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Explain to me again ???


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I know there is already a thread out there discussing the upcoming Sectional draws - so feel free to merge this or whatever if needed - but explain to me again the argument AGAINST seeding the tourney?? 

Bobref will say it will ultimately lead to a qualification format - but it doesn't HAVE to. 

As a former wrestling coach - this has always baffled me that we refuse to seed the tourney. 

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13 minutes ago, jets said:

I know there is already a thread out there discussing the upcoming Sectional draws - so feel free to merge this or whatever if needed - but explain to me again the argument AGAINST seeding the tourney?? 

Bobref will say it will ultimately lead to a qualification format - but it doesn't HAVE to. 

As a former wrestling coach - this has always baffled me that we refuse to seed the tourney. 

Not sure there is an argument against it as much as a lack of agreement on HOW to do it.  I could be mistaken however.

Sagarin is not an exact science and doing it based on win/loss record would give schools incentive to schedule meaningless regular season games to pad their record.

I could be way off base here though.  I’m willing to admit that.

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10 minutes ago, temptation said:

Not sure there is an argument against it as much as a lack of agreement on HOW to do it.  I could be mistaken however.

Sagarin is not an exact science and doing it based on win/loss record would give schools incentive to schedule meaningless regular season games to pad their record.

I could be way off base here though.  I’m willing to admit that.

Maybe we could go the route of the CFP and seed based off of the AP or IFCA Polls?

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20 minutes ago, temptation said:

Not sure there is an argument against it as much as a lack of agreement on HOW to do it.  I could be mistaken however.

Sagarin is not an exact science and doing it based on win/loss record would give schools incentive to schedule meaningless regular season games to pad their record.

I could be way off base here though.  I’m willing to admit that.

The HOW is really what is holding it up?? Are you serious?? I surely hope that isn't the case....there are I'm sure hundreds of people that could set up some type of criteria. Here, I'll start

Seeding criteria:

1. Head to head match-up

2. Common opponents

3. Coaches vote/discretion 

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Seed one and two.  Draw the rest.  It's the best of both worlds.  We set the stage for a great championship game, and we allow the worst teams a chance to draw an opponent they can compete with in round one.

And if we can seed a 12 person wrestling weight class then surely we can figure out how to identify the two best in an 8 team sectional.

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1 minute ago, globemstr3 said:

Folks are too lazy to do it is all. Use AP/Coaches/ Strength of schedule as the process. SOS will stop padded schedules Then again if you dont believe polls then ya prob dont believe in SOS. Drawing from a hat is caveman stuff IMHO.

I don't disagree with the concept of seeding, but the AP poll is always somewhat questionable and Sagarin / SOS is really no longer as reliable as it once was bc 2 of the top conferences in the state (SAC and SIAC) are closed, which screws the numbers up significantly. Here are the Sagarin numbers for Sectional 24... 

SECTIONAL 24
SECT.
RANK
STATE
RANK
TEAM OVERALL
RATING
SCHEDULE
STRENGTH RANK
RECENT
RATING   RANK
PREDICTOR
RATING   RANK
1 59 Northview (5-1) 70.05 59.39 69 69.57 61 70.02 59
2 101 Boonville (1-5) 58.58 66.03 48 55.82 107 60.10 98
3 234 Jasper (7-0) 23.15 0.28 307 26.11 221 20.30 240
4 247 Evansville Memorial (6-1) 19.25 -1.09 314 19.91 245 17.97 247
5 296 Evansville Reitz (2-5) -1.92 3.09 305 -4.06 299 -1.97 293
6 309 Evansville Central (2-5) -8.63 -0.26 312 -9.14 308 -9.52 310
7 311 Evansville Harrison (1-6) -11.02 4.83 304 -11.96 311 -11.75 312

Linton beat Boonville by 21. You think Boonville is 5 TDs better than Jasper or  Memorial? I'd pick Reitz, Central and Harrison to beat Boonville this year. 

 

And actually, Sectional 40 is even better because Mater Dei is the only SIAC school...

SECTIONAL 40
SECT.
RANK
STATE
RANK
TEAM OVERALL
RATING
SCHEDULE
STRENGTH RANK
RECENT
RATING   RANK
PREDICTOR
RATING   RANK
1 29 Linton-Stockton  79.71 56.31 83 81.22 24 78.71 29
2 78 North Posey 64.54 48.25 116 65.41 69 63.59 80
3 107 North Knox 56.09 40.44 174 56.48 105 55.47 107
4 124 Tell City 51.54 53.37 92 53.08 115 50.01 129
5 132 South Spencer 48.74 55.51 84 48.48 132 48.43 137
6 169 Forest Park 39.36 49.45 110 38.96 172 39.00 170
7 278 Evansville Mater Dei 8.57 2.49 306 10.93 271 5.85 282
8 285 Crawford County 3.22 24.98 258 5.69 282 0.20 290

With wins to close out the year over Harrison and Reitz, MD will very likely drop to #8 in Sectional 40.  If given the choice to play MD as the #8 seed or take its chances with ping pong balls, wouldn't #1 seed Linton gladly take the ping pong balls?

 

 

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To the original question, I think the only thing that has come from the IHSAA is that with an all in format, draws are blind draws. To be honest, I think that is the ONLY reason I can recall for not seeding it. I agree though that it should be seeded. I think the discussion has been around longer than this digest has been 🙂 There really is no logical reason to not seed. In times where programs are struggling financially, including the IHSAA itself, the smart move would be to have the bigger matchups later. More neutral fans are likely to attend after their team's season has ended compared to having marquee matchups in the first round. Since playoff ticket revenue is shared among schools, it is obvious how to make the pot as large as possible. 

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10 minutes ago, FinePrint said:

Seed one and two.  Draw the rest.  It's the best of both worlds.  We set the stage for a great championship game, and we allow the worst teams a chance to draw an opponent they can compete with in round one.

And if we can seed a 12 person wrestling weight class then surely we can figure out how to identify the two best in an 8 team sectional.

The worst teams would always draw into #1 (unless its a bye Sectional) and #2. At least now the teams who are consistently at the bottom have a chance to draw another struggling program and get a W.  IMO the only way to do it is have the coaches in the Sectional do the seeding.  I trust the coaches.

No question seeding gives the best chance for quality championship games and the best chance for schools to maximize Sectional gate, which is the only level where all teams get a cut.  

 

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52 minutes ago, tango said:

 

I don't disagree with the concept of seeding, but the AP poll is always somewhat questionable and Sagarin / SOS is really no longer as reliable as it once was bc 2 of the top conferences in the state (SAC and SIAC) are closed, which screws the numbers up significantly. Here are the Sagarin numbers for Sectional 24... 

SECTIONAL 24
SECT.
RANK
STATE
RANK
TEAM OVERALL
RATING
SCHEDULE
STRENGTH RANK
RECENT
RATING   RANK
PREDICTOR
RATING   RANK
1 59 Northview (5-1) 70.05 59.39 69 69.57 61 70.02 59
2 101 Boonville (1-5) 58.58 66.03 48 55.82 107 60.10 98
3 234 Jasper (7-0) 23.15 0.28 307 26.11 221 20.30 240
4 247 Evansville Memorial (6-1) 19.25 -1.09 314 19.91 245 17.97 247
5 296 Evansville Reitz (2-5) -1.92 3.09 305 -4.06 299 -1.97 293
6 309 Evansville Central (2-5) -8.63 -0.26 312 -9.14 308 -9.52 310
7 311 Evansville Harrison (1-6) -11.02 4.83 304 -11.96 311 -11.75 312

Linton beat Boonville by 21. You think Boonville is 5 TDs better than Jasper or  Memorial? I'd pick Reitz, Central and Harrison to beat Boonville this year. 

 

And actually, Sectional 40 is even better because Mater Dei is the only SIAC school...

SECTIONAL 40
SECT.
RANK
STATE
RANK
TEAM OVERALL
RATING
SCHEDULE
STRENGTH RANK
RECENT
RATING   RANK
PREDICTOR
RATING   RANK
1 29 Linton-Stockton  79.71 56.31 83 81.22 24 78.71 29
2 78 North Posey 64.54 48.25 116 65.41 69 63.59 80
3 107 North Knox 56.09 40.44 174 56.48 105 55.47 107
4 124 Tell City 51.54 53.37 92 53.08 115 50.01 129
5 132 South Spencer 48.74 55.51 84 48.48 132 48.43 137
6 169 Forest Park 39.36 49.45 110 38.96 172 39.00 170
7 278 Evansville Mater Dei 8.57 2.49 306 10.93 271 5.85 282
8 285 Crawford County 3.22 24.98 258 5.69 282 0.20 290

With wins to close out the year over Harrison and Reitz, MD will very likely drop to #8 in Sectional 40.  If given the choice to play MD as the #8 seed or take its chances with ping pong balls, wouldn't #1 seed Linton gladly take the ping pong balls?

 

 

Thats not the point at all. IF MD is in fact the last seed then so be it. Nobody believes that in fact its a 60/40 MD edge IMO. Im sorry the numbers don't work for the Evansville teams. As I said before drawing out of a hat is caveman. SEED EM! Let IHSAA tell us why MD is an 8 with a straight face.

 

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1 hour ago, CLKeller16 said:

Maybe we could go the route of the CFP and seed based off of the AP or IFCA Polls?

That would be a bad idea. Russ Isaacs said it best.............."we're #1 by default." A team from Indy loses one game and they drop in the polls behind an undefeated team from Fort Wayne or Lafayette. The AP poll goes by record only. The coaches poll is better, but not by much. Most coaches are too busy coaching their team and studying who they are playing next, versus worrying themselves about who the Top 10 teams are in their class.

Outside of the Sagarin Ratings, the old GID polls of the past are the most accurate that I've seen. You've got a bunch of high school football fans on this forum that live and breath what is going on, not only with the team they root for, but also what is happening statewide. The GID polls, when we were applying them, were FAR more accurate than the AP or the Coaches Poll. And outside of the two closed conferences, the Sagarin Ratings are by far the most accurate thing we currently have. 

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1 hour ago, tango said:

The worst teams would always draw into #1 (unless its a bye Sectional) and #2. At least now the teams who are consistently at the bottom have a chance to draw another struggling program and get a W.  IMO the only way to do it is have the coaches in the Sectional do the seeding.  I trust the coaches.

No question seeding gives the best chance for quality championship games and the best chance for schools to maximize Sectional gate, which is the only level where all teams get a cut.  

 

If you seed all 8 teams, the worst two would always play a 1 and 2 seed, making for ridiculously lopsided games in round one.  Not so if you seed the top 2 and draw the remaining teams.  A zero win team would have a 71% chance of NOT playing a 1 or 2 seed in round one.  Best of both worlds.

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15 minutes ago, BTF said:

That would be a bad idea. Russ Isaacs said it best.............."we're #1 by default." A team from Indy loses one game and they drop in the polls behind an undefeated team from Fort Wayne or Lafayette. The AP poll goes by record only. The coaches poll is better, but not by much. Most coaches are too busy coaching their team and studying who they are playing next, versus worrying themselves about who the Top 10 teams are in their class.

Outside of the Sagarin Ratings, the old GID polls of the past are the most accurate that I've seen. You've got a bunch of high school football fans on this forum that live and breath what is going on, not only with the team they root for, but also what is happening statewide. The GID polls, when we were applying them, were FAR more accurate than the AP or the Coaches Poll. And outside of the two closed conferences, the Sagarin Ratings are by far the most accurate thing we currently have. 

You can't use polls to seed a tournament anyway.  Polls only rank the top teams, not all 8 from a sectional.  Unless you're seeding only 1 & 2.  Then the IHSAA should let us (GID posters) pick the top two from each sectional!  😃 And let's limit that to only GID financial boosters!  I see this being a huge WIN for GID in the long run!!  Ha!

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12 minutes ago, FinePrint said:

You can't use polls to seed a tournament anyway.  Polls only rank the top teams, not all 8 from a sectional.  Unless you're seeding only 1 & 2.  Then the IHSAA should let us (GID posters) pick the top two from each sectional!  😃 And let's limit that to only GID financial boosters!  I see this being a huge WIN for GID in the long run!!  Ha!

Great idea.  Boosters only.  State Law!!

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5 hours ago, tango said:

 

I don't disagree with the concept of seeding, but the AP poll is always somewhat questionable and Sagarin / SOS is really no longer as reliable as it once was bc 2 of the top conferences in the state (SAC and SIAC) are closed, which screws the numbers up significantly. Here are the Sagarin numbers for Sectional 24... 

SECTIONAL 24
SECT.
RANK
STATE
RANK
TEAM OVERALL
RATING
SCHEDULE
STRENGTH RANK
RECENT
RATING   RANK
PREDICTOR
RATING   RANK
1 59 Northview (5-1) 70.05 59.39 69 69.57 61 70.02 59
2 101 Boonville (1-5) 58.58 66.03 48 55.82 107 60.10 98
3 234 Jasper (7-0) 23.15 0.28 307 26.11 221 20.30 240
4 247 Evansville Memorial (6-1) 19.25 -1.09 314 19.91 245 17.97 247
5 296 Evansville Reitz (2-5) -1.92 3.09 305 -4.06 299 -1.97 293
6 309 Evansville Central (2-5) -8.63 -0.26 312 -9.14 308 -9.52 310
7 311 Evansville Harrison (1-6) -11.02 4.83 304 -11.96 311 -11.75 312

Linton beat Boonville by 21. You think Boonville is 5 TDs better than Jasper or  Memorial? I'd pick Reitz, Central and Harrison to beat Boonville this year. 

 

And actually, Sectional 40 is even better because Mater Dei is the only SIAC school...

SECTIONAL 40
SECT.
RANK
STATE
RANK
TEAM OVERALL
RATING
SCHEDULE
STRENGTH RANK
RECENT
RATING   RANK
PREDICTOR
RATING   RANK
1 29 Linton-Stockton  79.71 56.31 83 81.22 24 78.71 29
2 78 North Posey 64.54 48.25 116 65.41 69 63.59 80
3 107 North Knox 56.09 40.44 174 56.48 105 55.47 107
4 124 Tell City 51.54 53.37 92 53.08 115 50.01 129
5 132 South Spencer 48.74 55.51 84 48.48 132 48.43 137
6 169 Forest Park 39.36 49.45 110 38.96 172 39.00 170
7 278 Evansville Mater Dei 8.57 2.49 306 10.93 271 5.85 282
8 285 Crawford County 3.22 24.98 258 5.69 282 0.20 290

With wins to close out the year over Harrison and Reitz, MD will very likely drop to #8 in Sectional 40.  If given the choice to play MD as the #8 seed or take its chances with ping pong balls, wouldn't #1 seed Linton gladly take the ping pong balls?

 

 

Wow….  The two closed conferences are having the most disruptive effect on Sagarin that I can ever recall. 

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12 hours ago, Donnie Baker said:

Swear to God! But seriously, how is Madder Days #7 in that sectional?

Number one for sure...

8 hours ago, Gridiron_Junkie said:

I say this every year. Just leave it alone. Who cares whether the best match up comes in week 1 versus week 3 of sectionals.

exactly...you are going to have to play them in one of the weeks anyway...who cares which week...

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10 hours ago, Gridiron_Junkie said:

I say this every year. Just leave it alone. Who cares whether the best match up comes in week 1 versus week 3 of sectionals.

 

2 hours ago, NorthKnox94 said:

Number one for sure...

exactly...you are going to have to play them in one of the weeks anyway...who cares which week...

Maybe an extra week or 2 and advancing in the tournament may not mean much to you guys - but it might to the senior that doesn't want to hang up his pads and have to watch a 2-7 team advance. 

It also gives a little meaning to a good regular season. 

Every single wrestling coach is shaking his head and laughing that we can't get this accomplished. 

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Should just have all the coaches from a regional vote on seeding.  Seed it 1-4 and then random draw the other 12 for the matchups.

 

people get caught up on sectionals but forget that half of the frustration is that some sectionals are loaded and others are rather light. Might as well just break it up into groups of 16 teams 
 

seeding by regional also gives the tournament plenty of variance for year to year matchups.

Edited by DumfriesYMCA
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10 minutes ago, jets said:

 

Maybe an extra week or 2 and advancing in the tournament may not mean much to you guys - but it might to the senior that doesn't want to hang up his pads and have to watch a 2-7 team advance. 

It also gives a little meaning to a good regular season. 

Every single wrestling coach is shaking his head and laughing that we can't get this accomplished. 

I have seen a lot of wrestling coaches walk away from a seeding meeting not happy!

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18 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Should just have all the coaches from a regional vote on seeding.  Seed it 1-4 and then random draw the other 12 for the matchups.

 

people get caught up on sectionals but forget that half of the frustration is that some sectionals are loaded and others are rather light. Might as well just break it up into groups of 16 teams 
 

seeding by regional also gives the tournament plenty of variance for year to year matchups.

This is the 1st time I've heard a proposal like this and I absolutely love it. Combine with the sectional you'd play in regionals, and seed it 1-4. New & fun matchups almost every year! 

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13 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Should just have all the coaches from a regional vote on seeding.  Seed it 1-4 and then random draw the other 12 for the matchups.

 

people get caught up on sectionals but forget that half of the frustration is that some sectionals are loaded and others are rather light. Might as well just break it up into groups of 16 teams 
 

seeding by regional also gives the tournament plenty of variance for year to year matchups.

I like the idea but with all-in you can get some really unnecessary travel for Round 1. For example you could see Ev Bosse go to Lawrenceburg and Ev Harrison go to East Central for a Rd 1 game. 
 

If those teams had qualified for a playoff appearance like OH or IL I could see it. Otherwise it just seems like a bus trip that is way too long. 

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7 minutes ago, MICFan34 said:

This is the 1st time I've heard a proposal like this and I absolutely love it. Combine with the sectional you'd play in regionals, and seed it 1-4. New & fun matchups almost every year! 

I think it’s the lowest risk option + gives everyone something of what they want 

 

realistically you’re only seeding the top 16 teams of each class.  You’re not giving them any guarantees they face the worst team in the regional…the only certainty is that the top 4 teams of a regional won’t play each other unless it’s a sectional championship or better…which is kinda the biggest complaint

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