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Indiana Catholic Football Needs a Governor to Regulate Out of Control Football Dominance


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1 hour ago, DT said:

That is why WL is an "elite" program.  There are maybe 15 or 20 of them in the state.  BTW, i would not refer to any other Laf area program as "elite"

Yet they all do exactly what you claim Chatard does that gives Chatard the "CYO advantage."  Incidentally, LCC doesn't do CYO and they don't run the varsity playbook either, but like WL and Harrison and Jeff, they start the kids in their programs around 3rd grade.  Incidentally, Benton Central also starts their kids out around 3rd grade tackle too.

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9 hours ago, DT said:

It goes down to the Catholic CYU culture.  Kids start playing football at 6 years old.  In pads by 8.  Running formations by 10.  Mimicking high school offenses at 11.  

CYO basketball does not get this kind of attention.

Plus a very high percentage of these CYO kids are average white Catholic boys who turn into football players after 6 years of CYO ball.  

Many public high school kids dont even put on pads until their freshman year.  Just

imagine   the head start these cyo kids get, which is why they are so far ahead and advanced when they reach high school.

Chatard freshman have been running the varsity offense for several years and know how to block, tackle, run pass routes, etc.  Frankfort freshman  kids are still learning how to put their shoulder pads on straight and stand upright in a huddle.  

Hogwash. Maybe they don't put pads on until freshman year where you're from, that explains a lot, but that's not the way public schools do it in Central Indiana. No wonder the region can't compete.

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7 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Hogwash. Maybe they don't put pads on until freshman year where you're from, that explains a lot, but that's not the way public schools do it in Central Indiana. No wonder the region can't compete.

Yeah, most of the good public programs down our way have good youth/feeder programs.

I’ve felt like GS has one that any and all programs should emulate.  And I think it has a lot to do with their sustained success.

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The CYO advantage stems from the depth that is produced at the feeder level. In other words, a 3A school like Chatard is drawing from 7-8 small catholic grade schools on the northside of Indianapolis who all have their own football teams comprised of 15-20 players who all get to play compared to a 3A public who may only be drawing from 1 large junior high school, in some cases two. So in most years Chatard is bringing in 3-4 QB's who have all started from 3rd grade on, 5-6 RB's, a ton of OL/DL, and so on. It not only provides depth once they get to the 9th grade but also competition that always rises to the top.

If a school like Frankfort is just learning how to put on pads and standing in a huddle in the 9th grade that is a Frankfort problem, not a Chatard problem. 

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13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

The CYO advantage stems from the depth that is produced at the feeder level. In other words, a 3A school like Chatard is drawing from 7-8 small catholic grade schools on the northside of Indianapolis who all have their own football teams comprised of 15-20 players who all get to play compared to a 3A public who may only be drawing from 1 large junior high school, in some cases two. So in most years Chatard is bringing in 3-4 QB's who have all started from 3rd grade on, 5-6 RB's, a ton of OL/DL, and so on. It not only provides depth once they get to the 9th grade but also competition that always rises to the top.

If a school like Frankfort is just learning how to put on pads and standing in a huddle in the 9th grade that is a Frankfort problem, not a Chatard problem. 

This. Very good analysis. And you arent even a lawyer! The publics have numbers ,big schools, but few are starters or are playing consistently. Small schools, numbers are low, thus every one gets playing time, game experience at an earlier age. multipe small schools produce more athletes who are ready to contribute earlier. 

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47 minutes ago, southend said:

This. Very good analysis. And you arent even a lawyer! The publics have numbers ,big schools, but few are starters or are playing consistently. Small schools, numbers are low, thus every one gets playing time, game experience at an earlier age. multipe small schools produce more athletes who are ready to contribute earlier. 

I will pile on to this:

More teams and smaller teams means more coaching goes to those fewer individuals.

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52 minutes ago, fenderbender said:

I will pile on to this:

More teams and smaller teams means more coaching goes to those fewer individuals.

Concentrated yelling. 😀

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1 hour ago, southend said:

This. Very good analysis. And you arent even a lawyer! The publics have numbers ,big schools, but few are starters or are playing consistently. Small schools, numbers are low, thus every one gets playing time, game experience at an earlier age. multipe small schools produce more athletes who are ready to contribute earlier. 

There is no CYO in Evansville.  Down here, the only HS that has a league with teams affiliated with feeder school is Memorial.  The feeders often pair up to get enough numbers since so many kids play the devil's games (soccer and fall ball).  

Central, North, GS, HH and Castle all have youth leagues (not necessarily run by the HS, but with varying degrees of input from the HS coach).  Most of the MD and Reitz younglings play in a westside league.  There is also a league on the eastside.  Our teams play against some of the other leagues from time to time to get some variety in the scheduling.  I know nothing about the number of teams or roster sizes in those leagues though.  

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2 minutes ago, tango said:

There is no CYO in Evansville.  Down here, the only HS that has a league with teams affiliated with feeder school is Memorial.  The feeders often pair up to get enough numbers since so many kids play the devil's games (soccer and fall ball).  

Central, North, GS, HH and Castle all have youth leagues (not necessarily run by the HS, but with varying degrees of input from the HS coach).  Most of the MD and Reitz younglings play in a westside league.  There is also a league on the eastside.  Our teams play against some of the other leagues from time to time to get some variety in the scheduling.  I know nothing about the number of teams or roster sizes in those leagues though.  

Indy Catholic CYO football is run like a professional organization.  Tightly managed.  Huge community support.  Strong finances.  It is the basic building block of the Chatard-Roncalli-Cathedral football machine.

 

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18 minutes ago, DT said:

Indy Catholic CYO football is run like a professional organization.  Tightly managed.  Huge community support.  Strong finances.  It is the basic building block of the Chatard-Roncalli-Cathedral football machine.

 

So why do the rest of the state P/P's get lumped in with regards to an automatic one class bump?

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

So why do the rest of the state P/P's get lumped in with regards to an automatic one class bump?

Do you really think the other PPs have feeder systems similar to a Frankfort, Yorktown, Jennings County, Rushville, Highland, Wawasee< etc?

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3 minutes ago, tango said:

There is no CYO in Evansville.  Down here, the only HS that has a league with teams affiliated with feeder school is Memorial.  The feeders often pair up to get enough numbers since so many kids play the devil's games (soccer and fall ball).  

Central, North, GS, HH and Castle all have youth leagues (not necessarily run by the HS, but with varying degrees of input from the HS coach).  Most of the MD and Reitz younglings play in a westside league.  There is also a league on the eastside.  Our teams play against some of the other leagues from time to time to get some variety in the scheduling.  I know nothing about the number of teams or roster sizes in those leagues though.  

This is where LCC is too.  There are three elementary schools that eventually feed into LCC, but technically it's really like two schools because one school is K-6, another is K-3, and the third is 4-6.  In a good year, there are enough kids for two teams at 5th/6th grade and two at 3rd/4th, but it usually ends up being a single 3rd/4th and two small 5th/6th teams.  The LCC program tends to play other programs around the area.  For a while it was a much larger league where LCC was playing WL, schools that fed into Harrison ... like East Tipp, Klondike, and Battleground ... Delphi, Frontier, South Newton, Kankakee Valley, and Benton Central.  Recently though, Harrison formed its own self-contained league like McCutcheon did with Little Mavs and Jeff did with 56ers.  LCC was playing Benton Central and South Newton and occasionally playing some teams out of the Monticello Youth League and affiliates like North White and Twin Lakes.  I think this season, LCC will be playing games against the Jeff 56er teams.

The Harrison program is a self-contained program.  I think this season the plan is, based on the number of kids that I see coming out on a regular basis for practice is probably 5-6 3rd/4th grade teams and maybe 7-8 5th/6th grade teams.  In that case there, you are getting the benefit of the small number instruction in a big school program.

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24 minutes ago, DT said:

Do you really think the other PPs have feeder systems similar to a Frankfort, Yorktown, Jennings County, Rushville, Highland, Wawasee< etc?

I have no clue what other P/P feeder programs look like and frankly don't care. From the poster above it sounds like a lot of the Evansville kids play in the same youth leagues as the public school kids. 

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8 minutes ago, DT said:

Do you really think the other PPs have feeder systems similar to a Frankfort, Yorktown, Jennings County, Rushville, Highland, Wawasee< etc?

No, but I think they have feeder programs like Westfield, Gibson Southern, Center Grove, Harrison, West Lafayette, Pioneer, ...

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2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

The CYO advantage stems from the depth that is produced at the feeder level. In other words, a 3A school like Chatard is drawing from 7-8 small catholic grade schools on the northside of Indianapolis who all have their own football teams comprised of 15-20 players who all get to play compared to a 3A public who may only be drawing from 1 large junior high school, in some cases two. So in most years Chatard is bringing in 3-4 QB's who have all started from 3rd grade on, 5-6 RB's, a ton of OL/DL, and so on. It not only provides depth once they get to the 9th grade but also competition that always rises to the top.

If a school like Frankfort is just learning how to put on pads and standing in a huddle in the 9th grade that is a Frankfort problem, not a Chatard problem. 

Yep...I would add to that in a lot of public programs, that ONE kid who has played QB (or any other position, but QB carries the most responsibility) for a few years in youth league and in junior high at times will pick other sports instead of football. So, someone has to be developed who has never played. The likely candidate would be a kid who may have been a back up possibly quit before his freshman year because he was just a back up. 

As far as the Frankfort Chatard comparison, I would say don't judge so harshly. We are a 4A program and have that as an issue as well. The high number of move ins and just kids trying the game for the first time are factors that a program cannot control. 

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1 hour ago, southend said:

This. Very good analysis. And you arent even a lawyer! The publics have numbers ,big schools, but few are starters or are playing consistently. Small schools, numbers are low, thus every one gets playing time, game experience at an earlier age. multipe small schools produce more athletes who are ready to contribute earlier. 

This isn’t new information.  It’s been stated here on the GID only about 1,000 times yet DT fails to mention it as the real CYO advantage.

BTW, if there are 8 different North Archdiocese CYO teams in Indianapolis, they likely run 8 different offenses….none of them being Chatard’s.  This isn’t Center Grove.  Coach Doyle isn’t even allowed to speak to CYO kids or parents individually let alone direct what offenses they run.

As some background, let’s also add that Chatard is lucky if they get 30-40% of their own CYO kids since they generally split them with Cathedral, Brebeuf, Lawrence Central, Lawrence North, North Central, and even Guerin.

But again, like other posters, I’m not really covering any new ground in saying any of this - yet DT seems oblivious to it.

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15 minutes ago, Irishman said:

As far as the Frankfort Chatard comparison, I would say don't judge so harshly. We are a 4A program and have that as an issue as well. The high number of move ins and just kids trying the game for the first time are factors that a program cannot control. 

That begs the question:  Is it really feasible for a high school football coach to basically teach the game of football to a 15-16 year old that has never before played the game, and have them "coached up" enough to have a positive contribution at the varsity level?

I would say unless that 15-16 year old is an "OMG! Athlete" that answer is almost always no, and that in these programs that have highly developed and robust feeder programs where numbers are not an issue that 15-16 year old is probably discreetly persuaded to find another fall sport to participate in.

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8 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

That begs the question:  Is it really feasible for a high school football coach to basically teach the game of football to a 15-16 year old that has never before played the game, and have them "coached up" enough to have a positive contribution at the varsity level?

I would say unless that 15-16 year old is an "OMG! Athlete" that answer is almost always no, and that in these programs that have highly developed and robust feeder programs where numbers are not an issue that 15-16 year old is probably discreetly persuaded to find another fall sport to participate in.

The persuasion likely does happen. My perspective is that as long as the kid is out every day and is trying, doing all the work his teammates are, then he deserves my best. If kids like that stick it out for 4 years, who knows what can happen? I have had a LOT of kids over the years that worked themselves into starting roles by their senior year. I also see kids that never became starters, but did become coaches after college, so there is that to consider as well. There is no clearer sign to me that a program had an impact on a kid than to see them give back as coaches. 

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39 minutes ago, Lysander said:

This isn’t new information.  It’s been stated here on the GID only about 1,000 times yet DT fails to mention it as the real CYO advantage.

BTW, if there are 8 different North Archdiocese CYO teams in Indianapolis, they likely run 8 different offenses….none of them being Chatard’s.  This isn’t Center Grove.  Coach Doyle isn’t even allowed to speak to CYO kids or parents individually let alone direct what offenses they run.

As some background, let’s also add that Chatard is lucky if they get 30-40% of their own CYO kids since they generally split them with Cathedral, Brebeuf, Lawrence Central, Lawrence North, North Central, and even Guerin.

But again, like other posters, I’m not really covering any new ground in saying any of this - yet DT seems oblivious to it.

I get it.  trust me, I get it

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We are back to talking about how great feeder programs are what separates great P/Ps and great Publics.  No Sh!t.  I say the top third of all teams in the state do football well....almost every aspect.  Those qualities have little to do with the problem. The reason is that P/Ps simply have different enrollment types vs publics and have more athletes per capita.  It's very simple.  Enrollment is literally the worst way to compare these two dissimilar institutions.  Yet we have guys on here spouting out philosophical BS regarding equality of outcomes, politics of envy bla bla ba, when they know damn well what the real issues is.  This isn't a society or an economy......it's a game for children with rules.  I'm pretty sure Friedrich Nietzsche didn't play football. 

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8 hours ago, Titan32 said:

We are back to talking about how great feeder programs are what separates great P/Ps and great Publics.  No Sh!t.  I say the top third of all teams in the state do football well....almost every aspect.  Those qualities have little to do with the problem. The reason is that P/Ps simply have different enrollment types vs publics and have more athletes per capita.  It's very simple.  Enrollment is literally the worst way to compare these two dissimilar institutions.  Yet we have guys on here spouting out philosophical BS regarding equality of outcomes, politics of envy bla bla ba, when they know damn well what the real issues is.  This isn't a society or an economy......it's a game for children with rules.  I'm pretty sure Friedrich Nietzsche didn't play football. 

He probably did not, but his son Raymond did

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