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Sectional Draws


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On 10/4/2021 at 7:41 PM, CLKeller16 said:

As a Snider fan, I am also sick of our Sectionals just being "SAC Regular Season 2.0" ever since 2013. We get no out of conference play until Week 13, which is absolutely atrocious. SAC needs broken up into East/West or North/South divisions, 5 teams to each. Play 4 games against all other teams in your division, 2 each of cross divisional games and out of conference, and save week 9 for championship week, where each team plays the team from the other division with the same ranking.

Then, rather than seeding each class and then basing sectionals off of those seedings, I have a different idea that would preserve the excitement of sectional drawings: at sectionals drawings, instead of telling each sectional which teams are playing each other, randomly pair teams from one half of the state together into sectionals, then seed those sectionals based off of who is in them. It would be wildly chaotic, but would mostly eliminate the issue of teams seeing the same competition in sectionals that they do in the regular season. It would be possible to have Indy teams and South Bend teams in the same sectional, or Fort Wayne teams and West Lafayette teams. There could be a sectional with the top teams in the class. Smaller teams could actually have a chance to build momentum and even make it to a State Championship game. I know a lot of people would be opposed to it, but I can't think of a more exciting way to do things.

Scheduling is not as easy as you might think. At least with a slate full of conference games, you don't have to fill the other ones. 

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On 10/4/2021 at 6:41 PM, CLKeller16 said:

As a Snider fan, I am also sick of our Sectionals just being "SAC Regular Season 2.0" ever since 2013. We get no out of conference play until Week 13, which is absolutely atrocious. SAC needs broken up into East/West or North/South divisions, 5 teams to each. Play 4 games against all other teams in your division, 2 each of cross divisional games and out of conference, and save week 9 for championship week, where each team plays the team from the other division with the same ranking.

Same here. The thing I hate the most about being Success Factored into 4A is that our Sectional is pretty much just SIAC V.2, with the potential added bonus of a 2.5 hr. road trip to Brazil to play Northview.  I always loved the change of scenery the post-season brought in 3A. 

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4 hours ago, BACKSIDEBELLY said:

I guess I don’t understand what the big deal is.  Unless you win and move on to the regional round, what difference does it make who you play in your sectional?  You’ll have to beat any or all teams anyway.  

Mostly because the #1 or #2 team is done after week 1, but the 0-9 team who got a favorable draw gets to play another week. It's one thing if it happens on the field due to an upset. It's another if a 2 or 3 win team makes it to the sectional final because their side of the bracket had all 2 or 3 win teams. For very selfish reasons it's disappointing to get assigned to a sectional final game with a 9-2 team traveling to a 2-9 team. It's likely no fans will be there and you'll have a running clock in the second half.

Where else besides Indiana high school sports are teams randomly assigned to opponent and location in a post-season tournament? Explain this to someone not from Indiana and they will think you are crazy and making it up. It's not logical. But it is what it is, and I'll be happy to get any tournament assignment I can get.

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40 minutes ago, JustRules said:

Mostly because the #1 or #2 team is done after week 1, but the 0-9 team who got a favorable draw gets to play another week. It's one thing if it happens on the field due to an upset. It's another if a 2 or 3 win team makes it to the sectional final because their side of the bracket had all 2 or 3 win teams. For very selfish reasons it's disappointing to get assigned to a sectional final game with a 9-2 team traveling to a 2-9 team. It's likely no fans will be there and you'll have a running clock in the second half.

Where else besides Indiana high school sports are teams randomly assigned to opponent and location in a post-season tournament? Explain this to someone not from Indiana and they will think you are crazy and making it up. It's not logical. But it is what it is, and I'll be happy to get any tournament assignment I can get.

I guess I wasn’t looking at it like that.  The more football, the better!

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3 hours ago, BACKSIDEBELLY said:

I guess I wasn’t looking at it like that.  The more football, the better!

It’s not more football. The number of games doesn’t change. But it’s better football when seeding makes it more likely that the matchups get better as the tournament goes along.

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2 hours ago, Bobref said:

It’s not more football. The number of games doesn’t change. But it’s better football when seeding makes it more likely that the matchups get better as the tournament goes along.

I was talking about it being more football for the higher ranked team that would otherwise lose that first round game.

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On 10/6/2021 at 11:40 AM, BDGiant93 said:

Scheduling is not as easy as you might think. At least with a slate full of conference games, you don't have to fill the other ones. 

I never said it would be easy. But would you rather have the easy to set up schedule that gives you the same competition year in and year out, or put the effort in to construct a schedule that gives you the best opportunities for your young men to grow and become more competitive? I know when I was at Snider, I really looked forward to the Penn games. It was something different, something exciting, and brought out the best in our players.

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3 hours ago, CLKeller16 said:

I never said it would be easy. But would you rather have the easy to set up schedule that gives you the same competition year in and year out, or put the effort in to construct a schedule that gives you the best opportunities for your young men to grow and become more competitive? I know when I was at Snider, I really looked forward to the Penn games. It was something different, something exciting, and brought out the best in our players.

You might end up with open holes. What's better? Don't play some week or play a game?

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20 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

You might end up with open holes. What's better? Don't play some week or play a game?

I guess it's situational. Let's look at a few hypothetical situations:

Let's say the SAC splits into Big School/Small School divisions based on enrollment (I personally would rather see an East/West split but I think this is more likely). The divisions would be as follows:

Big Schools                   Small Schools

Homestead                   Bishop Luers

Carroll                           Concordia

Northrop                       Bishop Dwenger

Snider                           South Side

Wayne                           North Side

Each team would play all others in their division, as well as two cross division games, and saving Week 9 for Championship Week. That covers 7 weeks of play, leaving 2 weeks open for out of conference play. Lets say, hypothetically, that Snider constructs a schedule that follows as such:

  1. Homestead
  2. Northrop
  3. Bishop Dwenger
  4. Wayne
  5. Carroll
  6. *Open Week*
  7. Penn
  8. North Side
  9. *Championship Week*

Now Snider has an open week between two tough opponents. The optimal thing to do here would be to look for a lower caliber team (albeit one that still provides a enough of a challenge to give the kids coaching and growth opportunities) in the Northeast region to fill that gap and let the starters rest up between two hard games. However, if there are no teams that fit the bill for that week, I personally think it would be better for the Panthers to take a bye-week rather than fill that slot with a team of higher caliber, which would only increase the chance of injury and wear them down going into a trap game against the Legends, potentially spoiling their Week 9 dreams. This bye-week, paired with their game against the Kingsmen and the first round sectionals bye-week, sets up the Panthers for a great post season run.

Now let's look look at a situation to your point where Snider could suffer from this type of scheduling:

  1. Carroll
  2. Homestead
  3. South Side
  4. Wayne
  5. *Open Week*
  6. Concordia
  7. *Open Week*
  8. Northrop
  9. *Championship Week*

Snider has their two biggest divisional opponents in weeks 1 and 2. After that they are really struggling to find anyone to fill the gaps between a 6 week stretch of easy games. No one from the MIC, HCC, or just in the North has an open week that lines up with Snider's schedule. All they can find are low caliber teams, or teams from deep into Southern Indiana, and Ohio and Michigan (which pose their own logistical challenges). Snider is left scrambling and may be left potentially empty handed, playing a 6 week schedule that gives them absolutely nothing to challenge them, setting them up for failure for the SAC crown and the playoffs.

 

So to answer your question, it depends. If the second situation comes up often enough (more than once every 10 years), then it's not worth it. But I think it is more likely that the first situation will be what we would see. And, as I stated above, I personally think missing a game in that situation wouldn't actually be any different from filling that week with a team like New Haven. 

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20 minutes ago, CLKeller16 said:

I guess it's situational. Let's look at a few hypothetical situations:

Let's say the SAC splits into Big School/Small School divisions based on enrollment (I personally would rather see an East/West split but I think this is more likely). The divisions would be as follows:

Big Schools                   Small Schools

Homestead                   Bishop Luers

Carroll                           Concordia

Northrop                       Bishop Dwenger

Snider                           South Side

Wayne                           North Side

Each team would play all others in their division, as well as two cross division games, and saving Week 9 for Championship Week. That covers 7 weeks of play, leaving 2 weeks open for out of conference play. Lets say, hypothetically, that Snider constructs a schedule that follows as such:

  1. Homestead
  2. Northrop
  3. Bishop Dwenger
  4. Wayne
  5. Carroll
  6. *Open Week*
  7. Penn
  8. North Side
  9. *Championship Week*

Now Snider has an open week between two tough opponents. The optimal thing to do here would be to look for a lower caliber team (albeit one that still provides a enough of a challenge to give the kids coaching and growth opportunities) in the Northeast region to fill that gap and let the starters rest up between two hard games. However, if there are no teams that fit the bill for that week, I personally think it would be better for the Panthers to take a bye-week rather than fill that slot with a team of higher caliber, which would only increase the chance of injury and wear them down going into a trap game against the Legends, potentially spoiling their Week 9 dreams. This bye-week, paired with their game against the Kingsmen and the first round sectionals bye-week, sets up the Panthers for a great post season run.

Now let's look look at a situation to your point where Snider could suffer from this type of scheduling:

  1. Carroll
  2. Homestead
  3. South Side
  4. Wayne
  5. *Open Week*
  6. Concordia
  7. *Open Week*
  8. Northrop
  9. *Championship Week*

Snider has their two biggest divisional opponents in weeks 1 and 2. After that they are really struggling to find anyone to fill the gaps between a 6 week stretch of easy games. No one from the MIC, HCC, or just in the North has an open week that lines up with Snider's schedule. All they can find are low caliber teams, or teams from deep into Southern Indiana, and Ohio and Michigan (which pose their own logistical challenges). Snider is left scrambling and may be left potentially empty handed, playing a 6 week schedule that gives them absolutely nothing to challenge them, setting them up for failure for the SAC crown and the playoffs.

 

So to answer your question, it depends. If the second situation comes up often enough (more than once every 10 years), then it's not worth it. But I think it is more likely that the first situation will be what we would see. And, as I stated above, I personally think missing a game in that situation wouldn't actually be any different from filling that week with a team like New Haven. 

I like all the thought you put into this! I also like your plan for the SAC.

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37 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

I like all the thought you put into this! I also like your plan for the SAC.

I appreciate it. Don't get me started on the fact that Snider doesn't have a field either. I've got a plan for a multi-use facility for Snider and Lane Middle School to share that I've been talking about since I was a freshman and I can't seem to get anyone to give it the time of day lol

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2 hours ago, CLKeller16 said:

I guess it's situational. Let's look at a few hypothetical situations:

Let's say the SAC splits into Big School/Small School divisions based on enrollment (I personally would rather see an East/West split but I think this is more likely). The divisions would be as follows:

Big Schools                   Small Schools

Homestead                   Bishop Luers

Carroll                           Concordia

Northrop                       Bishop Dwenger

Snider                           South Side

Wayne                           North Side

Each team would play all others in their division, as well as two cross division games, and saving Week 9 for Championship Week. That covers 7 weeks of play, leaving 2 weeks open for out of conference play. Lets say, hypothetically, that Snider constructs a schedule that follows as such:

  1. Homestead
  2. Northrop
  3. Bishop Dwenger
  4. Wayne
  5. Carroll
  6. *Open Week*
  7. Penn
  8. North Side
  9. *Championship Week*

Now Snider has an open week between two tough opponents. The optimal thing to do here would be to look for a lower caliber team (albeit one that still provides a enough of a challenge to give the kids coaching and growth opportunities) in the Northeast region to fill that gap and let the starters rest up between two hard games. However, if there are no teams that fit the bill for that week, I personally think it would be better for the Panthers to take a bye-week rather than fill that slot with a team of higher caliber, which would only increase the chance of injury and wear them down going into a trap game against the Legends, potentially spoiling their Week 9 dreams. This bye-week, paired with their game against the Kingsmen and the first round sectionals bye-week, sets up the Panthers for a great post season run.

Now let's look look at a situation to your point where Snider could suffer from this type of scheduling:

  1. Carroll
  2. Homestead
  3. South Side
  4. Wayne
  5. *Open Week*
  6. Concordia
  7. *Open Week*
  8. Northrop
  9. *Championship Week*

Snider has their two biggest divisional opponents in weeks 1 and 2. After that they are really struggling to find anyone to fill the gaps between a 6 week stretch of easy games. No one from the MIC, HCC, or just in the North has an open week that lines up with Snider's schedule. All they can find are low caliber teams, or teams from deep into Southern Indiana, and Ohio and Michigan (which pose their own logistical challenges). Snider is left scrambling and may be left potentially empty handed, playing a 6 week schedule that gives them absolutely nothing to challenge them, setting them up for failure for the SAC crown and the playoffs.

 

So to answer your question, it depends. If the second situation comes up often enough (more than once every 10 years), then it's not worth it. But I think it is more likely that the first situation will be what we would see. And, as I stated above, I personally think missing a game in that situation wouldn't actually be any different from filling that week with a team like New Haven. 

Swap Wayne & Dwenger to benefit both?

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9 hours ago, Basementbias said:

Swap Wayne & Dwenger to benefit both?

Seeing Dwenger in the small division gave me pause. However, with the two crossover games, championship week, and two open dates, their schedule can be as strong as they want it to be. 

 

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17 hours ago, CLKeller16 said:

I never said it would be easy. But would you rather have the easy to set up schedule that gives you the same competition year in and year out, or put the effort in to construct a schedule that gives you the best opportunities for your young men to grow and become more competitive? I know when I was at Snider, I really looked forward to the Penn games. It was something different, something exciting, and brought out the best in our players.

Plus, it gave Snider a "measuring stick" on their competitive level for that year. Not knocking games they have against the other PT (power teams) in SAC. Snider could also look to Ohio or Michigan for opponents to play as well, if it ever happened??

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13 hours ago, CLKeller16 said:

I guess it's situational. Let's look at a few hypothetical situations:

Let's say the SAC splits into Big School/Small School divisions based on enrollment (I personally would rather see an East/West split but I think this is more likely). The divisions would be as follows:

Big Schools                   Small Schools

Homestead                   Bishop Luers

Carroll                           Concordia

Northrop                       Bishop Dwenger

Snider                           South Side

Wayne                           North Side

Each team would play all others in their division, as well as two cross division games, and saving Week 9 for Championship Week. That covers 7 weeks of play, leaving 2 weeks open for out of conference play. Lets say, hypothetically, that Snider constructs a schedule that follows as such:

  1. Homestead
  2. Northrop
  3. Bishop Dwenger
  4. Wayne
  5. Carroll
  6. *Open Week*
  7. Penn
  8. North Side
  9. *Championship Week*

Now Snider has an open week between two tough opponents. The optimal thing to do here would be to look for a lower caliber team (albeit one that still provides a enough of a challenge to give the kids coaching and growth opportunities) in the Northeast region to fill that gap and let the starters rest up between two hard games. However, if there are no teams that fit the bill for that week, I personally think it would be better for the Panthers to take a bye-week rather than fill that slot with a team of higher caliber, which would only increase the chance of injury and wear them down going into a trap game against the Legends, potentially spoiling their Week 9 dreams. This bye-week, paired with their game against the Kingsmen and the first round sectionals bye-week, sets up the Panthers for a great post season run.

Now let's look look at a situation to your point where Snider could suffer from this type of scheduling:

  1. Carroll
  2. Homestead
  3. South Side
  4. Wayne
  5. *Open Week*
  6. Concordia
  7. *Open Week*
  8. Northrop
  9. *Championship Week*

Snider has their two biggest divisional opponents in weeks 1 and 2. After that they are really struggling to find anyone to fill the gaps between a 6 week stretch of easy games. No one from the MIC, HCC, or just in the North has an open week that lines up with Snider's schedule. All they can find are low caliber teams, or teams from deep into Southern Indiana, and Ohio and Michigan (which pose their own logistical challenges). Snider is left scrambling and may be left potentially empty handed, playing a 6 week schedule that gives them absolutely nothing to challenge them, setting them up for failure for the SAC crown and the playoffs.

 

So to answer your question, it depends. If the second situation comes up often enough (more than once every 10 years), then it's not worth it. But I think it is more likely that the first situation will be what we would see. And, as I stated above, I personally think missing a game in that situation wouldn't actually be any different from filling that week with a team like New Haven. 

You could also set up a team from the other division that you don't play that year as a conference game, as a non-conference game as well.

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13 hours ago, Basementbias said:

Swap Wayne & Dwenger to benefit both?

I went off of enrollment for the big/small division split, and considering Dwenger only has an enrollment of around 1,000 and Wayne has about 1,650, it wouldn't make sense to swap them. Like I said above, I personally would like an East/West split which would look like this:

East Schools                        West Schools

Snider                                   Homestead

Concordia                            Carroll

Bishop Dwenger                  Northrop

North Side                           South Side

Bishop Luers                        Wayne

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Best argument for seeding something of the sectionals.

Sectional of Death with West Lafayette starting with Brebuef ... one of those two is one an done.  You'd think the IHSAA would at least buy a hot dog and Coke for the losing team.  Typically there's a meal when you get this type of evening.

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2 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Best argument for seeding something of the sectionals.

Sectional of Death with West Lafayette starting with Brebuef ... one of those two is one an done.  You'd think the IHSAA would at least buy a hot dog and Coke for the losing team.  Typically there's a meal when you get this type of evening.

AGREED...  With the selection of officials.  Could also be a 'situation'.  

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