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34 minutes ago, PHJIrish said:

According to the Cathedral website, tickets will be sold at the gate.  If, for some reason, this isn't correct someone please let us know.

I can share the link to purchase if need be.  I do think you can buy at the gate though.

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I agree that part of this is the "decline of South Bend" (as well as other parts of Northern Indiana).  But decline may not be the best term, it may be more of a lack of growth compared to suburban Indy.  Enrollment data show's you some of the effects.  In the 90's and early 00's Penn's enrollment was MUCH larger compared to the majority of Indy metro schools.  Save a few big MIC schools.  In the 90's, HSE was a single 3A school!! Penn is now very "middle of the pack" in size compared to MIC and HCC...

  1. Carmel High School 5286
  2. Ben Davis High School 4499
  3. Warren Central 3821
  4. North Central 3727
  5. Fishers 3509
  6. Penn 3338
  7. Lake Central 3316
  8. Pike 3295
  9. HSE 3273
  10. Avon 3095
  11. Noblesville 3001
  12. 6 schools over 2500

These are the currently used enrollment numbers by IHSAA...not necessarily the "actual" enrollments of those schools.  I'd love to see mid 90's enrollment numbers but don't have the time to look.  Penn doesn't have a size advantage in 6A.  Further, the metro schools that have caught up in size, now have a much better "competition advantage" than Penn does in the NIC.  MIC and HCC schools play "Penn's" every week.  How often does Penn play near peer competition?  Hat's off to Coach Y and Penn trying to fill their schedule with stiffer competition such as Cathedral.  Its very hard for a large school outside Indy Metro to find the quality of competition that the larger Indy Metro schools enjoy on a regular basis.  I'd also argue there is a larger "pool" of quality coaches in the Indy Metro area.  Staff's change and get shaken up regularly.  A quality coach can easily begin coaching at other programs without changing their address or where their own kids go to school.  This is much different in other parts of the state, where changing coaching jobs/filling coaching jobs may require someone moving the whole family.

Edited by US31
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1 hour ago, US31 said:

I agree that part of this is the "decline of South Bend" (as well as other parts of Northern Indiana).  But decline may not be the best term, it may be more of a lack of growth compared to suburban Indy.  Enrollment data show's you some of the effects.  In the 90's and early 00's Penn's enrollment was MUCH larger compared to the majority of Indy metro schools.  Save a few big MIC schools.  In the 90's, HSE was a single 3A school!! Penn is now very "middle of the pack" in size compared to MIC and HCC...

  1. Carmel High School 5286
  2. Ben Davis High School 4499
  3. Warren Central 3821
  4. North Central 3727
  5. Fishers 3509
  6. Penn 3338
  7. Lake Central 3316
  8. Pike 3295
  9. HSE 3273
  10. Avon 3095
  11. Noblesville 3001
  12. 6 schools over 2500

These are the currently used enrollment numbers by IHSAA...not necessarily the "actual" enrollments of those schools.  I'd love to see mid 90's enrollment numbers but don't have the time to look.  Penn doesn't have a size advantage in 6A.  Further, the metro schools that have caught up in size, now have a much better "competition advantage" than Penn does in the NIC.  MIC and HCC schools play "Penn's" every week.  How often does Penn play near peer competition?  Hat's off to Coach Y and Penn trying to fill their schedule with stiffer competition such as Cathedral.  Its very hard for a large school outside Indy Metro to find the quality of competition that the larger Indy Metro schools enjoy on a regular basis.  I'd also argue there is a larger "pool" of quality coaches in the Indy Metro area.  Staff's change and get shaken up regularly.  A quality coach can easily begin coaching at other programs without changing their address or where their own kids go to school.  This is much different in other parts of the state, where changing coaching jobs/filling coaching jobs may require someone moving the whole family.

That would be interesting data to find, I am pretty sure in the mid 1990's that Ben Davis, Penn and North Central were probably the three largest high schools in the state ( in that order).   I would think Carmel would have been about half the size it is now....as I recall it was in 1992-1993 is when they expanded / construction to pretty much double the size of the school.

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Elkhart Co. has a more diverse industrial base than South Bend (St Joe Co).  South Bend while population is slightly up there have been no major businesses or places opening that would attract people.  The housing areas in the Penn district continue to grow and there are SB families who have sent their kids to Penn.  You do not see the size and physical nature of players like you do around Indy.

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https://www.ihsaa.org/archive/b-baseball/Assignments20012003.htm

Here is early 00's.  Would still love to find something from mid 90s.  I copied all the schools over 1,000 students.  What is most interesting is how much disparity there is now....The difference between today's Top and bottom of 6A (Carmel & Valpo 5286-2054=3,232) is much larger than the total enrollment of BD in the early 00's.

Rank

School

Students, Grades 9-11

1.

Ben Davis

2771

2.

Carmel

2597

3.

North Central (Indianapolis)

2409

4.

Warren Central

2285

5.

Penn

2118

6.

Pike

2012

7.

Indianapolis Tech

1989

8.

Lake Central

1982

9.

Portage

1908

10.

Lawrence North

1786

11.

Indianapolis Arlington

1748

12.

Terre Haute North

1639

13.

Fort Wayne Northrop

1625

14.

Hamilton Southeastern

1596

15.

Valparaiso

1593

16.

Lafayette Jefferson

1584

17.

Center Grove

1551

18.

Huntington North

1551

19.

Lawrence Central

1548

20.

Merrillville

1547

21.

Kokomo

1509

22.

New Albany

1482

23.

LaPorte

1474

24.

Fort Wayne Snider

1461

25.

Michigan City

1422

26.

Crown Point

1413

27.

Warsaw Community

1400

28.

Terre Haute South

1378

29.

Homestead

1378

30.

Richmond

1373

31.

Perry Meridian

1363

32.

Elkhart Central

1361

33.

Bloomington South

1352

34.

Chesterton

1352

35.

Columbus North

1339

36.

Indianapolis Northwest

1331

37.

Jeffersonville

1323

38.

Southport

1311

39.

Indianapolis Broad Ripple

1307

40.

Noblesville

1269

41.

South Bend Riley

1264

42.

Franklin Central

1243

43.

Mishawaka

1239

44.

Elkhart Memorial

1236

45.

Marion

1224

46.

Martinsville

1201

47.

Indianapolis Manual

1199

48.

East Chicago Central

1196

49.

Bedford North Lawrence

1192

50.

Evansville Harrison

1172

51.

Anderson

1167

52.

Evansville Reitz

1160

53.

Castle

1156

54.

Anderson Highland

1132

55.

Evansville North

1130

56.

Fort Wayne South Side

1118

57.

Gary West Side

1110

58.

Harrison (West Lafayette)

1107

59.

Goshen

1092

60.

Decatur Central

1084

61.

Avon

1080

62.

Bloomington North

1063

63.

Floyd Central

1063

64.

Brownsburg

1062

65.

Jennings County

1061

66.

Evansville Central

1049

67.

Carroll (Fort Wayne)

1040

68.

Columbus East

1034

69.

Fort Wayne North Side

1025

70.

South Bend Adams

1020

71.

Concord

1016

72.

McCutcheon

1015

73.

Gary Wallace

1011

74.

East Central

1003

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Maybe Penn should go ahead and accept that standing invitation to join the DAC? While they would be near the top in most female sports, and many of the mens sports, they would probably be in 6th or 7th place this year in football. Once feared in the region, taking beatings by Valpo, and losing the to LaPorte and Chesterton in the past year has taken that fear away. 

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2 hours ago, US31 said:

https://www.ihsaa.org/archive/b-baseball/Assignments20012003.htm

Here is early 00's.  Would still love to find something from mid 90s.  I copied all the schools over 1,000 students.  What is most interesting is how much disparity there is now....The difference between today's Top and bottom of 6A (Carmel & Valpo 5286-2054=3,232) is much larger than the total enrollment of BD in the early 00's.

Rank

School

Students, Grades 9-11

1.

Ben Davis

2771

2.

Carmel

2597

3.

North Central (Indianapolis)

2409

4.

Warren Central

2285

5.

Penn

2118

6.

Pike

2012

7.

Indianapolis Tech

1989

8.

Lake Central

1982

9.

Portage

1908

10.

Lawrence North

1786

11.

Indianapolis Arlington

1748

12.

Terre Haute North

1639

13.

Fort Wayne Northrop

1625

14.

Hamilton Southeastern

1596

15.

Valparaiso

1593

16.

Lafayette Jefferson

1584

17.

Center Grove

1551

18.

Huntington North

1551

19.

Lawrence Central

1548

20.

Merrillville

1547

21.

Kokomo

1509

22.

New Albany

1482

23.

LaPorte

1474

24.

Fort Wayne Snider

1461

25.

Michigan City

1422

26.

Crown Point

1413

27.

Warsaw Community

1400

28.

Terre Haute South

1378

29.

Homestead

1378

30.

Richmond

1373

31.

Perry Meridian

1363

32.

Elkhart Central

1361

33.

Bloomington South

1352

34.

Chesterton

1352

35.

Columbus North

1339

36.

Indianapolis Northwest

1331

37.

Jeffersonville

1323

38.

Southport

1311

39.

Indianapolis Broad Ripple

1307

40.

Noblesville

1269

41.

South Bend Riley

1264

42.

Franklin Central

1243

43.

Mishawaka

1239

44.

Elkhart Memorial

1236

45.

Marion

1224

46.

Martinsville

1201

47.

Indianapolis Manual

1199

48.

East Chicago Central

1196

49.

Bedford North Lawrence

1192

50.

Evansville Harrison

1172

51.

Anderson

1167

52.

Evansville Reitz

1160

53.

Castle

1156

54.

Anderson Highland

1132

55.

Evansville North

1130

56.

Fort Wayne South Side

1118

57.

Gary West Side

1110

58.

Harrison (West Lafayette)

1107

59.

Goshen

1092

60.

Decatur Central

1084

61.

Avon

1080

62.

Bloomington North

1063

63.

Floyd Central

1063

64.

Brownsburg

1062

65.

Jennings County

1061

66.

Evansville Central

1049

67.

Carroll (Fort Wayne)

1040

68.

Columbus East

1034

69.

Fort Wayne North Side

1025

70.

South Bend Adams

1020

71.

Concord

1016

72.

McCutcheon

1015

73.

Gary Wallace

1011

74.

East Central

1003

HCC Schools:  (Then/Now)

Hamilton Southeastern - 14/9 (would be #1 if Fishers weren’t built)

Noblesville - 40/11

Franklin Central - 42/14

Avon - 61/10

Brownsburg - 64/13

Zionsville - 108/30

Westfield - 111/22

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2 hours ago, US31 said:

https://www.ihsaa.org/archive/b-baseball/Assignments20012003.htm

Here is early 00's.  Would still love to find something from mid 90s.  I copied all the schools over 1,000 students.  What is most interesting is how much disparity there is now....The difference between today's Top and bottom of 6A (Carmel & Valpo 5286-2054=3,232) is much larger than the total enrollment of BD in the early 00's.

Rank

School

Students, Grades 9-11

1.

Ben Davis

2771

2.

Carmel

2597

3.

North Central (Indianapolis)

2409

4.

Warren Central

2285

5.

Penn

2118

6.

Pike

2012

7.

Indianapolis Tech

1989

8.

Lake Central

1982

9.

Portage

1908

10.

Lawrence North

1786

11.

Indianapolis Arlington

1748

12.

Terre Haute North

1639

13.

Fort Wayne Northrop

1625

14.

Hamilton Southeastern

1596

15.

Valparaiso

1593

16.

Lafayette Jefferson

1584

17.

Center Grove

1551

18.

Huntington North

1551

19.

Lawrence Central

1548

20.

Merrillville

1547

21.

Kokomo

1509

22.

New Albany

1482

23.

LaPorte

1474

24.

Fort Wayne Snider

1461

25.

Michigan City

1422

26.

Crown Point

1413

27.

Warsaw Community

1400

28.

Terre Haute South

1378

29.

Homestead

1378

30.

Richmond

1373

31.

Perry Meridian

1363

32.

Elkhart Central

1361

33.

Bloomington South

1352

34.

Chesterton

1352

35.

Columbus North

1339

36.

Indianapolis Northwest

1331

37.

Jeffersonville

1323

38.

Southport

1311

39.

Indianapolis Broad Ripple

1307

40.

Noblesville

1269

41.

South Bend Riley

1264

42.

Franklin Central

1243

43.

Mishawaka

1239

44.

Elkhart Memorial

1236

45.

Marion

1224

46.

Martinsville

1201

47.

Indianapolis Manual

1199

48.

East Chicago Central

1196

49.

Bedford North Lawrence

1192

50.

Evansville Harrison

1172

51.

Anderson

1167

52.

Evansville Reitz

1160

53.

Castle

1156

54.

Anderson Highland

1132

55.

Evansville North

1130

56.

Fort Wayne South Side

1118

57.

Gary West Side

1110

58.

Harrison (West Lafayette)

1107

59.

Goshen

1092

60.

Decatur Central

1084

61.

Avon

1080

62.

Bloomington North

1063

63.

Floyd Central

1063

64.

Brownsburg

1062

65.

Jennings County

1061

66.

Evansville Central

1049

67.

Carroll (Fort Wayne)

1040

68.

Columbus East

1034

69.

Fort Wayne North Side

1025

70.

South Bend Adams

1020

71.

Concord

1016

72.

McCutcheon

1015

73.

Gary Wallace

1011

74.

East Central

1003

FWIW, I see that these numbers are for grades 9 through 11 whereas the current numbers posted before it on the current enrollment of the bigger Marion County and the doughnut county schools are for grades 9 through 12. Regardless, it shows the effect of the overflow of Indy area population into those school districts. Many of the those schools use to be quiet rural schools with fairly low enrollments before the mass exodus of people from Indy over the last 20-30 years.

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On 8/30/2021 at 5:18 PM, Bobref said:

This board used to be absolutely loaded with Penn people. But now, barely a whisper. That’s unfortunate, because I’d really like to hear some thoughts about what has caused the steady decline of that program.

I might be the only one willing to dive in here. I do have some thoughts. Consistent, strong competition has been absent for too long, while the biggest guns in the state have only gotten more competitive with each other, all the way through their programs. I'm not sure that Penn's offensive transition to a more modern style truly fits the program's demographics, and I think that affects their ability to play the complementary style of football that defined the program for so many years. Even Penn's best quarterbacks, did not, for the most part, light it up through the air except for playing off of the run game, and they were often a significant, effective, component of the run game, even if in a undesigned way. 

On 8/30/2021 at 6:58 PM, Footballking16 said:

1. 6A has simply caught up. During the 90’s and early 2000’s, you weren’t going to find many teams bigger and stronger than Penn. I’d say most 6A programs today have not only caught up to the Kingsman in their strength and conditioning program, but left them in the dust. Penn just looks like a 4A school when they line up to play.

I agree that other schools have caught up, although I disagree somewhat with the characterization of the Penn teams of yore and their size relative to the peer competition. While I played on teams that had a couple of monsters - perhaps three division 1 big guys over my four years - Penn has been a program that has gotten by with more from less in terms of physical development and impressiveness. Penn did often have average to slightly above average sized backs, and that has seemed to change over the years.

That said, the team is much less impressive off the hoof relative to the top competition than they already often were in years past. The high school has employed a strength and conditioning coach for at least four years now, if records are accurate, which I imagine is a significantly shorter term than many of the other large programs competing with each other in the Indy metro area. We all know Ben Davis had a dedicated strength coach for decades. 

On 8/30/2021 at 6:58 PM, Footballking16 said:

likely a level of apathy.

Been setting in for many years I'm afraid, and is a logical outcome of much of the success and preordained outcomes of many contests against local competition for decades. Even when the program was humming along there was apathy with regard to much of the schedule. 

5 hours ago, US31 said:

Further, the metro schools that have caught up in size, now have a much better "competition advantage" than Penn does in the NIC.  MIC and HCC schools play "Penn's" every week.  How often does Penn play near peer competition?

This has been my argument for years, and I maintain that it's especially important at the freshman and junior varsity levels. Penn's freshman and JVs almost never play against the best in their age group because of the size of the local teams requires those players to take varsity reps on Friday nights. 

Additionally, I think that level of competition in the MIC and HCC encourages innovation and has far reaching effects within those programs. The weekly grind of competition has been a huge de facto advantage for the MIC programs, and I think that became obvious relatively early in the 2000s. Now the HCC is in a similar position. 

2 hours ago, DACNUT said:

Maybe Penn should go ahead and accept that standing invitation to join the DAC?

No way around it, the administration blundered in 2002, and if the invitation is still standing - truly - they have continued to blunder to this day. Plenty of evidence exists out there that Penn is comfortable with teams traveling for much of their competition in all sports. 

4 hours ago, Dave007 said:

That would be interesting data to find, I am pretty sure in the mid 1990's that Ben Davis, Penn and North Central were probably the three largest high schools in the state ( in that order).   I would think Carmel would have been about half the size it is now....as I recall it was in 1992-1993 is when they expanded / construction to pretty much double the size of the school.

I don't know if the source is too reliable or not, but public school review has data going back into the 90s that you could comb through to get an idea. It's not aggregated but it exists.

 

These are just some thoughts, of course. 

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9 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

I might be the only one willing to dive in here. I do have some thoughts. Consistent, strong competition has been absent for too long, while the biggest guns in the state have only gotten more competitive with each other, all the way through their programs. I'm not sure that Penn's offensive transition to a more modern style truly fits the program's demographics, and I think that affects their ability to play the complementary style of football that defined the program for so many years. Even Penn's best quarterbacks, did not, for the most part, light it up through the air except for playing off of the run game, and they were often a significant, effective, component of the run game, even if in a undesigned way. 

I agree that other schools have caught up, although I disagree somewhat with the characterization of the Penn teams of yore and their size relative to the peer competition. While I played on teams that had a couple of monsters - perhaps three division 1 big guys over my four years - Penn has been a program that has gotten by with more from less in terms of physical development and impressiveness. Penn did often have average to slightly above average sized backs, and that has seemed to change over the years.

That said, the team is much less impressive off the hoof relative to the top competition than they already often were in years past. The high school has employed a strength and conditioning coach for at least four years now, if records are accurate, which I imagine is a significantly shorter term than many of the other large programs competing with each other in the Indy metro area. We all know Ben Davis had a dedicated strength coach for decades. 

Been setting in for many years I'm afraid, and is a logical outcome of much of the success and preordained outcomes of many contests against local competition for decades. Even when the program was humming along there was apathy with regard to much of the schedule. 

This has been my argument for years, and I maintain that it's especially important at the freshman and junior varsity levels. Penn's freshman and JVs almost never play against the best in their age group because of the size of the local teams requires those players to take varsity reps on Friday nights. 

Additionally, I think that level of competition in the MIC and HCC encourages innovation and has far reaching effects within those programs. The weekly grind of competition has been a huge de facto advantage for the MIC programs, and I think that became obvious relatively early in the 2000s. Now the HCC is in a similar position. 

No way around it, the administration blundered in 2002, and if the invitation is still standing - truly - they have continued to blunder to this day. Plenty of evidence exists out there that Penn is comfortable with teams traveling for much of their competition in all sports. 

I don't know if the source is too reliable or not, but public school review has data going back into the 90s that you could comb through to get an idea. It's not aggregated but it exists.

 

These are just some thoughts, of course. 

I know it’s been done before but 90+minute trips in rush hour traffic from Mishawaka to Merrillville/Crown Point sounds miserable.

Would ANY road trip be under an hour?

Edited by temptation
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6 minutes ago, temptation said:

I know it’s been done before but 90+minute trips in rush hour traffic from Mishawaka to Merrillville/Crown Point sounds miserable.

Would ANY road trip be under an hour?

Laporte and MC are an hour more or less. Valpo, Chesterton and Portage are all basically the same toll road exit and you get to avoid a lot of the headache. Yeah, the others are a little more of a challenge to get to. However, the various programs have been making trips to the region for decades, and not just one offs either. 

As a player, we made enough of those trips that I can say I didn't mind. If they're worried about gate, I'm not sure they're getting all that much to begin with. 

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7 hours ago, Sports Freak20 said:

I can share the link to purchase if need be.  I do think you can buy at the gate though.

I don't need the link but someone here might and it's also good to know that tickets are available at the gate.  Thanks for the offer.

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16 hours ago, ptr said:

FWIW, I see that these numbers are for grades 9 through 11 whereas the current numbers posted before it on the current enrollment of the bigger Marion County and the doughnut county schools are for grades 9 through 12. Regardless, it shows the effect of the overflow of Indy area population into those school districts. Many of the those schools use to be quiet rural schools with fairly low enrollments before the mass exodus of people from Indy over the last 20-30 years.

Good catch...hadn't noticed that.

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No doubt the Donut districts have exploded in population over the last 30 years, but you need to note that the population of Indianapolis as a city has increased during that time as well. Just the entire Indianapolis area has increased during the last 30 years. I think we look at the downfall of IPS and assume it reflects a decline of people living within the city, but the numbers show an increase of people living in Indianapolis. Clearly parents are sending their kids to charters, P/Ps, and suburban schools.  Are all the kids playing on the P/P teams from outside Indianapolis. 

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1 hour ago, DACNUT said:

Are all the kids playing on the P/P teams from outside Indianapolis. 

No not even close. But P/P's pull more from the Marion County Twp Schools than they do IPS. It's not that uncommon at all, especially at schools like Brebeuf or Cathedral, to see a kid go their local township public school grades 1-8 and end up going to one of those schools. But I think it's pretty rare to see a kid go IPS grades 1-8 and end up at a P/P. Large majority of the IPS kids leaving after 8th grade are going to charter schools. 

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This is only out of curiosity.....does Penn accept out of district transfers?  I haven't lived up north for a long time, but it would seem there would be some interest in people doing that.

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20 hours ago, PDB26 said:

I might be the only one willing to dive in here. I do have some thoughts.

As thorough, thoughtful, and thought provoking as any analysis I can remember seeing on the GID. Thank you.

I did not notice any reference to the local youth football programs. I have seen several cases of “creeping apathy” reducing a once solid program to one barely competitive. A “disconnect” between the youth programs and the high school programs can result in kids growing and thinking it’s no big deal to wear that jersey. A culture that was built over decades can disappear in a few years. Not saying that’s the case at Penn, I have no idea. What’s the state of youth football in Granger? It used to be huge.

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13 hours ago, DACNUT said:

No doubt the Donut districts have exploded in population over the last 30 years, but you need to note that the population of Indianapolis as a city has increased during that time as well. Just the entire Indianapolis area has increased during the last 30 years. I think we look at the downfall of IPS and assume it reflects a decline of people living within the city, but the numbers show an increase of people living in Indianapolis. Clearly parents are sending their kids to charters, P/Ps, and suburban schools.  Are all the kids playing on the P/P teams from outside Indianapolis. 

The population of Indianapolis proper has increased modestly at best.  Since the 1970 census (post-unigov) vaulted Indy from 26th largest US city to 11th largest, their modest gains in population have not kept pace with other cities. They are now 17th largest. There is a decline in people living in the original city limits, most have flocked to township schools (Washington, Wayne, Warren, Lawrence, Franklin, Perry, Pike, Decatur), and still more have migrated to the donut counties.

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8 hours ago, Staxawax said:

The population of Indianapolis proper has increased modestly at best.  Since the 1970 census (post-unigov) vaulted Indy from 26th largest US city to 11th largest, their modest gains in population have not kept pace with other cities. They are now 17th largest. There is a decline in people living in the original city limits, most have flocked to township schools (Washington, Wayne, Warren, Lawrence, Franklin, Perry, Pike, Decatur), and still more have migrated to the donut counties.

Got it, so those Townships are still considered part of the city of Indianapolis for the census. 

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22 hours ago, US31 said:

This is only out of curiosity.....does Penn accept out of district transfers?  I haven't lived up north for a long time, but it would seem there would be some interest in people doing that.

The school corporation does accept students from outside of the district.

22 hours ago, Bobref said:

As thorough, thoughtful, and thought provoking as any analysis I can remember seeing on the GID. Thank you.

Thank you.

22 hours ago, Bobref said:

I did not notice any reference to the local youth football programs. I have seen several cases of “creeping apathy” reducing a once solid program to one barely competitive. A “disconnect” between the youth programs and the high school programs can result in kids growing and thinking it’s no big deal to wear that jersey. A culture that was built over decades can disappear in a few years. Not saying that’s the case at Penn, I have no idea. What’s the state of youth football in Granger? It used to be huge.

This is an interesting topic. The youth league used to be called Granger Rocket Football, and, as I understood it, it was, if not exclusively, almost exclusively a Penn youth league. It is now called Rocket Football and Cheer and seems to service players from a wider geographic area--not a bad thing in the grand scheme--but that could lead to some disconnect. I seem to recall, during the early 2000s, an expansion in the number of teams within the rocket league, but after looking at their website it seems they're down to ten. Maybe there is just less participation within the traditional Penn boundaries at that level. 

One of the teams in the league is coached by former Mishawaka players, which isn't a problem and John Carlson was a DAMN good football player for the Cavemen. I'm sure those kids are well coached. Is it possible that could lead to some disconnect with the program? I can't say for sure, but I don't know what the general level of connection to the Penn program is for the average parent or coach in the rocket league anymore or if it's all that different.

I have lots of thoughts on creeping apathy as well--and I'm happy to go on about that too--but I think its mostly structural and outside of the program's control. 

Edited by PDB26
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2 hours ago, DACNUT said:

Got it, so those Townships are still considered part of the city of Indianapolis for the census. 

Correct. That was the direct result in Richard Lugar's unigov........ expand the city limits to include the entire county. I think the only ones excluded were Beech Grove and Speedway, which were there own towns.

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