  LC won.  What is your real goal?

[Grover]

2 minutes ago, DT said:

Center Grove athletics entire identity is based on its football program.  Dont deny it, because it is true.  Carmel's identity is built on a multitude of sports for both girls and boys.  Carmel has a billion more state championships than Center Grove.  And it will always be that way.  CG has chosen to be a "football school", has put all its eggs in the football basket, and it overperforms to such a level that it can compete with the mega enrollment schools.  CG is in no position to be a spokesperson for what is right or wrong with 6A.  

CG does pretty good in other sports too.  We haven't won as many titles as Carmel but I don't want to re-write the rules to make it so we can.