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Proposal to Make Enrollment based Adjustments to Class 5A and 6A


Guest DT

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3 minutes ago, Bears62 said:

Because schools with 1600 students have a much better chance of beating a school with 2100 students than a school of 2100 students does at beating a school of 3000-5200 students. Thought that was obvious 

All of the other proposals in the thread are just going to move the problem down to different teams at the lower level. My solution eliminates that.

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16 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

All of the other proposals in the thread are just going to move the problem down to different teams at the lower level. My solution eliminates that.

So it's the "Big School, But Not Quite Big Enough" classification.

 

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Let’s just make 40 classes of 8 teams each. That way it’s perfectly fair for every single team and nobody has to gripe or complain. Everybody is happy. Everybody gets a “fair shot.” Problem solved. No more talk about enrollments being too large or mega schools or metro areas in the state. Thread complete. 
 

Oh yeah and here is a plus, more state finals games to watch during thanksgiving 🙂

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1 hour ago, Bears62 said:

Anyone else find it it strange all the people against DT’s proposition are fans of schools like BD, CG, Cathedral and Carmel? These people act like schools like Chesterton and Lafayette Jeff are on the same playing field as Ben Davis. How hard headed and stubborn do you need to be to deny the huge population disadvantages these schools have? This is strictly about giving these 8 programs a more fair shot at a deep tourney run. That’s all. The IHSAA can’t stop the big 4 from putting the best teams on the field and passing the trophy back and forth, but they can at least do their best to balance it as best they see fit. The bullcrap response about participation trophies from Grover is so lame. Talk about being narrow-minded. We get it dude, CG can win it all with 2500 students. They are an outlier. Outliers exist. Do you get off by having schools that have good football programs that could compete with the best in 5a stuck at the bottom of 6a? Or do you just really like the number 32 for some reason? Really weird

There's an unlevel playing field in literally every class. The state tournament is designed to crown the best team, not cater to individual schools. As for Center Grove, Center Grove wasn't an outlier until they were. 

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

There's an unlevel playing field in literally every class. The state tournament is designed to crown the best team, not cater to individual schools. As for Center Grove, Center Grove wasn't an outlier until they were

I think we need a translator.  LOL

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15 minutes ago, DT said:

I think we need a translator.  LOL

Not hard to understand. 20 years ago Center Grove was no different than Warsaw, LC, Southport, Perry Meridian, etc. playing in a class with schools that had twice their enrollment. They figured it out. They didn't used to be an outlier.

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1 hour ago, Bash Riprock said:

I respect your opinion.  We disagree that they 75% of those schools are title contenders in 5A.  That's cool.

Westfield played in the state title game last year in 6A.  Yet they less than 100 students larger than the first of your 8 schools to be moved down, and <300 from the smallest 6A school. (based upon enrollment)  CG won the title last year in 6A with <500 from the smallest 6A school.  (based on enrollment)  How do you explain this?

There are 3 large 6A schools that tend to win or play for state titles on a consistent basis.  Isn't this really about running from the outliers?

BTW, thanks for the discussion....this is an interesting topic and I do appreciate your thoughts.

Westfield has 2400 students and a free and reduced rate well under 20 percent.

CG roughly the same amount of students and a free and reduced rate of just over 20 percent.

That's how.

 

Edited by temptation
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18 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Not hard to understand. 20 years ago Center Grove was no different than Warsaw, LC, Southport, Perry Meridian, etc. playing in a class with schools that had twice their enrollment. They figured it out. They didn't used to be an outlier.

20 years ago, there were zero schools over 4000 students and CG was sitting over 2000 already.

"Cathedral competes with 1200!  Why can't everyone???"

3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

So it's not really about enrollment then? 

Not sure why I am still surprised you don't get it.  All schools of equal enrollment are not equal on the playing field due to off the field factors.  I've explained this to you dozens of times.  I've given countless examples.

Westfield and CG's 2500 students are nowhere near a fair comparison to Arsenal Tech's.

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15 minutes ago, temptation said:

20 years ago, there were zero schools over 4000 students and CG was sitting over 2000 already.

"Cathedral competes with 1200!  Why can't everyone???"

So how does Center Grove compete better today at a much larger enrollment disadvantage than they did 20 years ago?? It ain't about enrollment. 

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6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

So how does Center Grove compete better today at a much larger enrollment disadvantage than they did 20 years ago?? It ain't about enrollment. 

20 years ago, both Warren and BD had free/reduced lunch rates well under 50 percent.

You’re playing checkers here dude.

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34 minutes ago, temptation said:

Not sure why I am still surprised you don't get it.  All schools of equal enrollment are not equal on the playing field due to off the field factors.  I've explained this to you dozens of times.  I've given countless examples.

Westfield and CG's 2500 students are nowhere near a fair comparison to Arsenal Tech's.

And I've given you countless example of why outside factors (namely socioeconomic factors) don't really mean a damn thing. Of the 11-12 would be considered "mega-enrollment schools":

-Carmel

-Ben Davis

-Warren

-North Central

-Fishers

-Penn

-Lake Central

-Pike

-HSE

-Avon

-Noblesville

-Crown Point

Literally half of those schools are non-factors in 6A. Penn, Lake Central, Noblesville, Fishers all have extremely high socioeconomic factors and very few free and reduced lunch and are still terrible at football. HSE is very average given the factors you ascribe to be a winning formula and North Central as of 2-3 years ago was absolutely terrible. Throw in Pike as well. 

We're better off making a separate class for Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren, and Center Grove because it clearly isn't a mega-enrollment problem. 

20 minutes ago, temptation said:

20 years ago, both Warren and BD had free/reduced lunch rates well under 50 percent.

You’re playing checkers here dude.

Checkers? Dude, you haven't even passed Go yet. Everything you've stated is instantly debunked when it comes to socioeconomic factors (see post above).

Edited by Footballking16
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13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

And I've given you countless example of why outside factors (namely socioeconomic factors) don't really mean a damn thing. Of the 11-12 would be considered "mega-enrollment schools":

-Carmel

-Ben Davis

-Warren

-North Central

-Fishers

-Penn

-Lake Central

-Pike

-HSE

-Avon

-Noblesville

-Crown Point

Literally half of those schools are non-factors in 6A. Penn, Lake Central, Noblesville, Fishers all have extremely high socioeconomic factors and very few free and reduced lunch and are still terrible at football. HSE is very average given the factors you ascribe to be a winning formula and North Central as of 2-3 years ago was absolutely terrible. Throw in Pike as well. 

We're better off making a separate class for Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren, and Center Grove because it clearly isn't a mega-enrollment problem. 

Checkers? Dude, you haven't even passed Go yet. Everything you've stated is instantly debunked when it comes to socioeconomic factors (see post above).

I take it back.  You are playing Candy Land.


Penn and Fishers are “terrible” huh?  Both have played in the state finals recently.

So, it’s NOT enrollment and it’s NOT socioeconomics...so it’s ALL culture I’m betting?

So, when is Edinburgh scheduling Carmel?  They seem to have turned the corner when it comes to culture based on DT’s interview last week.

Edited by temptation
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21 minutes ago, temptation said:

Penn and Fishers are “terrible” huh?  Both have played in the state finals recently.

Penn and Fishers are no better than the majority of the 8 teams DT is petitioning to move to 5A. It's not an enrollment issue. 

 

21 minutes ago, temptation said:

So, it’s NOT enrollment and it’s NOT socioeconomics...so it’s ALL culture I’m betting?

What else is it then? If you're a school with 3000+ students and only a quarter or so of your students are on free/reduced lunch, how is it anything other than a culture issue?

 

21 minutes ago, temptation said:

So, when is Edinburgh scheduling Carmel?  They seem to have turned the corner when it comes to culture based on DT’s interview last week.

The same week Center Grove schedules the Colts. Nonsensical whataboutism. 

Edited by Footballking16
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1 hour ago, Indiana Fan said:

Let’s just make 40 classes of 8 teams each. That way it’s perfectly fair for every single team and nobody has to gripe or complain. Everybody is happy. Everybody gets a “fair shot.” Problem solved. No more talk about enrollments being too large or mega schools or metro areas in the state. Thread complete. 
 

Oh yeah and here is a plus, more state finals games to watch during thanksgiving 🙂

Here we go again DT. Another poster from the MIC. With the exception of BDGiant93, I think the rest of them just want people to think that Indianapolis has the best football pound for pound in any class. 

Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central are going to put a good team together no matter how many students they have.....they are good programs. But if they were the same enrollment as their counterparts, they'd have 5 state championships in the last 20 years instead of 15 (that's a compliment by the way). Bottom line, sorry, I know that's going to hurt some feelings. 

39 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

It ain't about enrollment. 

And 2+2 dosen't =4. Common sense has gone completely out the window. 

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Lost in all this nonsense about enrollment is the real root of the problem; tournament alignment. 

We aren't having this conversation if Carmel went South every year. By my count, there are 6 mega school enrollments who go North; Fishers, Penn, HSE, Lake Central, Noblesville, and Crown Point. No one would give a damn and complain about a mega-enrollment disadvantage if a team like Warsaw or Carroll were losing to teams like Lake Central and Crown Point. 

A school like Columbus North can't compete in 6A not because they are at an enrollment disadvantage but because they can't beat the like-sized public school 30 miles up the road. Same goes for Warsaw, Lafayette Jeff, Chesterton. These teams aren't bowing out every year to Carmel, Warren, BD, they can't even get out sectionals. It's a silly and preposterous argument. 

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1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Penn and Fishers are no better than the majority of the 8 teams DT is petitioning to move to 5A. It's not an enrollment issue. 

 

What else is it then? If you're a school with 3000+ students and only a quarter or so of your students are on free/reduced lunch, how is it anything other than a culture issue?

 

The same week Center Grove schedules the Colts. Nonsensical whataboutism. 

I have already stated that Lake Central and Noblesville get no pass from me.  
 

The only other school that fits into your 3000+ with a 25% or less f/r/l is Fishers and they are not “terrible” by any means.  They are a top 30-35 team regardless of class that just happens to play a hellacious schedule.

Penn is not what they used to be but they are far from the door mat you portray them to be.

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18 minutes ago, temptation said:

Penn is not what they used to be but they are far from the door mat you portray them to be.

Does 6A warrant realignment because of Penn? Fishers, North Central, Pike, Lake Central, HSE; all top 10 enrollments? I didn't think so. 

Edited by Footballking16
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1 hour ago, BTF said:

Here we go again DT. Another poster from the MIC. With the exception of BDGiant93, I think the rest of them just want people to think that Indianapolis has the best football pound for pound in any class. 

Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central are going to put a good team together no matter how many students they have.....they are good programs. But if they were the same enrollment as their counterparts, they'd have 5 state championships in the last 20 years instead of 15 (that's a compliment by the way). Bottom line, sorry, I know that's going to hurt some feelings. 

And 2+2 dosen't =4. Common sense has gone completely out the window. 

Read the Jason Simmons interview.  He addresses this directly and honestly

 

 

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