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Memes - Abandon all hope - Ye who enter....


swordfish

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10 minutes ago, Bobref said:

This actually reminds me a little bit of The Man in the High Castle. If you don’t like a part of your history, just erase it and act like it never happened.

Frequently happens in the U.S. now.

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On 6/2/2020 at 1:21 PM, gonzoron said:

This is the MEME thread. No evidence is needed.

Yet four democrats raised a big fuss claiming this meme was not accurate while attempting to use Snopes to fact check the meme. Hilarious!

13330952_1790759907836562_3017976614172398876_n.jpg

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1 hour ago, Howe said:

Yet four democrats raised a big fuss claiming this meme was not accurate while attempting to use Snopes to fact check the meme. Hilarious!

13330952_1790759907836562_3017976614172398876_n.jpg

Dude. Patton never said that.. Once again you are sharing lies... Like always. 

 

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22 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

I am impressed that you knew the intent of statues erected in the late 1920's.  I have no clue the intent of erecting the Confederate monument in Garfield Park or anywhere else during that period.

I lived in Virginia for many years.  Those monuments erected had NOTHING to do with the Klan or racist views.  I think that is a weak stereotype.  

There is lots out there with some simple searches to the history of Confederate monuments along with lots of support for them to remain...so while your entitled to your opinion, it is not always reflected by historians....and please don't label them as racists or Klan folks.  

BTW, you are WAY off about all the statues of Lenin being removed.....they are all over former Soviet bloc countries (including Russia) and you just might even find a few in the US.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Vladimir_Lenin

 

https://www.atlantahistorycenter.com/research/confederate-monuments

 

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1 hour ago, TrojanDad said:

Uh oh....the big print now.  Time to get serious!!!  🤣

Nice effort to discredit.....no living in Virginia does not make one an expert.  Studying the Civil War as a hobby?  Perhaps more.  But living there did give me a perspective that I wouldn't have living in the midwest.  I've been to Gettysburg (many times), Manassas (lived there), Cold Harbor, Antietam, The Wilderness, Spotslyvania, Fredricksburg, Chancellorsville, Petersburg, Appomattox, etc.  Perhaps we can compare Civil War libraries one day.  Also, it was great having a close friend that just retired as a high school American history, in which the Civil War was and is his primary focus and hobby....I have learned much from him over the years.  

I laugh today when people try to paint southerners with one big stereotype stroke.  You may find this hard to believe...but not all believed in slavery, not all had slaves, not all were plantation owners.  They were born and lived their entire lives in one area...and people as you can expect were loyal to their homes...and to their families.  Just like not all from the north believed in freedom for slaves.  

So let's take the monument in Indy.....what was the intent behind that monument.  Was it to honor slavery?  Was it to honor the Confederacy?  The answer is no.  It was to honor over 1600 men that lost their lives while in captivity here in Indy and were buried in unmarked mass graves.  It was a travesty that occurred to people under the care of the US government.  A monument erected in 1912 to pay tribute to those men who dies of sickness and starvation.  Something that should have NEVER have happened.  (I went with caps in lieu of giant font)  I don't think we should ever forget the intent of that monument and what it represents....any POW should never be treated in this ugly fashion...nothing justifies it.  Where was the honor?  

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/indianapolis/2020/06/04/mayor-announces-plan-remove-confederate-monument-garfield-park/3144181001/

Your big font...I am still laughing.  I NEVER (caps again) stated that no Lenin monuments weren't removed.  Simply stated that a great many still remain in Russia and former Soviet blocks, outside of the former Soviet Union...and sadly even one in NYC.  (love how the current NYC mayor pushes for the removal of Christopher Columbus statues, but never addressed Lenin)  You attempted to whitewash with the Lenin comment and pointed out that a great many are still in place.  Sadly, Lenin and Stalin's regimes led to mass genocide of their own people....can we truly say that about Robert E Lee, Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson, James Longstreet, J.E.B Stuart?  All West Point grads, all veterans of the US Army, the first 3 veterans of the Mexican War, the last fighting Indians in Texas for the US?

Its fruitless to argue to this topic...topple all of those statues by not examining intent of why they are there.....heck, start burning books.....go after the founders of this country that did own slaves.....maybe future generations simply won't have a clue as to the truths.  We will make it "simple" and impose our own truths....because isn't that what really matter to a large segment of the US today?

Then why refer to living in Virginia if you were not using it to add some level of credibility to what you posted? But you did claim in one sentence to know what the monuments were not meant to be, but the previous sentence you stated you had no idea what the intent was. lol......did the cider go hard on you? lol

Never did I even attempt to paint all Southerners with one broad stroke. I was referring to those that get their panties in a wad over the removal of the statues, especially the ones that show up at the rallies with their confederate flags and nazi flags. 
I got a kick too out of the large font. You can backtrack all you want to, but your statement was I was way off on my claim. I just countered it. You sure don’t like being called out do you? 
Toppling statues equates to burning books.....yeah ok. That may be your funniest line yet. Nice stretch though. I think even Muda would be impressed with that reach. That comment actually leads to a point I made. There are museums dedicated to what has happened. There are thousands of books written about the events of that war. But oh my God, we cannot tear down the statues that glorify those individuals. 
I get the intent behind the monument in Indy. There actually is a monument where they are buried now, which is fine. They are not nor ever were buried in Garfield Park. The reason it is there is because of the klan......enough said. Again....plenty of details are written about them and what happened to them. Removal of the monument does not and will not erase that. 

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1 hour ago, TrojanDad said:

https://www.historians.org/news-and-advocacy/aha-advocacy/aha-statement-on-confederate-monuments

This is where I am.....I don't think it has to be an all or nothing proposition.  I don't believe all were erected under the same motivations.

The tragic events in Charlottesville, Virginia, have re-ignited debate about the place of Confederate monuments in public spaces, as well as related conversations about the role of Confederate, neo-Nazi, and white supremacist imagery in American political culture. Historians have been a vocal presence in these discussions, and the American Historical Association is compiling an ongoing bibliography of the diverse perspectives of AHA members.The AHA has also released the following statement, approved by AHA Council August 28, 2017, about the role of history and historians in these public conversations. Rather than seeking to provide definitive answers to the questions posed by individual monuments, the AHA emphasizes the imperative of understanding historical context in any consideration of removing or recontextualizing monuments, or renaming public spaces.

What's next?  Remove all statues and monuments for previous slave owners?  Change the names of cities, towns, schools, etc?  Washington, Jefferson and others were slave owners.  They were from and lived in Virginia? Is it time to remove their monuments and statues?  Rename Washington DC?  Rename George Washington University?  (they did eliminate George as their mascot and eliminate their nickname from the Colonials)  Why stop just at Confederates?

In that same site, they lay out exactly what they are referring to in terms of looking at the historical context ... and it is not the idea that the brakes should be put on until that answer is completely and definitively discovered.  Rather than focusing on the stopping point, it might be good to figure where to start ... and some of those are extremely easy.  As a matter of fact, if the approach was, "It is acknowledged that there are MANY of these monuments that exist for other-than-historical reasons" as opposed to "You want to erase history," it would provide a starting point.  From that same site, where you quoted their stance, note that they actually give a good accounting of the general classification of the statues/monuments and the reasoning behind many of them.  Per their own statement, they don't seek to address each and every one, but the first place to start is to recognize the history behind the plethora of these and to be very honest in recognizing that."  From their site, https://www.atlantahistorycenter.com/research/confederate-monuments/historical-introduction-confederate-monuments-and-symbolism ... emphasis is mine:

When discussing Confederate monuments, it is useful to group them into three general categories. The first category is Phase One monuments, or early funereal monuments erected from the 1860s through the 1880s. Often placed in cemeteries and taking the form of obelisks, arches, or fountains, these monuments were typically intended to commemorate Confederate dead. Usually erected by ladies’ memorial associations, these monuments served as centerpieces for activities, such as Confederate Memorial Day. The profound impact that the Civil War had on the white Southern population must be considered when examining these monuments. At least 20% of all white men of military age in the Confederacy died during the war. Because almost every white family in the South experienced loss, there was a great desire to create mourning spaces.

The majority of remaining Confederate monuments are of a different character and purpose. These Phase Two monuments, erected from the 1890s through the 1930s, coincide with the expansion and consolidation of the white supremacist policies of the Jim Crow era. These monuments often feature celebratory images meant to justify the Confederate cause as a moral victory. Put simply: an equestrian statue of a Confederate general in front of a courthouse or capitol building is not about mourning or loss. It is about power and who was in charge. The strategic placement of monuments at public sites was meant as an official and permanent affirmation of the Lost Cause of the Confederacy.

Lost Cause mythology promoted the idea that the Confederacy achieved a moral victory in the Civil War. The myth denied the role of slavery as the primary cause of the war and ignored freedom as an achievement of U.S. victory. The Lost Cause myth tries to delete the African American perspective from the historical narrative. It discounts the fact that a significant number of Southerners (if not a majority) were opposed to the ideology and concept of the Confederacy, given the stark reality that nearly 40% of the Southern population was enslaved.

A new period of Confederate monuments (which we call Phase Three monuments) followed the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision mandating desegregation in the case Brown vs. Board of Education in 1954. As a show of “massive resistance,” segregationists revived Confederate imagery. For example, the Confederate battle flag was incorporated into the Georgia state flag in 1956, a Confederate battle flag was flown over the state capitol building in South Carolina in 1961, and new monuments were created. These included Stone Mountain, purchased by the state of Georgia in 1958 specifically to create a Confederate monument. Confederate imagery was used as a rallying point for proponents of segregation.

Understanding the historical context of Confederate monuments is an important starting point when discussing possible actions taken in response to them.

 

Rather focus on where we stop, it is appropriate to ask, in the 21st century, where do we start?  There are plenty of those Phase Two and Phase Three monuments, statues, etc. that are low-hanging fruit for starting points.  There may be some of those Phase One statues that also are in that Phase Two/Three majority grouping and there could certainly be a small number of Phase Two/Three statues that fall into more of a "mourning space" category ... although note that the reasoning behind the Phase Two/Three categorizing is less about when they came into being and WHY they came into being in those periods.  There are even some that may well be classified Phase One that really became Phase Two because of movement to intimidate or from mourning space to power space.  It's just like doing spring cleaning.  Very few people ask "When are we going to stop cleaning?"  They instead start with the stuff that is broken, not wanted, obviously a bad choice when purchased, no longer necessary.  Are there some things that give us problems during spring cleaning that can't be easily categorized?  Certainly, and I'll give a direct example of that from my own house.  I have five kids ... the youngest kid is 9 and my oldest turns 22 in a week.  We still have the baby bed in our garage that every one of them slept in as a baby.  My wife just cannot part with it at this point.  It can't be donated due to safety issues and it isn't something that we would feel comfortable giving to a neighbor/relative/friend because the safety component can't be guaranteed.  With that said, it no longer has a place in the main house as its usefulness is no longer there; however, my wife is still emotionally attached to it, so it resides in the garage for the time being.  As a compromise with me ... I'm not attached to it and it's just taking up room in the garage ... my wife has looked at perhaps having her dad, who is a wood worker, converting it into something like a light stand or plant stand or something else.  With that said, there are also plenty of other things that we've had from the kids that have been donated, given away, sold, thrown way, etc.  If we stopped to ask the question, where does the spring cleaning end or had gotten hung up on that one baby bed, we would have never progressed forward.

Ultimately it's about acknowledgement that there is a major issue there and starting to do something about.  Doesn't have to be all or none, but the more that the idea persists to stonewall the issue, no pun intended, the more the response on the other side gets pushed toward all-or-none and more extreme expected response.  There then becomes little likelihood that it either gets worse or ends in a result that seems damn near draconian in nature.

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43 minutes ago, foxbat said:

In that same site, they lay out exactly what they are referring to in terms of looking at the historical context ... and it is not the idea that the brakes should be put on until that answer is completely and definitively discovered.  Rather than focusing on the stopping point, it might be good to figure where to start ... and some of those are extremely easy.  As a matter of fact, if the approach was, "It is acknowledged that there are MANY of these monuments that exist for other-than-historical reasons" as opposed to "You want to erase history," it would provide a starting point.  From that same site, where you quoted their stance, note that they actually give a good accounting of the general classification of the statues/monuments and the reasoning behind many of them.  Per their own statement, they don't seek to address each and every one, but the first place to start is to recognize the history behind the plethora of these and to be very honest in recognizing that."  From their site, https://www.atlantahistorycenter.com/research/confederate-monuments/historical-introduction-confederate-monuments-and-symbolism ... emphasis is mine:

When discussing Confederate monuments, it is useful to group them into three general categories. The first category is Phase One monuments, or early funereal monuments erected from the 1860s through the 1880s. Often placed in cemeteries and taking the form of obelisks, arches, or fountains, these monuments were typically intended to commemorate Confederate dead. Usually erected by ladies’ memorial associations, these monuments served as centerpieces for activities, such as Confederate Memorial Day. The profound impact that the Civil War had on the white Southern population must be considered when examining these monuments. At least 20% of all white men of military age in the Confederacy died during the war. Because almost every white family in the South experienced loss, there was a great desire to create mourning spaces.

The majority of remaining Confederate monuments are of a different character and purpose. These Phase Two monuments, erected from the 1890s through the 1930s, coincide with the expansion and consolidation of the white supremacist policies of the Jim Crow era. These monuments often feature celebratory images meant to justify the Confederate cause as a moral victory. Put simply: an equestrian statue of a Confederate general in front of a courthouse or capitol building is not about mourning or loss. It is about power and who was in charge. The strategic placement of monuments at public sites was meant as an official and permanent affirmation of the Lost Cause of the Confederacy.

Lost Cause mythology promoted the idea that the Confederacy achieved a moral victory in the Civil War. The myth denied the role of slavery as the primary cause of the war and ignored freedom as an achievement of U.S. victory. The Lost Cause myth tries to delete the African American perspective from the historical narrative. It discounts the fact that a significant number of Southerners (if not a majority) were opposed to the ideology and concept of the Confederacy, given the stark reality that nearly 40% of the Southern population was enslaved.

A new period of Confederate monuments (which we call Phase Three monuments) followed the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision mandating desegregation in the case Brown vs. Board of Education in 1954. As a show of “massive resistance,” segregationists revived Confederate imagery. For example, the Confederate battle flag was incorporated into the Georgia state flag in 1956, a Confederate battle flag was flown over the state capitol building in South Carolina in 1961, and new monuments were created. These included Stone Mountain, purchased by the state of Georgia in 1958 specifically to create a Confederate monument. Confederate imagery was used as a rallying point for proponents of segregation.

Understanding the historical context of Confederate monuments is an important starting point when discussing possible actions taken in response to them.

 

Rather focus on where we stop, it is appropriate to ask, in the 21st century, where do we start?  There are plenty of those Phase Two and Phase Three monuments, statues, etc. that are low-hanging fruit for starting points.  There may be some of those Phase One statues that also are in that Phase Two/Three majority grouping and there could certainly be a small number of Phase Two/Three statues that fall into more of a "mourning space" category ... although note that the reasoning behind the Phase Two/Three categorizing is less about when they came into being and WHY they came into being in those periods.  There are even some that may well be classified Phase One that really became Phase Two because of movement to intimidate or from mourning space to power space.  It's just like doing spring cleaning.  Very few people ask "When are we going to stop cleaning?"  They instead start with the stuff that is broken, not wanted, obviously a bad choice when purchased, no longer necessary.  Are there some things that give us problems during spring cleaning that can't be easily categorized?  Certainly, and I'll give a direct example of that from my own house.  I have five kids ... the youngest kid is 9 and my oldest turns 22 in a week.  We still have the baby bed in our garage that every one of them slept in as a baby.  My wife just cannot part with it at this point.  It can't be donated due to safety issues and it isn't something that we would feel comfortable giving to a neighbor/relative/friend because the safety component can't be guaranteed.  With that said, it no longer has a place in the main house as its usefulness is no longer there; however, my wife is still emotionally attached to it, so it resides in the garage for the time being.  As a compromise with me ... I'm not attached to it and it's just taking up room in the garage ... my wife has looked at perhaps having her dad, who is a wood worker, converting it into something like a light stand or plant stand or something else.  With that said, there are also plenty of other things that we've had from the kids that have been donated, given away, sold, thrown way, etc.  If we stopped to ask the question, where does the spring cleaning end or had gotten hung up on that one baby bed, we would have never progressed forward.

Ultimately it's about acknowledgement that there is a major issue there and starting to do something about.  Doesn't have to be all or none, but the more that the idea persists to stonewall the issue, no pun intended, the more the response on the other side gets pushed toward all-or-none and more extreme expected response.  There then becomes little likelihood that it either gets worse or ends in a result that seems damn near draconian in nature.

Great explanation fox....did you live in Virginia too? 😄

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46 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Great explanation fox....did you live in Virginia too? 😄

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. 😀

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Hmm. Attempting to equate throwing out old baby beds with a monument at an Indianapolis park which recognizes prisoners of war that died who due to government neglect and malfeasance.  Why do so many people want to cover up this stain on the North's victory over the South in the Civil War?

 

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Memorial to those who died at Camp Douglas.....placed where those soldiers were buried. 

Confederate Mound Oak Woods Cemetery--Civil War Era National ...

And from Andersonville, GA, a National Historic Site; now part of the memorial dedicated to all American prisoners of war. 

https://www.nps.gov/ande/learn/index.htm 

The key is that both these monuments are in the place where they should be; not just some random place, especially a place chosen by the KKK. These are appropriate ways to remember what had happened. As stated, there is a marker to identify where the soldiers from Camp Morton are buried. 

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